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Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: January 7, 2020 17:37

Quote
His Majesty

ABKCO have @#$%& up this time. 1968 recordings in a 1969 upload. Woops.

I don't believe it's a blunder, rather a somewhat desperate attempt at gaining "copyright extension" over 1968 songs that can't be extended. (NYC accent : hey ya know, it might work!").

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: slewan ()
Date: January 7, 2020 18:04

Quote
jlowe
Unlike some of the Dylan Copyright issues we haven't had multiple recordings /takes of the same composition.
So, presumably there are still lots of alternative takes out there, in ABKCO vaults, Stones vaults, and in private hands.
Those in the latter category are now in the Public Domain?
And could be released on the iorr label?

the basic question is: who's got the guts to try it (plus enough money for lawyers etc in case ABKCO sues them - even if you know you'll win the case you have to be able to pay your lawyers just in case you might not win)

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Keessie ()
Date: January 7, 2020 18:58

.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-10 18:08 by Keessie.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: January 7, 2020 19:53

Quote
His Majesty

That they are 'rehearsals' for Circus sounds plausible, but not that they were recorded at the circus.

The sound is too full etc and different to actual circus recordings. That full and beautiful Olympic sound.

So, I say recordings done at Olympic for/in preparation for The R&R Circus in early December 1968.

Maybe they were painfully aware they hadn't played live since April 1967? And they were scared of having to compete with The Who or Jethro Tull (two bands hot from constant touring)? So they discreetly orgazined a rehearsal session at Olympic so they could set the "gig" machine in motion without anyone looking?

EDIT : ahem... that's what zentgraf just hinted at :

681208A 8th December: London, Olympic Sound Studios. Producer: Jimmy Miller.
Sound engineer: Glyn Johns. Recording session for Rock And Roll Circus, incl.

- Sympathy For The Devil (MJ/KR)
- Ruby Tuesday (MJ/KR)"

"Including" so logically there's more on the tape... thumbs up Maybe one day around 2050 or 2060... >grinning smiley<



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-07 19:57 by dcba.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: randallsdad ()
Date: January 7, 2020 21:08

This thread and the info contained herein was referenced by Variety Magazine which I thought was pretty cool. I mean, who else would know better.

[variety.com]

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: January 7, 2020 23:08

Quote
dcba
Quote
His Majesty

That they are 'rehearsals' for Circus sounds plausible, but not that they were recorded at the circus.

The sound is too full etc and different to actual circus recordings. That full and beautiful Olympic sound.

So, I say recordings done at Olympic for/in preparation for The R&R Circus in early December 1968.

Maybe they were painfully aware they hadn't played live since April 1967? And they were scared of having to compete with The Who or Jethro Tull (two bands hot from constant touring)? So they discreetly orgazined a rehearsal session at Olympic so they could set the "gig" machine in motion without anyone looking?

EDIT : ahem... that's what zentgraf just hinted at :

681208A 8th December: London, Olympic Sound Studios. Producer: Jimmy Miller.
Sound engineer: Glyn Johns. Recording session for Rock And Roll Circus, incl.

- Sympathy For The Devil (MJ/KR)
- Ruby Tuesday (MJ/KR)"

"Including" so logically there's more on the tape... thumbs up Maybe one day around 2050 or 2060... >grinning smiley<

Route 66, Confessin' The Blues...

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: January 7, 2020 23:42

Quote
dcba
Quote
His Majesty

That they are 'rehearsals' for Circus sounds plausible, but not that they were recorded at the circus.

The sound is too full etc and different to actual circus recordings. That full and beautiful Olympic sound.

So, I say recordings done at Olympic for/in preparation for The R&R Circus in early December 1968.

Maybe they were painfully aware they hadn't played live since April 1967? And they were scared of having to compete with The Who or Jethro Tull (two bands hot from constant touring)? So they discreetly orgazined a rehearsal session at Olympic so they could set the "gig" machine in motion without anyone looking?

EDIT : ahem... that's what zentgraf just hinted at :

681208A 8th December: London, Olympic Sound Studios. Producer: Jimmy Miller.
Sound engineer: Glyn Johns. Recording session for Rock And Roll Circus, incl.

