Tell Me :
Talk
Annie Schilder?
I'm not fond of it either, I must say. Especially the drum sound I find irksome (I know that Mick Jagger agrees with me). It was the album that Keith didn't want to make, and that's exactly how it sounds to me. Also the inclusion of Mick Taylor sounded promising but the song he plays on is silly, while anyone could have played what he played on it.
Main Offender and the recent one are better, in my opinion.
Chosen People and Think Visual are pretty good, I think. I can even listen to W&tPB's!
I -obviously- disagree completely on Chosen People (a lot better than Dave's first two albums) and especially Think Visual. I can't think of any filler, off the top of my head, but perhaps one or two songs aren't as good as the rest.
Willie... never was intended as a band effort, but a fun, good cause, oneoff record that is entirely unimportant and unpretentious and therefore to be appreciated as such.
Yes, Goddess i/t Doorway is g*dawful bad. Wandering Spirit is in my opinion the only Jagger (or any bandmember's) solo album that matches the Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-09 22:55 by SomeGuy.
+1 d.f
Thanks for your considerations Doxa.
People hear different things, obviously. However, it would be interesting if you, with your expertise, perhaps would like to tell us what is missing in tracks like Make No Mistake, Take It So Hard, You Don't Move Me, How I Wish and I Could Have Stood You Up?
Regarding half-finished songs, I'd say that's a more suitable description of parts of Main Offender.
Interesting opinion.
It sounds like you're thinking that trying to reinvent yourself, and leaving your comfort zone is a guarantee for artistic success? Remember that sometimes one falls flat and don't succeed. You should be applauded for trying, but eventually you realise it didn't work (I suspect Mick realised that for PC).
I'm pretty sure if Mick did a solo tour today, he wouldn't pick too many of the PC-songs for the setlist, just like he chose not to in 1988. And that's not because the songs are difficult to do live.
That said, there is definitely good stuff on PC. Actually, there is good stuff on all his solo albums, imo.
No. Primitive Cool is the worst. It's scientifically proven.
It's the worst, as it is the album with the biggest gap between the best and worst work of the artist. If anyone else would have released Primitive Cool it would simply be a terrible album. But because Mick Jagger released the album, it's the worst album of all time.
Mathijs
It's a big heap of crap for sure. Jagger managed to get it all wrong.
Sure, one can argue that this song, or that song have certain qualities. Jagger is one of the alltime greats. If he had not learned a little about the songwriting craft along the way, we'd all be in trouble. But the pieces weren't put together right.
Say You Will is stale gum... but there's something about the change in it that makes it work and it's the weakest good song on the album.
I'm sorry you haven't gotten woke and continue to hang on to an archaic, newsprint dying, RS Stones review nose shining, ploddingly remindful nostalgic mindset about how awful songs are good, even if they're chewing your arm off, rabidly drooling any sense onto the floor: those 2 songs make Indian Girl seem like Wild Horses.
No matter. The door on my mailbox fell off months ago and I haven't bothered to replace it. The Marvin Gaye stamp would only get rurnt by the humidity.
I don't really know you, SomeGuy, but you can have Gaslight's seat for dinner on Christmas. I'll tell the wife to expect you.
I hate the Mick as Gollum or Mick as a Dybbuk cover art for the album. After Francesco Clemente's brilliant picture sleeve for "One Hit (to the Body)," what happened?
That's what I thought too, reading your post. You're talking about Main offender, at least parts (not Wicked as it seems...)
Don´t forget all those dreadful metal bands in spandex and glossy makeup.
Poison for example.
I think the unfinished song structure is something Keith aims for, not something he thought was good enough because he lacks the ability to polish it. He was going for something raw. It's Keith on guitar and vocals so a Stones connection is unavoidable, but he wanted the funk, soul, and reggae influences to be authentic and not just influences. He wanted the rockers to have a funk sensibility in their arrangements along with a touch of Tom Waits Island Records aesthetic where the rule book is thrown out and you chase a rhythm wherever it leads while finding unorthodox ways to layer a vocal over it. He wanted tribal harmonies that connected him to Jamaica and were anti-Stones (although starting with STEEL WHEELS, the Stones have sometimes adopted this approach).
It's all about communication between guitar and drums. If you find joy hearing the DIRTY WORK demos or a track like "Slave" then you know what Keith was aiming for. Getting hung up on how high the drums were mixed or how rough the compositions are is missing the point entirely. It isn't pop, it's anti-pop. He wasn't trying to adapt to the current trend or live up to his past, he was redefining his sound and image in a way that respected the past outlaw human riff and saw the way forward into a rootsy elder statesman who lives the rhythm. From that standpoint he succeeded because he found his niche, a niche life as a Rolling Stone permitted him to enjoy.
Mick, by contrast, could never do that - not because of lack of talent or because Keith is better, but because Mick on his own is the voice and polish and structure. The result is really good or disappointing because the yardstick Mick as a solo artist is measured against is the Stones' best work. Mick could not establish his own expectations the way Keith could. Mick had the harder task. The fact that he succeeded (solely my view, of course) so well about 50% of the time is proof of his enduring talent and the slow decline in his creative faculties. Keith, by contrast, found a corner where he could thrive almost outside of the mainstream.
This view, of course, is why I enjoy both Mick and Keith as solo artists and find their solo work essential to understanding the band's studio output these past 35 years.
Thanks Rocky, for the invitation. I'll bring my Journey records.
