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Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: January 9, 2020 03:29

>There wasn't any collector's circle in 1969 to speak of.


This simply isn't true. By 1969 the Rolling Stones had been international celebrities for five years and you can bet your bottom dollar people collected anything they touched or breathed upon. Usually didn't try to sell it though, mostly hoarded it for the memories. So there might not have been much of a collectors' market, but there were certainly a lot of collectors of pop music related items.

jb

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 9, 2020 09:26

Quote
paulspendel
When I got the Joan Fitzsimons files released I was surprised to learn the builders kept going to Cotchford farm til the end of July 1969. Not Keylock was the main looter but Morris Tucker was, a violent thug from Eastergate and a protected police informant (liaison officer: Don Rambridge, who was involved in the Redlands raid). Mo sold the stuff and divided the money between Keylock, Thorogood and Betsworth. Later on in life he owned a caravan park in Exeter and died in 2001, the day after he sold the caravan park and became a millionaire.

But there was nothing looted, and nothing sold. All Brian's stuff went to the legal owners. The total inventory of the house, including the last tea cups and whatever more, went to the Jones estate, which was his parents and sister. His many children didn't get anything. Suki Potier took much of his clothing, most instruments went back to the Stones as they owned them. Much of Brian's stuff has appeared on the market since the early 1990's and the early 2000's, all being sold or given away by the legal owners.

There wasn't any foul play, there wasn't any looting. A guy drowned, his stuff went to the legal owners, and the builders finished the renovation. That's it folks. Nothing more to it.

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 9, 2020 12:04

Quote
paulspendel
When I got the Joan Fitzsimons files released I was surprised to learn the builders kept going to Cotchford farm til the end of July 1969. Not Keylock was the main looter but Morris Tucker was, a violent thug from Eastergate and a protected police informant (liaison officer: Don Rambridge, who was involved in the Redlands raid). Mo sold the stuff and divided the money between Keylock, Thorogood and Betsworth. Later on in life he owned a caravan park in Exeter and died in 2001, the day after he sold the caravan park and became a millionaire.

Paul,
Can you confirm that the bonfire story is pure fiction please? I, and many others am sure, are confused!

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: gotdablouse ()
Date: January 9, 2020 12:08

Quote
Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

--------------
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Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 9, 2020 13:46

Quote
jbwelda
>There wasn't any collector's circle in 1969 to speak of.


This simply isn't true. By 1969 the Rolling Stones had been international celebrities for five years and you can bet your bottom dollar people collected anything they touched or breathed upon. Usually didn't try to sell it though, mostly hoarded it for the memories. So there might not have been much of a collectors' market, but there were certainly a lot of collectors of pop music related items.

jb

So, my remark is totally true. There wasn't a collectors market. Sure there was merchandising available, and of course everybody wanted a piece of hair of a pop star, but there wasn't any commercial value to these items, there wasn't any market to speak off.

Same for musical instruments. 50's Strats and Tele's were $100 each, and if you bought 5 you got one for free. A 1959 Les Paul did $1500 -that was just about the most expensive guitar in the world.

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: January 9, 2020 14:48

The bonfire did happen.
Michael Martin, Brian’s gardener, confirmed this.
They had all the time in the world to do the looting, so they must have burnt specific things for a reason. Such like Brian’s bible. The bonfire is one of the things that remain a mystery to me...

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: January 9, 2020 14:50

By the way, electrician David Hills who passed away three years ago told me the looting by Tucker already started when in November 1968 Brian’s belongings arrived at Cotchford.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: January 9, 2020 14:56

Quote
gotdablouse
Quote
Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

Ha ha. Not enough.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 9, 2020 15:09

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
gotdablouse
Quote
Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

Ha ha. Not enough.

If Keylock knew that with a deceased Brian 'his meal ticket would have gone' he along with the others must have known a living Brian was 'worth more'.
Therefore, does it destroy the murder/manslaughter theories?