- Sympathy For The Devil (MJ/KR)
- Ruby Tuesday (MJ/KR)"

"Including" so logically there's more on the tape... thumbs up Maybe one day around 2050 or 2060... >grinning smiley<

Now this is starting to make A LOT more sense. The two songs definitely sound more like they were recorded in a studio rather than at rehearsals. Especially Sympathy where you can clearly hear at the end of the song Glyn Johns or Jimmy Miller say behind the recording booth, "that was very good."

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: January 7, 2020 23:54

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
retired_dog
However, songwriters always have the right to allow or veto the first release/publication of a composition, just like they retain the right to allow or veto the use of their compositions for advertising campaigns, the use of foreign language lyrics instead of the original lyrics etc. All these are personal rights guaranteed by law that songwriters usually can't even sign away in contractual agreements even if they want to.

No, sorry this is all very much not true. First, it is much more complicated, and second it really depends on which country.

As a writer you have very limited power on what the owner of the publishing rights does with your tracks -even big bands like the Stones have limited to no say in whatever compilation is released by publisher ABKCO. Second, you CAN sign away your personal rights, unknowingly (again, Stones, or CCR, or Prince, or even Lennon/McCartney) or knowingly (Bowie is the best example of selling all his personal rights for 100 mm$).

Then, in most countries, and especially the USA, music can be used in most affairs without consent of the publisher and author. No one can stop a radio station from playing your music, or your music being used in a political campaign, or being played in a stadium during a basketball game. Only in advertising and broadcasting on TV or movie an agreement must be reached when the clip is longer than 29 seconds.

What is not even guaranteed is that you get your money. Most contracts are vague, and many companies are rogue. Many owner of the publishing rights have basically stolen money from the artists, and it can take years and years to get part of that money. The Small Faces and Immediate Records come to mind, Micky Most and RAK is also known, and of course Allan Klein.

Mathijs

Mathijs,

I did not say that this is an easy subject, and if we really want to go through different law setups of different countries and a plethora of possibilities of contractual agreements we could possibly fill hundreds of pages here.

Nor did I speak of the use of published compositions in radio broadcasts or in public places like clubs or basketball games.

I was talking about UNRELEASED/UNPUBLISHED COMPOSITIONS. That's an entirely different story. Let's take GODZI (or GOZI?) for example. It's not only an unreleased recording, it's also an unreleased composition. Any radio station that gets hold of the actual recording and plays it over the radio would sooner or later face a cease and desist letter or court order by Jagger/Richards because of authors of the unpublished work they still retain the right to allow or veto the first publication.

Bowie's scoop is a bad example because everyone who's willing to pay 100 mm$ for his released and unreleased recorded music and compositions will undoubtedly make sure that for the unreleased recordings and compositions INCLUDED IN THIS DEAL, Bowie's agreement to release this material will be part of the deal. But of course, it was up to Bowie to exclude certain material from the deal that he considered subpar and did not want to be released now and in the future.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: NICOS ()
Date: January 8, 2020 00:29

If I listen to this song "The Rolling Stones - Sympathy From The Devil (Olympic Sound April 1969 - with vocals)" my guess is that it's a try out for the upcoming "US" tour(s)

__________________________

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: LieB ()
Date: January 8, 2020 23:14

It's fun with the speculation and detective work, but all in all, the whole thing leaves me feeling a bit disappointed that the Stones and Abkco can't make better archive releases out of all this. Sure, many tracks we've heard before and many tracks are throw-away, but there's obviously plenty of stuff to make a few "bootleg series" releases á la Dylan or at least something like the Deluxe Sticky Fingers. sad smiley

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: DrPete ()
Date: January 8, 2020 23:43

Why only the first 3 songs of the breakfast show? Did the rest of the tape get lost?