I am one of the surprised readers. As such, I am one who is somewhat (or even quite) bored by CROSSEYED HEART (after my approximately 30 listenings), whereas I do like "Gotta Get a Grip"/ "England Lost". So I am hardly an anti-Mick poster. However, to me TALK IS CHEAP is the best solo Rolling Stones related album, this because listening to Mick making a Rolling Stones album with other musicians and with fine song material, I end up missing the band so much that I slightly prefer TALK IS CHEAP to WANDERING SPIRIT.
Then I also do like SHE'S THE BOSS quite much. And to me "Hard Woman" in no way is dated; I still adore it. Apart from "Hate It When You Leave" and "Memo from Turner", to me "Hard Woman" is one of the very best songs of a Rolling Stones solo issue.
I read Doxa's post with much interest. I don't want to protest, but I am unable to say that I share that view on PRIMITIVE COOL. Even if I may appreciate quite many songs in isolation, but especially as a whole, that to me is the weakest of Mick Jagger's four solo albums. (I have never heard ALFIE, I have to admit, and I don't know if that album has status as a Jagger solo album).
Agreed on 'Talk is Cheap' and "Hard Woman". 'Wandering Spirit' has weakened somewhat for me over the years for the same reason that I miss the band, but not 'Talk is Cheap'. And "Hard Woman" still stands tall for me. Great ballad.
Focusing on Party Doll
For me, the video below is both (un)watchable and (un)listenable. A bit sad to see and hear Jagger the aesthete, completely loose his appreciation of art and form - his visual and aural aesthetic.
[www.youtube.com]
Contrast this with Mary Chapin Carpenter's cover of the same song
[www.youtube.com]
Somewhere during the 80's, Jagger forgot how to interpret the songs he wrote and what to convey. He lost that feeling, but yet, this Mary Chapin Carpenter version is a reminder that when you peel the layers, you uncover the songwriting god that Jagger was and still is.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-11 01:21 by wanderingspirit66.
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Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
harlem shuffle
()
Date: December 9, 2019 21:56
To Dandelion Powderman.I really think Talk is cheap is really bad,just terrible.Half finished tracks with nothing on.Shes the boss is on the same level.I dont think everything Keith come up with is good,like you and all the rest of his hangarounds.It,s my personal opinion,so i stay with it always
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: December 9, 2019 22:02
Quote
Mathijs
Primitive Cool remains to date the worst album of the 1980's. By any band. In any genre.
Mathijs
Annie Schilder?
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: December 9, 2019 22:09
Quote
deardoctorQuote
harlem shuffle
One of the worst albums in the eighties is Talk is Cheap,very very bad,not one single song is good on this album.
Just some riffs,almost without melody
This is an amazing opinion.
Maybe, you should revisit and listen three times in row.
It took a while for me as well. I promise, it will grow...
I'm not fond of it either, I must say. Especially the drum sound I find irksome (I know that Mick Jagger agrees with me). It was the album that Keith didn't want to make, and that's exactly how it sounds to me. Also the inclusion of Mick Taylor sounded promising but the song he plays on is silly, while anyone could have played what he played on it.
Main Offender and the recent one are better, in my opinion.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: December 9, 2019 22:26
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
Mathijs
Primitive Cool remains to date the worst album of the 1980's. By any band. In any genre.
Mathijs
SAVED by Dylan, KNOCKED OUT LOADED by Dylan, DOWN IN THE GROOVE by Dylan, DAVE DAVIES' self-titled album, GLAMOUR by Dave Davies, CHOSEN PEOPLE by Dave Davies, THINK VISUAL by The Kinks, UK JIVE by The Kinks, EYE OF THE ZOMBIE by John Fogerty, INXS' debut, UNDERNEATH THE COLOURS by INXS, BILL WYMAN's self-titled album, and SHE'S THE BOSS are all far worse, though most of these still have one or two tracks that are worthwhile. And yes, of course, there are many hundreds of others that are far worse.
Oh God, there's WILLIE AND THE POORBOYS from Bill...
Chosen People and Think Visual are pretty good, I think. I can even listen to W&tPB's!
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Erik_Snow
()
Date: December 9, 2019 22:29
I find She's The Boss to quite a lot better than Primitive Cool, if one can get past that cheesy 80s sound that ruined just about all artists and records of the mid 80s. Just Another Night, 1/2 A Loaf, Just Another Night, Secrets - and to a certain extent the now dated and naive Hard Woman - they all range from OK to pretty good. They're decent pop tunes.
Primitive Cool on the other hand.....I like parts of Kow Tow, especially the first 20 seconds. The album doesn't have that terrible Jeff Beck guitar sound on volume 11 like She's The Boss have, but it doesn't have any highs either, only lows, and the album has the worst ending-song of any Stones or Solo-Stones albums, "War Baby". The lyrics always reminds me of something Michael Jackson might have sung when he was becoming a real real wierdo in the 90s.
The only Jagger songs I dislike as much as War Baby....State of Shock and Joy
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-09 22:40 by Erik_Snow.
Primitive Cool on the other hand.....I like parts of Kow Tow, especially the first 20 seconds. The album doesn't have that terrible Jeff Beck guitar sound on volume 11 like She's The Boss have, but it doesn't have any highs either, only lows, and the album has the worst ending-song of any Stones or Solo-Stones albums, "War Baby". The lyrics always reminds me of something Michael Jackson might have sung when he was becoming a real real wierdo in the 90s.