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 9, 2020 15:17

Quote
paulspendel
The bonfire did happen.
Michael Martin, Brian’s gardener, confirmed this.
They had all the time in the world to do the looting, so they must have burnt specific things for a reason. Such like Brian’s bible. The bonfire is one of the things that remain a mystery to me...

There was no looting. Stop that bullshit.

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 9, 2020 15:52

Anna Wohlin had some items of Brian's and sold them years later. His green Ossie Clark jacket he wore at 1968 NME Poll Winners concert for example.

Not knowing whether Brian gave them to her, but if not would her taking them be classed as looting?

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Jesse1960 ()
Date: January 9, 2020 16:58

Quote
paulspendel
When I got the Joan Fitzsimons files released I was surprised to learn the builders kept going to Cotchford farm til the end of July 1969. Not Keylock was the main looter but Morris Tucker was, a violent thug from Eastergate and a protected police informant (liaison officer: Don Rambridge, who was involved in the Redlands raid). Mo sold the stuff and divided the money between Keylock, Thorogood and Betsworth. Later on in life he owned a caravan park in Exeter and died in 2001, the day after he sold the caravan park and became a millionaire.

Sounds like Mo Tucker was the wrong man to trifle with. And Jones, known to treat lesser mortals with little or no respect, and I'm being kind, might have urinated on the wrong fire hydrant. Some folks could care less about "celebrity" status and priviledge. And will peel your head when provoked.I doubt Jones was intentionally murdered, but an old fashioned, long overdue butt kicking was delivered. With fatal consequences.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: January 9, 2020 18:27

No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Date: January 9, 2020 18:46

<but an old fashioned, long overdue butt kicking was delivered. With fatal consequences>

There were no signs of that at all.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 9, 2020 21:45

Quote
paulspendel
No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

There are no proven facts of any looting. Fact is that most of Brian's belongings have ended up in collector's hands by legal means -that is it has been sold or given away by the Jones' estate. This does not only include low(er) value stuff from the house, but also the more expensive stuff like his instruments.

The simple fact that most stuff has turned up over the years through legal means is the very simple but very factual prove that nothing has been looted.

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: swimtothemoon ()
Date: January 10, 2020 10:05

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
paulspendel
No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

There are no proven facts of any looting. Fact is that most of Brian's belongings have ended up in collector's hands by legal means -that is it has been sold or given away by the Jones' estate. This does not only include low(er) value stuff from the house, but also the more expensive stuff like his instruments.

The simple fact that most stuff has turned up over the years through legal means is the very simple but very factual prove that nothing has been looted.

Mathijs[/qu

In my experience, auction houses do very little - if anything, to determine
a consignor has acquired the items legally. They are more concerned whether the
item is authentic. For example if the auction house was told the item came from a
person who worked for Brian - then this would be enough.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: January 10, 2020 10:53

Quote
Mathijs

There wasn't any foul play, there wasn't any looting. A guy drowned, his stuff went to the legal owners, and the builders finished the renovation. That's it folks. Nothing more to it.

Mathijs

thumbs up

But then the conspiracy theories were started by folks who found it brought them a bit of attention ...and they persist 50 years later !

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 10, 2020 11:15

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
paulspendel
No looting, Mathijs? I went to Sussex and spoke to builders/relatives and saw with my own eyes what they kept behind after the looting (Brian's velvet trousers for instance). I am not the one for making emotional comments on this board, only facts, but your feedback seems childish to me: constantly claiming the opposite of proven facts.

There are no proven facts of any looting. Fact is that most of Brian's belongings have ended up in collector's hands by legal means -that is it has been sold or given away by the Jones' estate. This does not only include low(er) value stuff from the house, but also the more expensive stuff like his instruments.

The simple fact that most stuff has turned up over the years through legal means is the very simple but very factual prove that nothing has been looted.

Mathijs

It depends how you define looting. I suspect during Brian's later years and somewhat chaotic lifestyle lots of his stuff went 'missiing'. Keith has admitted the same about some of his own possessions during his 'junkie' period.
The fact that items have shown up at Auction houses doesnt in itself prove anything. It maybe quite simply that items deemed embarassing to the family if got in the wrong hands (rather than having any monetary value) got destroyed. But the speed at which it was allegedly carried out is bizarre to put it mildly.
The most reliable person would be his housekeeper ( now deceased) who was probably the most sane person around at the time. Not sure if she ever spoke about the 'bonfire story'?