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: frankotero ()
Date: January 8, 2020 23:54

Just a few of these songs would have made BB and LIB more attractive. Instead they rely on mono fold downs and slick boxes to sell a (sort of) useless product. In my opinion it's good for new fans, I hope there are some and they will enjoy these. On the other hand one could say we got them for free, though I would of preferred it the proper way and in good audio quality.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 9, 2020 09:31

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
jbwelda
>it’s actually quite a feat, to mix and edit three shows down to the final
>released Ya Ya’s

I do not understand this comment; I was under the distinct impression that Ya Yas, despite what it may claim in the credits, was only partially recorded at MSG. Instead it was a conglomeration of tracks from various stops on the tour, sometimes more than one source per song. In fact I recall some very lengthy analysis of the song sources back in Sticky Fingers. Or has that all proven to be incorrect?

about the Altamont recordings, any soundboard recordings would have been done by the grateful deads sound engineer, Owsley Stanley aka Bear, who has claimed in the past to have a complete soundboard recording, albeit in stereo and just using front of house mix, recorded on his Uher (I think it was) reel to reel deck. Are those the soundboard recordings being referenced here? I was always wondering where the multitracks of the day, if they exist, came from as while I was there I saw no multitrack recorders nor great amounts of wiring leading to an offstage recording truck, but of course I wasn't everywhere at once. I have always been hopeful that at least the sb front of house mix would get released. Who would the "owners" of the multitracks be, the Maysle brothers?

Did anyone save the similarly dumped BB sessions that were reportedly put up on youtube in a similar fashion for the copyright protection back last year? if so, could we be pointed to them please?

all very interesting and a very interesting time to be dropping back into the stones that's for sure.

jb

Ya Yas is MSG (from two shows) + Love In Vain from Baltimore.

The tracks released on Youtube were from 65-66, not 68. '67 Sessions were released on iTunes.

As it seems now, only JJF is from the 27th show, LIV from Baltimore, and all the remaining tracks from 28 first and second show.

JJF note for note 27
Carol note for note 28 1st
Stray cat not 27 and not 28 2nd
Love Baltimore
Sympathy 28 1st note for note
Midnight 28 2nd note for note
Live with me 28 2nd note for note
HTW not 27 and not 28 2nd
SFM not 27 and not 28 2nd
Queenie 28 1st note for note

Mathijs

I know it's a bit anorak, but....

Sources for Ya Ya's:

HTW is November 28, 2nd show until the lead break, when it turns to the November 27, 1969 show.

Mathijs

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 9, 2020 10:37

Yeah, I noticed that smiling smiley

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: January 9, 2020 11:00

Quote
Mathijs

I know it's a bit anorak, but....

Sources for Ya Ya's:

HTW is November 28, 2nd show until the lead break, when it turns to the November 27, 1969 show.

Mathijs

Is this a use of the word bit with which I am not familiar? winking smiley

--
Captain Corella
50+ Years a Fan

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: riccardo99 ()
Date: January 9, 2020 20:37


Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: January 10, 2020 05:20

Quote
CaptainCorella
Quote
Mathijs

I know it's a bit anorak, but....

Sources for Ya Ya's:

HTW is November 28, 2nd show until the lead break, when it turns to the November 27, 1969 show.

Mathijs

Is this a use of the word bit with which I am not familiar? winking smiley

BIT IS A SMALL AMOUNT

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: January 10, 2020 05:44

Just another opinion here. It's Nicky Hopkins on piano on Ruby Tuesday. I guess you'd have to know his style and elegance.

Sympathy doesn't sound like Rock and Roll Circus but it could have been a rehearsal for RnR Circus.

I first thought maybe Ruby Tuesday was being rehearsed for the 1969 tour for the acoustic set and got dropped but I don't think so, even if it is in a 1969 style. It could easily be 1968 too. Maybe Ruby Tuesday was being warmed-up for RnR Circus and then dropped?

It all seems like 1968. Mature Beggars songs and embryonic (early stages) of Let It Bleed.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: keefgotsoul ()
Date: January 10, 2020 06:55

I might actually like this version of Sister Morphine better than the album version. Gonna have to listen again.

Edit: I like it better. And I’ll even go so as to say I like this version of Sympathy better than the album version. Same with Love in Vain. Mind blown ????



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-10 09:28 by keefgotsoul.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: January 10, 2020 16:17

Quote
keefgotsoul
I might actually like this version of Sister Morphine better than the album version.

Mind blown ????

Yes! grinning smiley
Imho it's a rather dodgy of the masterpiece of a version that's on "Fingers" : everything's there (lyrics drums piano slide) but a in a clumsy bad way.