The only Jagger songs I dislike as much as War Baby....State of Shock and Joy
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-09 22:40 by Erik_Snow.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 9, 2019 22:32
@SomeGuy, CHOSEN PEOPLE has a good song (Love Gets You) and THINK VISUAL has a great song (Lost and Found) and a good song (Working at the Factory), but there's a lot of filler and both sound terrible. I enjoy Dave's solo work of the sixties and his post-Kinks efforts better than I do his three early eighties solo albums.
WILLIE AND THE POOR BOYS has impressive players failing to click as a band and coming off like Sha-Na-Na.
I'm a rare person who also prefers MAIN OFFENDER to TALK IS CHEAP. I completely understand finding Keith's solo efforts to be largely unfinished affairs, they are raw and a number of tracks are little more than jams (I say "little more than..." since you need TALK IS CHEAP DELUXE EDITION to get the actual instrumental jams). That said, I genuinely love TALK IS CHEAP as I do WANDERING SPIRIT and most of PRIMITIVE COOL.
For me, SHE'S THE BOSS and GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY are disappointing albums with a couple great tracks (Just Another Night, Hideaway, and Too Far Gone). SHE'S THE BOSS has better songs, but again I hate the sound of the album. Many of the songs never come alive despite the collection of talent.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-09 22:41 by Rocky Dijon.
WILLIE AND THE POOR BOYS has impressive players failing to click as a band and coming off like Sha-Na-Na.
I'm a rare person who also prefers MAIN OFFENDER to TALK IS CHEAP. I completely understand finding Keith's solo efforts to be largely unfinished affairs, they are raw and a number of tracks are little more than jams (I say "little more than..." since you need TALK IS CHEAP DELUXE EDITION to get the actual instrumental jams). That said, I genuinely love TALK IS CHEAP as I do WANDERING SPIRIT and most of PRIMITIVE COOL.
For me, SHE'S THE BOSS and GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY are disappointing albums with a couple great tracks (Just Another Night, Hideaway, and Too Far Gone). SHE'S THE BOSS has better songs, but again I hate the sound of the album. Many of the songs never come alive despite the collection of talent.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-09 22:41 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: December 9, 2019 22:43
Quote
Rocky Dijon
@SomeGuy, CHOSEN PEOPLE has a good song (Love Gets You) and THINK VISUAL has a great song (Lost and Found) and a good song (Working at the Factory), but there's a lot of filler and both sound terrible. I enjoy Dave's solo work of the sixties and his post-Kinks efforts better than I do his three early eighties solo albums.
WILLIE AND THE POOR BOYS has impressive players failing to click as a band and coming off like Sha-Na-Na.
I -obviously- disagree completely on Chosen People (a lot better than Dave's first two albums) and especially Think Visual. I can't think of any filler, off the top of my head, but perhaps one or two songs aren't as good as the rest.
Willie... never was intended as a band effort, but a fun, good cause, oneoff record that is entirely unimportant and unpretentious and therefore to be appreciated as such.
Yes, Goddess i/t Doorway is g*dawful bad. Wandering Spirit is in my opinion the only Jagger (or any bandmember's) solo album that matches the Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-09 22:55 by SomeGuy.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 10, 2019 05:42
An incredible tune. That's Jagger solo at best - being as far as possible from the safe waters of the Stones, and actually reinventing himself - like he said, that vocal melody was out of his reach but he was forced to do it (by Dave). The musical track is pure 80's pop, as it should be and that's why it funnily makes the difference now, but the song is one of the best Mick ever has composed. The same with some other PRIMITIVE COOL tracks, such as "Kow Tow", "Party Doll", "Throwaway" - after a decade or so, not caring a shit about proper melody lines, Mick was once again composing properly. His best work since TATTOO YOU. Actually Mick re-invented his whole way of singing and rediscovered the rich nuances of his unique voice in this album (after having shouted out more or less without sense and nuance throughout the early decade). Surely the people just concentrating on guitar tracks (and if there is Ronnie or Keef not) do not might hear any difference. But there is.
PRIMITIVE COOL altogether is one of the most interesting albums a Rolling Stone ever has done. Those who are interested in deeper mechanics and dynamics of Rolling Stones development might hear there something crucial going on. It was the last album a proper (not any Woody) Rolling Stone was reinventing his game properly and was ambitious. None of them, not even Jagger, had tried anything like that since then. But many of the experiments tried then are standard now. That's the Mick we hear now singing technically note-to-note now.
I think PRIMITIVE COOL is the last musically forward-going, non-repititive album a Rolling Stone, or if you like, The Rolling Stones, ever have done. The musicologists of future will confim that, when all is said and done. The true story ends there.
Besides, "Piece of the Wicked" is actually the only Rolling Stones-related piece which truely hits its actual target: it is real funk as it should go, not any lazy half-assed simplification (like all those hotstuffs, heynegritas and sexdrives, which are entertaining an sich - at least for some Rolling Stones fans - but not any real bad-ass, groovy funk).
- Doxa
Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-10 07:37 by Doxa.
PRIMITIVE COOL altogether is one of the most interesting albums a Rolling Stone ever has done. Those who are interested in deeper mechanics and dynamics of Rolling Stones development might hear there something crucial going on. It was the last album a proper (not any Woody) Rolling Stone was reinventing his game properly and was ambitious. None of them, not even Jagger, had tried anything like that since then. But many of the experiments tried then are standard now. That's the Mick we hear now singing technically note-to-note now.
I think PRIMITIVE COOL is the last musically forward-going, non-repititive album a Rolling Stone, or if you like, The Rolling Stones, ever have done. The musicologists of future will confim that, when all is said and done. The true story ends there.
