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paulspendel
When I got the Joan Fitzsimons files released I was surprised to learn the builders kept going to Cotchford farm til the end of July 1969. Not Keylock was the main looter but Morris Tucker was, a violent thug from Eastergate and a protected police informant (liaison officer: Don Rambridge, who was involved in the Redlands raid). Mo sold the stuff and divided the money between Keylock, Thorogood and Betsworth. Later on in life he owned a caravan park in Exeter and died in 2001, the day after he sold the caravan park and became a millionaire.

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paulspendel
When I got the Joan Fitzsimons files released I was surprised to learn the builders kept going to Cotchford farm til the end of July 1969. Not Keylock was the main looter but Morris Tucker was, a violent thug from Eastergate and a protected police informant (liaison officer: Don Rambridge, who was involved in the Redlands raid). Mo sold the stuff and divided the money between Keylock, Thorogood and Betsworth. Later on in life he owned a caravan park in Exeter and died in 2001, the day after he sold the caravan park and became a millionaire.

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Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

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jbwelda
>There wasn't any collector's circle in 1969 to speak of.


This simply isn't true. By 1969 the Rolling Stones had been international celebrities for five years and you can bet your bottom dollar people collected anything they touched or breathed upon. Usually didn't try to sell it though, mostly hoarded it for the memories. So there might not have been much of a collectors' market, but there were certainly a lot of collectors of pop music related items.

jb

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gotdablouse

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Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

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Silver Dagger

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gotdablouse

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Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

Ha ha. Not enough.

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paulspendel
The bonfire did happen.
Michael Martin, Brian’s gardener, confirmed this.
They had all the time in the world to do the looting, so they must have burnt specific things for a reason. Such like Brian’s bible. The bonfire is one of the things that remain a mystery to me...

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paulspendel
When I got the Joan Fitzsimons files released I was surprised to learn the builders kept going to Cotchford farm til the end of July 1969. Not Keylock was the main looter but Morris Tucker was, a violent thug from Eastergate and a protected police informant (liaison officer: Don Rambridge, who was involved in the Redlands raid). Mo sold the stuff and divided the money between Keylock, Thorogood and Betsworth. Later on in life he owned a caravan park in Exeter and died in 2001, the day after he sold the caravan park and became a millionaire.

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paulspendel
No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

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Mathijs

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paulspendel
No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

There are no proven facts of any looting. Fact is that most of Brian's belongings have ended up in collector's hands by legal means -that is it has been sold or given away by the Jones' estate. This does not only include low(er) value stuff from the house, but also the more expensive stuff like his instruments.

The simple fact that most stuff has turned up over the years through legal means is the very simple but very factual prove that nothing has been looted.

Mathijs[/qu

In my experience, auction houses do very little - if anything, to determine
a consignor has acquired the items legally. They are more concerned whether the
item is authentic. For example if the auction house was told the item came from a
person who worked for Brian - then this would be enough.

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Mathijs

There wasn't any foul play, there wasn't any looting. A guy drowned, his stuff went to the legal owners, and the builders finished the renovation. That's it folks. Nothing more to it.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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paulspendel
No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

There are no proven facts of any looting. Fact is that most of Brian's belongings have ended up in collector's hands by legal means -that is it has been sold or given away by the Jones' estate. This does not only include low(er) value stuff from the house, but also the more expensive stuff like his instruments.

The simple fact that most stuff has turned up over the years through legal means is the very simple but very factual prove that nothing has been looted.

Mathijs

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jlowe

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Silver Dagger

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gotdablouse

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Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

Ha ha. Not enough.

If Keylock knew that with a deceased Brian 'his meal ticket would have gone' he along with the others must have known a living Brian was 'worth more'.
Therefore, does it destroy the murder/manslaughter theories?

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paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

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jlowe

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paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

Thanks Paul for the clarification. Whilst Brian obviously left significant debts it seems strange that it took till the 80s for his debts to be cleared. You had his share of the significant record sales from the ABKCO years; the Estate's share of the 1972 settlement (I think Bill, Charlie and the BJ estate got equal amounts)and of course any recognition of his 20% stake in RS Ltd.
Oh, not forgetting (presumably) some income from the Moroccan album. Which I must listen to one of these days.

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Mathijs
He was not in debt when he died. There was bills to be paid (he spend a 1000 pound a month on heating the pool), but he did not die in debt. His income was low in 1968 and 1969 due to not touring, as it was for Charlie and Bill. But all had sufficient funds to buy huge mansions and pay for it in cash.

Mathijs

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Rocky Dijon

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Mathijs
He was not in debt when he died. There was bills to be paid (he spend a 1000 pound a month on heating the pool), but he did not die in debt. His income was low in 1968 and 1969 due to not touring, as it was for Charlie and Bill. But all had sufficient funds to buy huge mansions and pay for it in cash.

Mathijs

While I had the impression he died in debt from things I've read over the years, I have no way of validating it. What I definitely do recall from STONE ALONE by Bill Wyman is that when they wanted a home or a car (or any large asset), Klein forwarded them the money. Sometimes it was immediate, other times they were left waiting for several weeks or longer to receive their own money.

Part of what Wyman was mocked for by Mick and Keith when the book was published (and therefore echoed by diehard fans everywhere who follow their heroes' leads) was noting how little actual cash was in their bank accounts. Life with Klein made it impossible to know what they actually had since he treated their income like he was their Dad and doled out money as his children asked for it and gave them an allowance to manage.

The fact that their taxes were not being paid came as a shock to discover they were severely in arrears, had moved up to an income bracket without fully understanding the implications, and owed a daunting amount in late penalties. This would be the case for Brian and his Estate as well. Add to the fact that Brian (like Bill and Charlie) did not have songwriting royalties to add to his income and that Brian (like Mick and Keith) lived a more expensive lifestyle including prescription and illegal drugs and it's easy to understand why one might conclude the estate he left was not in great shape.

Since Brian's death was naturally the cause for his estate to be settled, it is likely that is when the tax issue first reared its head and led to Mick's decision to engage Prince Rupert with an eye on achieving their independence from Klein and seeking shelter as tax exiles until the 1972 tour could allow them to pay what was owed.

Just an educated guess, mind you. I only read these things and think about them. I am in no way, shape or form an expert or investigative journalist with first hand accounts at my disposal.

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paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

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Mathijs

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paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

A total bollocks story.

Mathijs