Another proof of the genius of the band is only a handful of days separate the raw version from its definitve official one. In just one week thye got it together and they created a timeless scary masterpiece! thumbs up

Only Dylan can compete with the stones in that regard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-10 23:20 by dcba.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 10, 2020 16:21

Cooder is feeling his way through SM, and doesn't really know the song yet, obviously.

This take has great dynamics, though, even though I'm not sure if everything's intentional. A great art-by-accident-thing, perhaps? smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-10 16:22 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: MrEcho ()
Date: January 11, 2020 16:30

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
jbwelda
>it’s actually quite a feat, to mix and edit three shows down to the final
>released Ya Ya’s

I do not understand this comment; I was under the distinct impression that Ya Yas, despite what it may claim in the credits, was only partially recorded at MSG. Instead it was a conglomeration of tracks from various stops on the tour, sometimes more than one source per song. In fact I recall some very lengthy analysis of the song sources back in Sticky Fingers. Or has that all proven to be incorrect?

about the Altamont recordings, any soundboard recordings would have been done by the grateful deads sound engineer, Owsley Stanley aka Bear, who has claimed in the past to have a complete soundboard recording, albeit in stereo and just using front of house mix, recorded on his Uher (I think it was) reel to reel deck. Are those the soundboard recordings being referenced here? I was always wondering where the multitracks of the day, if they exist, came from as while I was there I saw no multitrack recorders nor great amounts of wiring leading to an offstage recording truck, but of course I wasn't everywhere at once. I have always been hopeful that at least the sb front of house mix would get released. Who would the "owners" of the multitracks be, the Maysle brothers?

Did anyone save the similarly dumped BB sessions that were reportedly put up on youtube in a similar fashion for the copyright protection back last year? if so, could we be pointed to them please?

all very interesting and a very interesting time to be dropping back into the stones that's for sure.

jb

Ya Yas is MSG (from two shows) + Love In Vain from Baltimore.

The tracks released on Youtube were from 65-66, not 68. '67 Sessions were released on iTunes.

In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 11, 2020 16:46

Ah, forgot about those! Thanks.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: January 11, 2020 19:57

Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 11, 2020 20:21

Quote
LeonidP
Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

I think this is "Mickey Mouse Blues": [youtu.be]

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 11, 2020 21:02

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
LeonidP
Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

I think this is "Mickey Mouse Blues": [youtu.be]

Nice.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: January 11, 2020 22:56

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
LeonidP
Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

I think this is "Mickey Mouse Blues": [youtu.be]

Very cool, thanks! But, actually I was hoping to hear all of those above. Of course I have heard Family, Pay Your Dues, but I was hoping for the ABKCO youtube versions, in case they are different, or better quality, etc.

** edit ... And it seems that COTM (mickey mouse) might be the same thing from the Satanic Majesties sessions, so maybe none of those ABKCO stuff released was new?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-11 22:59 by LeonidP.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: January 11, 2020 22:56

Quote
24FPS
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
LeonidP
Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

I think this is "Mickey Mouse Blues": [youtu.be]

Nice.

I think that's a different acoustic version of Child of the Moon. The copyright version, Mickey Mouse Blues was definitely different.

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Posted by: MrEcho ()
Date: January 12, 2020 05:29

Quote
LeonidP
Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

[iorr.org]
No. 040

Re: New ABKCO copyright releases
Date: January 12, 2020 09:50

Quote
JordyLicks96
Quote
24FPS
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
LeonidP
Quote
MrEcho
In December 2018 ABKCO uploaded the following 1968 tracks on YouTube:
Dear Doctor (alternate version)
Family (alternate intro and mix version)
Family (demo)
Mickey Mouse Blues (Child Of The Moon instr)
Pay Your Dues (Street Fighting Man early)
Sympathy For The Devil (alternate take)

I searched, for example, on Rolling Stones Mickey Mouse, and get no hits on youtube. Were they pulled down right after?

If not on youtube, can you kindly share them?

Thanks!

I think this is "Mickey Mouse Blues": [youtu.be]

Nice.

I think that's a different acoustic version of Child of the Moon. The copyright version, Mickey Mouse Blues was definitely different.

Thanks. There are two more, right?

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