Besides, "Piece of the Wicked" is actually the only Rolling Stones-related piece which truely hits its actual target: it is real funk as it should go, not any lazy half-assed simplification (like all those hotstuffs, heynegritas and sexdrives, which are entertaining an sich - at least for some Rolling Stones fans - but not any real bad-ass, groovy funk).
- Doxa
Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-10 07:37 by Doxa.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: December 10, 2019 06:10
And don't forget the rather pretty, 45's B side, Catch As Catch Can. All in all I'd say Primitive Cool is my second favourite Jagger solo record. Also I don't have a problem with the supposed 80s sound. I know lots more awful sounding records than this one from that era, that no one complains about.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
dead.flowers
()
Date: December 10, 2019 10:42
Quote
Doxa
An incredible tune. That's Jagger solo at best - being as far as possible from the safe waters of the Stones, and actually reinventing himself - like he said, that vocal melody was out of his reach but he was forced to do it (by Dave). The musical track is pure 80's pop, as it should be and that's why it funnily makes the difference now, but the song is one of the best Mick ever has composed. The same with some other PRIMITIVE COOL tracks, such as "Kow Tow", "Party Doll", "Throwaway" - after a decade or so, not caring a shit about proper melody lines, Mick was once again composing properly. His best work since TATTOO YOU. Actually Mick re-invented his whole way of singing and rediscovered the rich nuances of his unique voice in this album (after having shouted out more or less without sense and nuance throughout the early decade). Surely the people just concentrating on guitar tracks (and if there is Ronnie or Keef not) do not might hear any difference. But there is.
PRIMITIVE COOL altogether is one of the most interesting albums a Rolling Stone ever has done. Those who are interested in deeper mechanics and dynamics of Rolling Stones development might hear there something crucial going on. It was the last album a proper (not any Woody) Rolling Stone was reinventing his game properly and was ambitious. None of them, not even Jagger, had tried anything like that since then. But many of the experiments tried then are standard now. That's the Mick we hear now singing technically note-to-note now.
I think PRIMITIVE COOL is the last musically forward-going, non-repititive album a Rolling Stone, or if you like, The Rolling Stones, ever have done. The musicologists of future will confim that, when all is said and done. The true story ends there.
Besides, "Piece of the Wicked" is actually the only Rolling Stones-related piece which truely hits its actual target: it is real funk as it should go, not any lazy half-assed simplification (like all those hotstuffs, heynegritas and sexdrives, which are entertaining an sich - at least for some Rolling Stones fans - but not any real bad-ass, groovy funk).
- Doxa
+1 d.f
Thanks for your considerations Doxa.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2019 13:29
Quote
harlem shuffle
To Dandelion Powderman.I really think Talk is cheap is really bad,just terrible.Half finished tracks with nothing on.Shes the boss is on the same level.I dont think everything Keith come up with is good,like you and all the rest of his hangarounds.It,s my personal opinion,so i stay with it always
People hear different things, obviously. However, it would be interesting if you, with your expertise, perhaps would like to tell us what is missing in tracks like Make No Mistake, Take It So Hard, You Don't Move Me, How I Wish and I Could Have Stood You Up?
Regarding half-finished songs, I'd say that's a more suitable description of parts of Main Offender.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2019 13:46
Quote
Doxa
An incredible tune. That's Jagger solo at best - being as far as possible from the safe waters of the Stones, and actually reinventing himself - like he said, that vocal melody was out of his reach but he was forced to do it (by Dave). The musical track is pure 80's pop, as it should be and that's why it funnily makes the difference now, but the song is one of the best Mick ever has composed. The same with some other PRIMITIVE COOL tracks, such as "Kow Tow", "Party Doll", "Throwaway" - after a decade or so, not caring a shit about proper melody lines, Mick was once again composing properly. His best work since TATTOO YOU. Actually Mick re-invented his whole way of singing and rediscovered the rich nuances of his unique voice in this album (after having shouted out more or less without sense and nuance throughout the early decade). Surely the people just concentrating on guitar tracks (and if there is Ronnie or Keef not) do not might hear any difference. But there is.
PRIMITIVE COOL altogether is one of the most interesting albums a Rolling Stone ever has done. Those who are interested in deeper mechanics and dynamics of Rolling Stones development might hear there something crucial going on. It was the last album a proper (not any Woody) Rolling Stone was reinventing his game properly and was ambitious. None of them, not even Jagger, had tried anything like that since then. But many of the experiments tried then are standard now. That's the Mick we hear now singing technically note-to-note now.
I think PRIMITIVE COOL is the last musically forward-going, non-repititive album a Rolling Stone, or if you like, The Rolling Stones, ever have done. The musicologists of future will confim that, when all is said and done. The true story ends there.
Besides, "Piece of the Wicked" is actually the only Rolling Stones-related piece which truely hits its actual target: it is real funk as it should go, not any lazy half-assed simplification (like all those hotstuffs, heynegritas and sexdrives, which are entertaining an sich - at least for some Rolling Stones fans - but not any real bad-ass, groovy funk).
- Doxa
Interesting opinion.
It sounds like you're thinking that trying to reinvent yourself, and leaving your comfort zone is a guarantee for artistic success? Remember that sometimes one falls flat and don't succeed. You should be applauded for trying, but eventually you realise it didn't work (I suspect Mick realised that for PC).
I'm pretty sure if Mick did a solo tour today, he wouldn't pick too many of the PC-songs for the setlist, just like he chose not to in 1988. And that's not because the songs are difficult to do live.
