There was a time when they seemed to have outgrown the need for a producer's guiding hand: beginning with It's Only Rock n Roll right on through Tattoo You.

Coincidentally, it's only when they brought in "associate" producers like Chris Kimsey et al. that their long decline became evident -- Undercover, Dirty Work, Steel Wheels, etc. Should have just kept Kimsey as the sound engineer.

They didn't need a Don Was or even a Jimmy Miller for Some Girls -- they had the determination, something to prove to a new emerging audience, and, most important, they had the material to compete with the best of what was out there at the time.

If you don't have the goods to deliver to begin with, then no amount of outside help will do the job.

Is that really the place of Don Was among the Stones? For mood enhancement and other diplomatic functions? That isn't producing, that's counseling.

I wonder if this thread will get merged with that ancient "new album in 2090?" thread.

Quote
stone66
There was a time when they seemed to have outgrown the need for a producer's guiding hand: beginning with It's Only Rock n Roll right on through Tattoo You.

Coincidentally, it's only when they brought in "associate" producers like Chris Kimsey et al. that their long decline became evident -- Undercover, Dirty Work, Steel Wheels, etc. Should have just kept Kimsey as the sound engineer.

They didn't need a Don Was or even a Jimmy Miller for Some Girls -- they had the determination, something to prove to a new emerging audience, and, most important, they had the material to compete with the best of what was out there at the time.

If you don't have the goods to deliver to begin with, then no amount of outside help will do the job.

Is that really the place of Don Was among the Stones? For mood enhancement and other diplomatic functions? That isn't producing, that's counseling.

I wonder if this thread will get merged with that ancient "new album in 2090?" thread.

Hm, what would SG and TY be without Kimsey?

Quote
Spodlumt
The only two people who should be let anywhere near a Stones studio session is Chris Kimsey and Bob Clearmountain.

And me. And I promise I wouldn't say a thing.

Kimsey's Associate Producer credit was more of a kindness to an engineer recognizing his sizable contribution and helping him advance. The Stones were his first producer credits. Consider the good fortune to be Chris Kimsey at that point in time and have an artist like The Stones make you a producer.

Starting with the CBS deal, an outside producer was something required by the label. These were huge contracts. There was much at stake for the labels, not just finding someone to safely navigate the waters between Camp Mick and Camp Keith.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Kimsey's Associate Producer credit was more of a kindness to an engineer recognizing his sizable contribution and helping him advance. The Stones were his first producer credits. Consider the good fortune to be Chris Kimsey at that point in time and have an artist like The Stones make you a producer.

Starting with the CBS deal, an outside producer was something required by the label. These were huge contracts. There was much at stake for the labels, not just finding someone to safely navigate the waters between Camp Mick and Camp Keith.

When you shape excellent songs out of 10-15 minutes unstructured jams, you surely deserve that credit - not to mention picking which songs Mick should work on for TY?

Quote
peoplewitheyes
I never knew that about Love Shack, Rockster. It does sound incredibly Stonesy for sure.

This track came out in the late 70's way before Don Was collaborated with the Stones

Quote
DandelionPowderman
When you shape excellent songs out of 10-15 minutes unstructured jams, you surely deserve that credit - not to mention picking which songs Mick should work on for TY?

Sure, but his first Associate Producer credit is on EMOTIONAL RESCUE. During press for SOME GIRLS they gave him a great deal of credit for how good the album sounded. While that may seem only proper, it is also a rarity. How many times do they mention their engineer repeatedly when promoting an album?

Quote
TheGreek

Quote
peoplewitheyes
I never knew that about Love Shack, Rockster. It does sound incredibly Stonesy for sure.

This track came out in the late 70's way before Don Was collaborated with the Stones

It was before he produced the Stones, but it came out in 1989.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-11-27 18:36 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
DandelionPowderman
When you shape excellent songs out of 10-15 minutes unstructured jams, you surely deserve that credit - not to mention picking which songs Mick should work on for TY?

Sure, but his first Associate Producer credit is on EMOTIONAL RESCUE. During press for SOME GIRLS they gave him a great deal of credit for how good the album sounded. While that may seem only proper, it is also a rarity. How many times do they mention their engineer repeatedly when promoting an album?

Indeed. But they did so because he did a tremendous amount of work on those three albums. We have heard the long versions, so if the Stones gave him carte blanche to edit, shape and produce that was a natural development, imo.

He was back as engineer only on SWAY, wasn't he?

Maybe the Stones would like to do the @#$%& they want and not listen to an @#$%& telling them how to do and what to do!

Maybe the Stones just @#$%& the @#$%& in the @#$%& though that would be @#$%&

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Indeed. But they did so because he did a tremendous amount of work on those three albums. We have heard the long versions, so if the Stones gave him carte blanche to edit, shape and produce that was a natural development, imo.

He was back as engineer only on SWAY, wasn't he?