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: January 10, 2020 12:05

Bits and pieces disappearing with "friends and family" after people die is hardly an unusual event...even when the deceased isn't famous with scores of hangers on looking to benefit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-10 12:06 by Spud.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: January 10, 2020 13:05

Quote
jlowe
Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
gotdablouse
Quote
Silver Dagger
I don't believe it. Keylock was a streetwise, canny operator who knew his mealticket was gone after Brian died. He would have known the value in collector's circles of Brian's belongings.

I met him about 20 years ago and asked him straight up about the truth of what happened the night Brian died. And without blinking an eyelid he said "How much have you got to offer".

So how much did you have ? ;-)

Ha ha. Not enough.

If Keylock knew that with a deceased Brian 'his meal ticket would have gone' he along with the others must have known a living Brian was 'worth more'.
Therefore, does it destroy the murder/manslaughter theories?

Keylock was never a murderer suspect. Frank Thorogood was. I believe if Keylock had the chance to save Brian he would have done so.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: January 10, 2020 19:11

April 2009 we filmed Tom’s final interview on the case. The News of the World offered 25 grand. We set a publishing date: june 25. Wacko Jacko died and the NOTW calls us and they say: “We can only handle one dead rock star at a time.” Tom died a week later.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: January 10, 2020 19:52

I don't know why but every time I read the word 'builder' in this context I find it more ridiculous

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: January 10, 2020 19:54

Neither bricklayer nor carpenter

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: January 11, 2020 12:13

It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-11 12:15 by paulspendel.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 13, 2020 00:47

Quote
paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

Thanks Paul for the clarification. Whilst Brian obviously left significant debts it seems strange that it took till the 80s for his debts to be cleared. You had his share of the significant record sales from the ABKCO years; the Estate's share of the 1972 settlement (I think Bill, Charlie and the BJ estate got equal amounts)and of course any recognition of his 20% stake in RS Ltd.
Oh, not forgetting (presumably) some income from the Moroccan album. Which I must listen to one of these days.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 13, 2020 11:53

Quote
jlowe
Quote
paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

Thanks Paul for the clarification. Whilst Brian obviously left significant debts it seems strange that it took till the 80s for his debts to be cleared. You had his share of the significant record sales from the ABKCO years; the Estate's share of the 1972 settlement (I think Bill, Charlie and the BJ estate got equal amounts)and of course any recognition of his 20% stake in RS Ltd.
Oh, not forgetting (presumably) some income from the Moroccan album. Which I must listen to one of these days.

I do not understand the 'obviously'.

He was not in debt when he died. There was bills to be paid (he spend a 1000 pound a month on heating the pool), but he did not die in debt. His income was low in 1968 and 1969 due to not touring, as it was for Charlie and Bill. But all had sufficient funds to buy huge mansions and pay for it in cash.

Mathijs

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: January 13, 2020 14:47

Quote
Mathijs
He was not in debt when he died. There was bills to be paid (he spend a 1000 pound a month on heating the pool), but he did not die in debt. His income was low in 1968 and 1969 due to not touring, as it was for Charlie and Bill. But all had sufficient funds to buy huge mansions and pay for it in cash.

Mathijs

While I had the impression he died in debt from things I've read over the years, I have no way of validating it. What I definitely do recall from STONE ALONE by Bill Wyman is that when they wanted a home or a car (or any large asset), Klein forwarded them the money. Sometimes it was immediate, other times they were left waiting for several weeks or longer to receive their own money.

Part of what Wyman was mocked for by Mick and Keith when the book was published (and therefore echoed by diehard fans everywhere who follow their heroes' leads) was noting how little actual cash was in their bank accounts. Life with Klein made it impossible to know what they actually had since he treated their income like he was their Dad and doled out money as his children asked for it and gave them an allowance to manage.