That said, there is definitely good stuff on PC. Actually, there is good stuff on all his solo albums, imo.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: December 10, 2019 14:06
Quote
SomeGuyQuote
Mathijs
Primitive Cool remains to date the worst album of the 1980's. By any band. In any genre.
Mathijs
Annie Schilder?
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: December 10, 2019 15:23
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
Mathijs
Primitive Cool remains to date the worst album of the 1980's. By any band. In any genre.
Mathijs
SAVED by Dylan, KNOCKED OUT LOADED by Dylan, DOWN IN THE GROOVE by Dylan, DAVE DAVIES' self-titled album, GLAMOUR by Dave Davies, CHOSEN PEOPLE by Dave Davies, THINK VISUAL by The Kinks, UK JIVE by The Kinks, EYE OF THE ZOMBIE by John Fogerty, INXS' debut, UNDERNEATH THE COLOURS by INXS, BILL WYMAN's self-titled album, and SHE'S THE BOSS are all far worse, though most of these still have one or two tracks that are worthwhile. And yes, of course, there are many hundreds of others that are far worse.
Oh God, there's WILLIE AND THE POORBOYS from Bill...
No. Primitive Cool is the worst. It's scientifically proven.
It's the worst, as it is the album with the biggest gap between the best and worst work of the artist. If anyone else would have released Primitive Cool it would simply be a terrible album. But because Mick Jagger released the album, it's the worst album of all time.
Mathijs
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: December 10, 2019 15:31
Quote
Mathijs
Primitive Cool remains to date the worst album of the 1980's. By any band. In any genre.
Mathijs
It's a big heap of crap for sure. Jagger managed to get it all wrong.
Sure, one can argue that this song, or that song have certain qualities. Jagger is one of the alltime greats. If he had not learned a little about the songwriting craft along the way, we'd all be in trouble. But the pieces weren't put together right.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 10, 2019 16:28
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
GasLightStreet
I always found Primitive Cool to be unworthy of being even a B-side. It's incredibly chookey. War Baby is embarrassing - who cares if the lyrics tie into Gimme Shelter (I remember reading that thinking THE SONG STILL SUCKS)? The song sucks! Party Doll is horrible as well.
This LP would've been much better as an EP:
Throwaway
Say You Will
Peace For The Wicked
Kow Tow
"Throwaway" and "Kowtow" are terrific. I've never warmed to "Say You Will." I've always found it sort of embarrassing. I'm not a fan of "War Baby." However, your unenlightened and entirely unacceptable personal opinion of "Primitive Cool" and "Party Doll" means I now have to take the Christmas card my wife was mailing you out of the mailbox and burn it in the fireplace. That hurts considering I wasted both a card and a Marvin Gaye commemorative stamp. Perhaps Hairball will have room for you for dinner on Christmas. You've soiled my linen for the last time.
Say You Will is stale gum... but there's something about the change in it that makes it work and it's the weakest good song on the album.
I'm sorry you haven't gotten woke and continue to hang on to an archaic, newsprint dying, RS Stones review nose shining, ploddingly remindful nostalgic mindset about how awful songs are good, even if they're chewing your arm off, rabidly drooling any sense onto the floor: those 2 songs make Indian Girl seem like Wild Horses.
No matter. The door on my mailbox fell off months ago and I haven't bothered to replace it. The Marvin Gaye stamp would only get rurnt by the humidity.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 10, 2019 17:20
Enjoyable as always, Gaslight. About the only thing you're right about is I am not and never will be "woke." I don't respect deliberate misuse of any language and the concept behind it is far closer to Mao's cultural revolution than it is following a golden rule of not being a jerk to others on purpose.
As for PRIMITIVE COOL, what can I say I haven't already? The album was made to tour for the first time since TATTOO YOU.
"Throwaway" is an excellent opener. I loved it then, I love it now. I quibble over the one Beck solo being borrowed (perhaps unconsciously) from Journey (generally speaking, a dirty word in my household).
"Let's Work" is not as bad as its reputation suggests, there is a good rhythm guitar riff (Jagger's) that suggests if he hadn't released an edit of the dance mix as the album track, the undoctored track would likely be stronger.
"Radio Control" is great. A nice James Brown update. Solid funk. Great lyrics. Great vocal delivery. I never stopped loving this track either.
"Say You Will" is okay. The Beach Boys "Do It Again" opening drums turns into "Hard Woman" Part 3 (Part 2 is the one with The Hooters). A bit schmaltzy. A bit obviously 1987 pop power ballad, but not terrible.
"Primitive Cool" is terrific. Great lyrics, vocals, and music. Mick embraces pop prog with some smooth jazz stylings. The template for "Terrifying" lies here. Wonderful from start to finish. A classic that ranks among his best work ever.
"KowTow" is classic as well. Great rocker, stinging lyrics, wonderful vocals and guitar work. I love this and welcomed the echo of it in "Warring People" on SUPERHEAVY. "KowTow" should have become a live standard.
"Shoot Off Your Mouth" is also great. The bluesy licks convince me there's more Jimmy Rip on this track than the others, but who knows? Lyrics, vocal delivery, and music are top notch. Another one that should have been a live centerpiece.
"Peace for the Wicked" is strong. Another solid James Brown-inspired funk tune. I'd love to hear the raw demo with Woody on guitar. Vernon Reid said he's playing the solo on this one. Solid all around. Like most of the album, I never tire of it.