Oh I agree he definitely earned the right to a full producer credit by the time of UNDERCOVER and arguably before. I just meant he was in the right place at the right time and had the talent to deliver what they needed. I can't imagine that happening to Krishna Sharma for instance. I don't think they've ever mentioned him in interviews though he's been around (off and on) for as long as Don Was in their circles. Even more to the point is the falling out with Glyn Johns over BLACK AND BLUE and Mick's bitchy remarks about "some people think they're producers, but they're really just engineers" during the album's promotion.

Chris was an assistant engineer to Andy Johns on STICKY FINGERS. If I remember correctly, he was called out to Mick's house when Andy was sick or had a sick child and couldn't make it. It was one of the first sessions with the Mobile truck. Kimsey and Mick reconnected just before SOME GIRLS when Kimsey was engineering Peter Frampton. Mick sang on Frampton's version of "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" and then offered Kimsey the chance to record the Stones.

A Charmed Life indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-11-27 19:18 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
Nikkei
Maybe the Stones just @#$%& the @#$%& in the @#$%& though that would be @#$%&

Pretty sure those are lyrics to the single Decca rejected in 1970.

Quote
gotdablouse
however your recollection of the 2012 tracks is not mine, at least based on how Mick told the story, i.e. he sent some tracks to DW and his engineer and after listening they asked if he had something else, he then sent them "what he knew they wanted" (so something possibly a bit more "obvious") and that turned out to be "Doom & Gloom".

Anyway that thread is not here to sh*t on DW but to share the insight that a respected (and no BS) musician like Gorman gives on how he works (or at least worked in 2000) as it could be of some interest to, huh, Stones fans. Especially those that were perplexed at seeing him sitting on the floor in the studio, with his shades and hat, during the 2002 sessions in Paris.

I must have reversed the story in my rapidly aging memory. Thanks for setting me straight. Makes more sense your way.

Pretty sure there's footage of him sitting on the floor during the L.A. mixing sessions for the EXILE reissue as well. He does look like he wandered offstage at Altamont, but I like him in interviews (when he knocks off the hip routine). I think he's a good bass player and keyboard player. I like what he's done with Blue Note Records. He had a definite sound for awhile. You hear it on the big Bonnie Raitt album, the Dylan album, the Brian Wilson album, and even a few tracks with the Stones. He's like the half-way point between Jeff Lynne and Rick Rubin as a producer.

He's safe and they need safe and comfortable. They're far too old for anything else. Their decisions who replaces people (Bobby, Lisa, etc.) prove that. Bernard, Don, Chuck, and Matt bring something they feel they need the same as Steve and Waddy do for Keith or Dave Stewart for Mick on his own. Whether that's a crutch or not doesn't really matter this late in the game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-11-27 19:29 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Indeed. But they did so because he did a tremendous amount of work on those three albums. We have heard the long versions, so if the Stones gave him carte blanche to edit, shape and produce that was a natural development, imo.

He was back as engineer only on SWAY, wasn't he?

Oh I agree he definitely earned the right to a full producer credit by the time of UNDERCOVER and arguably before. I just meant he was in the right place at the right time and had the talent to deliver what they needed. I can't imagine that happening to Krishna Sharma for instance. I don't think they've ever mentioned him in interviews though he's been around (off and on) for as long as Don Was in their circles. Even more to the point is the falling out with Glyn Johns over BLACK AND BLUE and Mick's bitchy remarks about "some people think they're producers, but they're really just engineers" during the album's promotion.

Chris was an assistant engineer to Andy Johns on STICKY FINGERS. If I remember correctly, he was called out to Mick's house when Andy was sick or had a sick child and couldn't make it. It was one of the first sessions with the Mobile truck. Kimsey and Mick reconnected just before SOME GIRLS when Kimsey was engineering Peter Frampton. Mick sang on Frampton's version of "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" and then offered Kimsey the chance to record the Stones.

A Charmed Life indeed.

Gotcha!

And I meant SW, of course - not Sway

Oh okay. No he produced STEEL WHEELS. Chris Potter engineered.

Quote
stone66


Coincidentally, it's only when they brought in "associate" producers like Chris Kimsey et al. that their long decline became evident -- Undercover, Dirty Work, Steel Wheels, etc. Should have just kept Kimsey as the sound engineer.

They needed a middle-man to prevent the friction between Keef and Mick to go dangerously bad. Kimsey earnt them a few more years of relative peace i.e. the 1985 WWIII would have happened much earlier (late 82?) if the Twins had been alone in the studio.
"Well f&ck you then... No f&ck YOU!" etc etc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-11-28 11:33 by dcba.

<They needed a middle-man to prevent the friction between Keef and Mick to go dangerously bad>

Yet he went out of his way to make room for three Keith-songs on B2B.

Perhaps Keith wanted to sing on five songs on the album to begin with...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-11-27 21:58 by DandelionPowderman.