The fact that their taxes were not being paid came as a shock to discover they were severely in arrears, had moved up to an income bracket without fully understanding the implications, and owed a daunting amount in late penalties. This would be the case for Brian and his Estate as well. Add to the fact that Brian (like Bill and Charlie) did not have songwriting royalties to add to his income and that Brian (like Mick and Keith) lived a more expensive lifestyle including prescription and illegal drugs and it's easy to understand why one might conclude the estate he left was not in great shape.

Since Brian's death was naturally the cause for his estate to be settled, it is likely that is when the tax issue first reared its head and led to Mick's decision to engage Prince Rupert with an eye on achieving their independence from Klein and seeking shelter as tax exiles until the 1972 tour could allow them to pay what was owed.

Just an educated guess, mind you. I only read these things and think about them. I am in no way, shape or form an expert or investigative journalist with first hand accounts at my disposal.

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 13, 2020 15:35

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Quote
Mathijs
He was not in debt when he died. There was bills to be paid (he spend a 1000 pound a month on heating the pool), but he did not die in debt. His income was low in 1968 and 1969 due to not touring, as it was for Charlie and Bill. But all had sufficient funds to buy huge mansions and pay for it in cash.

Mathijs

While I had the impression he died in debt from things I've read over the years, I have no way of validating it. What I definitely do recall from STONE ALONE by Bill Wyman is that when they wanted a home or a car (or any large asset), Klein forwarded them the money. Sometimes it was immediate, other times they were left waiting for several weeks or longer to receive their own money.

Part of what Wyman was mocked for by Mick and Keith when the book was published (and therefore echoed by diehard fans everywhere who follow their heroes' leads) was noting how little actual cash was in their bank accounts. Life with Klein made it impossible to know what they actually had since he treated their income like he was their Dad and doled out money as his children asked for it and gave them an allowance to manage.

The fact that their taxes were not being paid came as a shock to discover they were severely in arrears, had moved up to an income bracket without fully understanding the implications, and owed a daunting amount in late penalties. This would be the case for Brian and his Estate as well. Add to the fact that Brian (like Bill and Charlie) did not have songwriting royalties to add to his income and that Brian (like Mick and Keith) lived a more expensive lifestyle including prescription and illegal drugs and it's easy to understand why one might conclude the estate he left was not in great shape.

Since Brian's death was naturally the cause for his estate to be settled, it is likely that is when the tax issue first reared its head and led to Mick's decision to engage Prince Rupert with an eye on achieving their independence from Klein and seeking shelter as tax exiles until the 1972 tour could allow them to pay what was owed.

Just an educated guess, mind you. I only read these things and think about them. I am in no way, shape or form an expert or investigative journalist with first hand accounts at my disposal.

What is important to remember that they are rock stars, and used to being millionaires from a very early age. Wyman always complains about money, and that he didn't have anything, and still he buys a castle in 1968 to live in.

And to add -losing their wealth always has been a hot subject with the Stones, even to this day. They all were working class, and the money just came in second, and throughout their career they always have been aware that they could lose it in seconds as well.

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 13, 2020 15:36

Quote
paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

A total bollocks story.

Mathijs

Re: Tom Keylock and Brian Jones' belongings
Date: January 13, 2020 15:41

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
paulspendel
It's legally impossible Brian's parents sold Brian's belongings in the nineties, as claimed by Mathijs. You need to understand UK law. Brian died in debth. His fater was very strict and took care that the lawyer of the estate (Clive Berger) paid everyone when the estate became positive in the early eigthies.So they couldn't keep any of Brian's belongings because they had to be sold directly after his death to try and clear his debts.Electrician Dave Hills told me he went to the official clearing of Cotchford in May 1970 in order to get his bills paid. However, the Taxman came first.

A total bollocks story.

Mathijs
"
I do remember Tony Sanches' book were Keith is quoted after Brian was sacked : "Brian gets 100.000 pound a year by only sitting on his arse".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-13 16:14 by TheflyingDutchman.

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