"Party Doll" is exquisite. Mick's country vocal is heartfelt rather than affected. The lyrics are heart-wrenching. The track blends country with its Celtic roots using The Chieftains to terrific effect.
"War Baby" is a disappointment, though not a failure. Mick tries for his "Brothers in Arms" by way of Roger Waters-style WWII sound effects. The callback to "Gimme Shelter" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" by way of "fire sweeps the streets" and a chorus used to better effect than on "Let's Work" seems a bit crass when it intends to evoke baby boomers coming full circle. In many ways, that's the theme of the entire album. The minimalist use of bagpipes by way of The Chieftains helps the track flow from the last one in a holistic fashion.
"Catch As Catch Can" misfires, but shows promise. Mick has a solid enough soul song, but didn't seem to spend enough time developing it. The arrangement would benefit being more traditional, though the point of these sessions was for Mick to truly embrace the sound of the 1980s. He did just that rather convincingly and without echoing Jackson or Prince as he did on SHE'S THE BOSS and "Too Much Blood."
All in all, an excellent album that never disappoints.
All other opinions (which is 99% of the people who ever listened to the album) are, of course, wrong.
As for PRIMITIVE COOL, what can I say I haven't already? The album was made to tour for the first time since TATTOO YOU.
"Throwaway" is an excellent opener. I loved it then, I love it now. I quibble over the one Beck solo being borrowed (perhaps unconsciously) from Journey (generally speaking, a dirty word in my household).
"Let's Work" is not as bad as its reputation suggests, there is a good rhythm guitar riff (Jagger's) that suggests if he hadn't released an edit of the dance mix as the album track, the undoctored track would likely be stronger.
"Radio Control" is great. A nice James Brown update. Solid funk. Great lyrics. Great vocal delivery. I never stopped loving this track either.
"Say You Will" is okay. The Beach Boys "Do It Again" opening drums turns into "Hard Woman" Part 3 (Part 2 is the one with The Hooters). A bit schmaltzy. A bit obviously 1987 pop power ballad, but not terrible.
"Primitive Cool" is terrific. Great lyrics, vocals, and music. Mick embraces pop prog with some smooth jazz stylings. The template for "Terrifying" lies here. Wonderful from start to finish. A classic that ranks among his best work ever.
"KowTow" is classic as well. Great rocker, stinging lyrics, wonderful vocals and guitar work. I love this and welcomed the echo of it in "Warring People" on SUPERHEAVY. "KowTow" should have become a live standard.
"Shoot Off Your Mouth" is also great. The bluesy licks convince me there's more Jimmy Rip on this track than the others, but who knows? Lyrics, vocal delivery, and music are top notch. Another one that should have been a live centerpiece.
"Peace for the Wicked" is strong. Another solid James Brown-inspired funk tune. I'd love to hear the raw demo with Woody on guitar. Vernon Reid said he's playing the solo on this one. Solid all around. Like most of the album, I never tire of it.
"Party Doll" is exquisite. Mick's country vocal is heartfelt rather than affected. The lyrics are heart-wrenching. The track blends country with its Celtic roots using The Chieftains to terrific effect.
"War Baby" is a disappointment, though not a failure. Mick tries for his "Brothers in Arms" by way of Roger Waters-style WWII sound effects. The callback to "Gimme Shelter" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" by way of "fire sweeps the streets" and a chorus used to better effect than on "Let's Work" seems a bit crass when it intends to evoke baby boomers coming full circle. In many ways, that's the theme of the entire album. The minimalist use of bagpipes by way of The Chieftains helps the track flow from the last one in a holistic fashion.
"Catch As Catch Can" misfires, but shows promise. Mick has a solid enough soul song, but didn't seem to spend enough time developing it. The arrangement would benefit being more traditional, though the point of these sessions was for Mick to truly embrace the sound of the 1980s. He did just that rather convincingly and without echoing Jackson or Prince as he did on SHE'S THE BOSS and "Too Much Blood."
All in all, an excellent album that never disappoints.
All other opinions (which is 99% of the people who ever listened to the album) are, of course, wrong.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 10, 2019 17:25
Quote
SomeGuy
And don't forget the rather pretty, 45's B side, Catch As Catch Can. All in all I'd say Primitive Cool is my second favourite Jagger solo record. Also I don't have a problem with the supposed 80s sound. I know lots more awful sounding records than this one from that era, that no one complains about.
I don't really know you, SomeGuy, but you can have Gaslight's seat for dinner on Christmas. I'll tell the wife to expect you.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: December 10, 2019 17:34
I don't hear innovation or trend chasing or creativity -- just a guy going to the office and manufacturing some dance pop and schmaltzy ballads.
He probably spent most of the day talking to the distribution people or looking at proofs for the album cover.
He probably spent most of the day talking to the distribution people or looking at proofs for the album cover.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 10, 2019 17:59
Quote
wonderboy
He probably spent most of the day looking at proofs for the album cover.
I hate the Mick as Gollum or Mick as a Dybbuk cover art for the album. After Francesco Clemente's brilliant picture sleeve for "One Hit (to the Body)," what happened?
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
deardoctor
()
Date: December 10, 2019 18:02
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
harlem shuffle
To Dandelion Powderman.I really think Talk is cheap is really bad,just terrible.Half finished tracks with nothing on.Shes the boss is on the same level.I dont think everything Keith come up with is good,like you and all the rest of his hangarounds.It,s my personal opinion,so i stay with it always
People hear different things, obviously. However, it would be interesting if you, with your expertise, perhaps would like to tell us what is missing in tracks like Make No Mistake, Take It So Hard, You Don't Move Me, How I Wish and I Could Have Stood You Up?