There's a Mick lead vocal for "Thief in the Night" out there somewhere...

….mmmmmmmmm now that I'd love ta hear …. ^^^^^^^^^



ROCKMAN

He’s been touring with Bob Weir’s side gig fir the last few years playing bass. I like him in that context

Quote
liddas
Yet Lions is one hell of an album!

C

_________________________________________


Was Don's idea to rent the studio space (theater) they did .. and record it in the fashion they did on that album. Being as Lions is my all time favorite album from an aural / production standpoint I have researched the making of it long ago (and guess what .. I am not / was never keen to The Black Crows much at all .. In fact .. before I heard Lions they bored me and I thought they were overrated... true stuff).


Whatever occurred as per Don Was's input or influence on that record is that the end result is that Lions production is / sounds simply fantastic. Lions is indeed a fantastic album .. (By far and way it is the best and most unique The Black Crows has ever sounded before or since). Not much a big Black Crows guy .. but I adore 'Lions' -


Ian

I thought The Crowes should have stuck with George Drakoulias, especially what he did with SOUTHERN HARMONY AND MUSICAL COMPANION.

I wondered, since Mick was allegedly influenced in selecting Rick Rubin in part because he was taking credit for The Crowes, if Mick selected Jack Joseph Puig because of his work on the third and fourth Crowes albums. A pity Mick never let Puig produce. GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY might have been a different experience if Steve Salas had been on board for the album and Puig had produced.

I like LIONS plenty. It was what I thought the direction of A BIGGER BANG might be since LIONS makes sense as the next step from B2B in my mind at least. Instead they seemed to be trying more for The White Stripes (and one Black Eyed Peas-type production).

Rick Rubin for sure. Mutt Lange? Or how about George Clinton?? That would be a hell of a fun experiment.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stone66
There was a time when they seemed to have outgrown the need for a producer's guiding hand: beginning with It's Only Rock n Roll right on through Tattoo You.

Coincidentally, it's only when they brought in "associate" producers like Chris Kimsey et al. that their long decline became evident -- Undercover, Dirty Work, Steel Wheels, etc. Should have just kept Kimsey as the sound engineer.

They didn't need a Don Was or even a Jimmy Miller for Some Girls -- they had the determination, something to prove to a new emerging audience, and, most important, they had the material to compete with the best of what was out there at the time.

If you don't have the goods to deliver to begin with, then no amount of outside help will do the job.

Is that really the place of Don Was among the Stones? For mood enhancement and other diplomatic functions? That isn't producing, that's counseling.

I wonder if this thread will get merged with that ancient "new album in 2090?" thread.

Hm, what would SG and TY be without Kimsey?

The Stones listing Kimsey as a producer and co-producer is probably them doing him a favor. In being picky with how U, DW and SW turned out, someone pointed out that ever since IORR they didn't need a producer, or something, yet with Kimsey...

SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU happened. Miss You. Start Me Up. EMOTIONAL RESCUE, their biggest number one LP ever.

Kimsey was a problem?

It's easy to associate producer with eras thanks to Jimmy Miller but, given the Stones' history (The Beatles released some crap under George Martin), just how much does anyone think they did a good or great job of their albums being Produced by The Glimmer Twins? Do people associate that with album sales? If they do then EXILE is a failure and IORR and BLACK AND BLUE are a huge success.

A better job of being an engineer than a producer? Said by someone that gave us Let's Work, Charmed Life, SHE'S THE BOSS, Shoot Off Your Mouth, Primitive Cool, Party Doll and Get A Grip yet alone Streets Of Love, Winning Ugly, On No Not You Again, Already Suffering, Might As Well Get Juiced, Sweet Neo Con and quite a few others.

A conflict of interest is hilarious but perhaps Mick (and Keith, eventually) actually had that... with his/their ego leading the way. Great and bad songs aside, a producer will make them sound however - it's still up to the artist to give them that.

Don Was came in way after the fact and he succeeded and failed with VOODOO, BRIDGES and BANG... but didn't, right? Because in the end, the Glimmers...

Exactly.

How a man who is so right about everything else continues to fail to appreciate the joys of "Honest Man" boggles the mind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-11-28 07:19 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
How a man who is so right about everything else continues to fail to appreciate the joys of "Honest Man" boggles the mind.

It's too similar to Sweet Thing. I actually agree with him

I’d love to listen to just one new song produced by ALO.
Jimmy Miller replaced him very well, but nowadays there’s no one sroud who add bis two cents to the Rolling Stones music. IMO. Bye,

Quote
Rocky Dijon
He's safe and they need safe and comfortable. They're far too old for anything else.

They weren't old in 93/94 during the making of VL. The flood of boot tapes from these sessions show the final choice of songs to be worked on and put on VL was - to say the least - questionable as some outtakes/demos had a true potential.

Who's to blame for this string of bad choices? Was? Was and Keef?