Regarding half-finished songs, I'd say that's a more suitable description of parts of Main Offender.
That's what I thought too, reading your post. You're talking about Main offender, at least parts (not Wicked as it seems...)
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
TooTough
()
Date: December 10, 2019 18:11
Quote
SomeGuyQuote
Mathijs
Primitive Cool remains to date the worst album of the 1980's. By any band. In any genre.
Mathijs
Annie Schilder?
Don´t forget all those dreadful metal bands in spandex and glossy makeup.
Poison for example.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 10, 2019 19:16
Quote
deardoctor
That's what I thought too, reading your post. You're talking about Main offender, at least parts (not Wicked as it seems...)
I think the unfinished song structure is something Keith aims for, not something he thought was good enough because he lacks the ability to polish it. He was going for something raw. It's Keith on guitar and vocals so a Stones connection is unavoidable, but he wanted the funk, soul, and reggae influences to be authentic and not just influences. He wanted the rockers to have a funk sensibility in their arrangements along with a touch of Tom Waits Island Records aesthetic where the rule book is thrown out and you chase a rhythm wherever it leads while finding unorthodox ways to layer a vocal over it. He wanted tribal harmonies that connected him to Jamaica and were anti-Stones (although starting with STEEL WHEELS, the Stones have sometimes adopted this approach).
It's all about communication between guitar and drums. If you find joy hearing the DIRTY WORK demos or a track like "Slave" then you know what Keith was aiming for. Getting hung up on how high the drums were mixed or how rough the compositions are is missing the point entirely. It isn't pop, it's anti-pop. He wasn't trying to adapt to the current trend or live up to his past, he was redefining his sound and image in a way that respected the past outlaw human riff and saw the way forward into a rootsy elder statesman who lives the rhythm. From that standpoint he succeeded because he found his niche, a niche life as a Rolling Stone permitted him to enjoy.
Mick, by contrast, could never do that - not because of lack of talent or because Keith is better, but because Mick on his own is the voice and polish and structure. The result is really good or disappointing because the yardstick Mick as a solo artist is measured against is the Stones' best work. Mick could not establish his own expectations the way Keith could. Mick had the harder task. The fact that he succeeded (solely my view, of course) so well about 50% of the time is proof of his enduring talent and the slow decline in his creative faculties. Keith, by contrast, found a corner where he could thrive almost outside of the mainstream.
This view, of course, is why I enjoy both Mick and Keith as solo artists and find their solo work essential to understanding the band's studio output these past 35 years.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: December 10, 2019 20:16
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
SomeGuy
And don't forget the rather pretty, 45's B side, Catch As Catch Can. All in all I'd say Primitive Cool is my second favourite Jagger solo record. Also I don't have a problem with the supposed 80s sound. I know lots more awful sounding records than this one from that era, that no one complains about.
I don't really know you, SomeGuy, but you can have Gaslight's seat for dinner on Christmas. I'll tell the wife to expect you.
Thanks Rocky, for the invitation. I'll bring my Journey records.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 10, 2019 20:52
Quote
SomeGuyQuote
deardoctorQuote
harlem shuffle
One of the worst albums in the eighties is Talk is Cheap,very very bad,not one single song is good on this album.
Just some riffs,almost without melody
This is an amazing opinion.
Maybe, you should revisit and listen three times in row.
It took a while for me as well. I promise, it will grow...
I'm not fond of it either, I must say. Especially the drum sound I find irksome (I know that Mick Jagger agrees with me). It was the album that Keith didn't want to make, and that's exactly how it sounds to me. Also the inclusion of Mick Taylor sounded promising but the song he plays on is silly, while anyone could have played what he played on it.
Main Offender and the recent one are better, in my opinion.
I am one of the surprised readers. As such, I am one who is somewhat (or even quite) bored by CROSSEYED HEART (after my approximately 30 listenings), whereas I do like "Gotta Get a Grip"/ "England Lost". So I am hardly an anti-Mick poster. However, to me TALK IS CHEAP is the best solo Rolling Stones related album, this because listening to Mick making a Rolling Stones album with other musicians and with fine song material, I end up missing the band so much that I slightly prefer TALK IS CHEAP to WANDERING SPIRIT.
Then I also do like SHE'S THE BOSS quite much. And to me "Hard Woman" in no way is dated; I still adore it. Apart from "Hate It When You Leave" and "Memo from Turner", to me "Hard Woman" is one of the very best songs of a Rolling Stones solo issue.
I read Doxa's post with much interest. I don't want to protest, but I am unable to say that I share that view on PRIMITIVE COOL. Even if I may appreciate quite many songs in isolation, but especially as a whole, that to me is the weakest of Mick Jagger's four solo albums. (I have never heard ALFIE, I have to admit, and I don't know if that album has status as a Jagger solo album).
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
floodonthepage
()
Date: December 10, 2019 22:26
Quote
Witness
I am one of the surprised readers. As such, I am one who is somewhat (or even quite) bored by CROSSEYED HEART (after my approximately 30 listenings), whereas I do like "Gotta Get a Grip"/ "England Lost". So I am hardly an anti-Mick poster. However, to me TALK IS CHEAP is the best solo Rolling Stones related album, this because listening to Mick making a Rolling Stones album with other musicians and with fine song material, I end up missing the band so much that I slightly prefer TALK IS CHEAP to WANDERING SPIRIT.
Then I also do like SHE'S THE BOSS quite much. And to me "Hard Woman" in no way is dated; I still adore it. Apart from "Hate It When You Leave" and "Memo from Turner", to me "Hard Woman" is one of the very best songs of a Rolling Stones solo issue.
I read Doxa's post with much interest. I don't want to protest, but I am unable to say that I share that view on PRIMITIVE COOL. Even if I may appreciate quite many songs in isolation, but especially as a whole, that to me is the weakest of Mick Jagger's four solo albums. (I have never heard ALFIE, I have to admit, and I don't know if that album has status as a Jagger solo album).
Agreed on 'Talk is Cheap' and "Hard Woman". 'Wandering Spirit' has weakened somewhat for me over the years for the same reason that I miss the band, but not 'Talk is Cheap'. And "Hard Woman" still stands tall for me. Great ballad.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
wanderingspirit66
()
Date: December 11, 2019 01:17
Quote
Rocky Dijon
Enjoyable as always, Gaslight. About the only thing you're right about is I am not and never will be "woke." I don't respect deliberate misuse of any language and the concept behind it is far closer to Mao's cultural revolution than it is following a golden rule of not being a jerk to others on purpose.
As for PRIMITIVE COOL, what can I say I haven't already? The album was made to tour for the first time since TATTOO YOU.
"Throwaway" is an excellent opener. I loved it then, I love it now. I quibble over the one Beck solo being borrowed (perhaps unconsciously) from Journey (generally speaking, a dirty word in my household).
"Let's Work" is not as bad as its reputation suggests, there is a good rhythm guitar riff (Jagger's) that suggests if he hadn't released an edit of the dance mix as the album track, the undoctored track would likely be stronger.
"Radio Control" is great. A nice James Brown update. Solid funk. Great lyrics. Great vocal delivery. I never stopped loving this track either.
"Say You Will" is okay. The Beach Boys "Do It Again" opening drums turns into "Hard Woman" Part 3 (Part 2 is the one with The Hooters). A bit schmaltzy. A bit obviously 1987 pop power ballad, but not terrible.
"Primitive Cool" is terrific. Great lyrics, vocals, and music. Mick embraces pop prog with some smooth jazz stylings. The template for "Terrifying" lies here. Wonderful from start to finish. A classic that ranks among his best work ever.
"KowTow" is classic as well. Great rocker, stinging lyrics, wonderful vocals and guitar work. I love this and welcomed the echo of it in "Warring People" on SUPERHEAVY. "KowTow" should have become a live standard.
"Shoot Off Your Mouth" is also great. The bluesy licks convince me there's more Jimmy Rip on this track than the others, but who knows? Lyrics, vocal delivery, and music are top notch. Another one that should have been a live centerpiece.
"Peace for the Wicked" is strong. Another solid James Brown-inspired funk tune. I'd love to hear the raw demo with Woody on guitar. Vernon Reid said he's playing the solo on this one. Solid all around. Like most of the album, I never tire of it.
"Party Doll" is exquisite. Mick's country vocal is heartfelt rather than affected. The lyrics are heart-wrenching. The track blends country with its Celtic roots using The Chieftains to terrific effect.
"War Baby" is a disappointment, though not a failure. Mick tries for his "Brothers in Arms" by way of Roger Waters-style WWII sound effects. The callback to "Gimme Shelter" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" by way of "fire sweeps the streets" and a chorus used to better effect than on "Let's Work" seems a bit crass when it intends to evoke baby boomers coming full circle. In many ways, that's the theme of the entire album. The minimalist use of bagpipes by way of The Chieftains helps the track flow from the last one in a holistic fashion.
"Catch As Catch Can" misfires, but shows promise. Mick has a solid enough soul song, but didn't seem to spend enough time developing it. The arrangement would benefit being more traditional, though the point of these sessions was for Mick to truly embrace the sound of the 1980s. He did just that rather convincingly and without echoing Jackson or Prince as he did on SHE'S THE BOSS and "Too Much Blood."
All in all, an excellent album that never disappoints.
All other opinions (which is 99% of the people who ever listened to the album) are, of course, wrong.
Focusing on Party Doll
For me, the video below is both (un)watchable and (un)listenable. A bit sad to see and hear Jagger the aesthete, completely loose his appreciation of art and form - his visual and aural aesthetic.
[www.youtube.com]
Contrast this with Mary Chapin Carpenter's cover of the same song
[www.youtube.com]
Somewhere during the 80's, Jagger forgot how to interpret the songs he wrote and what to convey. He lost that feeling, but yet, this Mary Chapin Carpenter version is a reminder that when you peel the layers, you uncover the songwriting god that Jagger was and still is.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-11 01:21 by wanderingspirit66.
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: December 11, 2019 01:29
…. heck I'd take Mick's anyday ….
Carpenter's is cardboard to me ….
I'd be thru the guard rail within half a mile zzzzzzz
ROCKMAN
Carpenter's is cardboard to me ….
I'd be thru the guard rail within half a mile zzzzzzz
ROCKMAN
Re: Jagger: "Say You Will"
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: December 11, 2019 01:59
Re: Party Doll, the song could have been written over lunch by any one of a thousand Nashville songwriters. It could have perhaps been lifted by the performance, but by this time, Jagger was all artifice and posing. It's a shame that the singer who could make you feel he was distraught when he 'saw you stretched out in Room 10-09' doesn't even sell pathos on this one.
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