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Yes...but only if they have the agreement of The Stones, it seems.
No they can't as far as I understand the current situation.
Rock n Roll Circus formed part of the original 1975 ABKCO / Stones settlement as per my post in a different thread. Mick and Keith got a million $ in respect of royalties owed, in exchange ABKCO got permission for 4 albums to include 1 LP of previously unreleased material and the Circus as a second.
Not sure what Bill, Charlie and Brian's estate got out of that - presumably the shaft.
The Stones gave ABKCO the Bill-compiled Black Box as the LP of unreleased tracks. ABKCO didn't like it and compiled and released Metamorphosis instead.
ABKCO got permission to release Rock n Roll Circus specifically from this settlement. I imagine in some respects, while Mick wasn't happy about that, he probably thought getting permission from the other artists would be enough of a pain in the bum that it would at least cause ABKCO stress and of course, it didn't actually get released for years. Permissions involved would be needed from Lennon and The Who, both of whom had reason to be very pissed at Klein/ABKCO.
When it did get it's anniversary release, the bonus was a Beatles song (Revolution). Speaking as a Beatles fan, that would be hilarious under any other circumstances (apologies) but this whole situation is appalling for music lovers and in particular Stones fans of which I am also very definitely one.
The other 2 albums as part of the 4 LP deal were an Oldham compiled retrospective (Rolled Gold) and a TV advertised greatest hits (Get Stoned).
That's the 4 LP's ABKCO were granted.
ABKCO are not allowed to tinker with the original LPs or release any "new" items from the "Decca-era" catalogue without the co-operation/say-so of Mick and co.
The BBC stuff was presumably covered by a separate situation, ditto Charlie Is My Darling / Yah Yah's but all 3 are basically live albums and not Decca catalogue as such.
Much as I don't want to defend ABKCO, this whole "anniversary" mess without bonus tracks is not their call although that doesn't excuse the lack of decent sleeve notes and packaging every time the catalogue has been re-issued over the decades and the high cost of a mono fold down Let It Bleed which is totally outrageous. (and no cake figurines either).
BBC and Charlie Is My Darling were not owned by ABKCO. Ya Yas was, however, so I think they had to make an agreement with The Stones for releasing that one. Remember the trouble The Stones experienced when they wanted to release a 1973 live album. It goes both ways.
You're not paying for a LIB-fold-down, btw. You're paying for an upgrade in sound, judging by the TSMR and BB-releases.
I haven't seen that confirmed. Was LIB a fold-down on the mono-box as well?
Yes. Let It Bleed has only been mixed to stereo and the mono is a fold.
So is all of Beggars (IIRC) except Sympathy For The Devil which was a dedicated mono mix.
Thanks. What about the SF mono-mix that circulated a few years ago?
I don't know about the mono Sticky Fingers I'm afraid.
I'd be very surprised if genuine mono mixes were still being done by that point although it's not impossible. Someone else here might know.
Sometimes things disappear if you fold-down and haven't been careful checking your stereo mix by folding it down every once in a while while mixing.
I think that's why Sympathy For The Devil got a real mono mix, because a bunch of stuff vanished / cancelled out when the stereo was folded down ?
I am reliably informed that when Mick and Keith appeared on Top Gear in 1968 (BBC Radio) to promote the Beggars album (not mentioned in the On Air book iirc), Mick and Keith heard the stereo LP played over the mono airwaves and made John Peel play Sympathy again later in the show from the proper mono mix!!
To demonstrate what a dreadful mess the Stones / Decca / ABKCO catalogue has pretty much always been mix-wise, here's some further mono info Lukpac very kindly compiled concerning the Stones In Mono Box at the Hoffman board a while back.
"The Rolling Stones - only available in mono
12 X 5 - half the tracks are only available in mono, the other half are fold-downs of stereo mixes in mono
No. 2 - 7 of the 12 tracks only exist in mono. 4 of the remaining tracks are fold-downs of stereo mixes in mono, while the 5th has unique mono and stereo mixes
Now! - 9 tracks only exist in mono, 2 are fold-downs of stereo mixes in mono, and 1 has unique mono and stereo mixes
OOOH (US) - 9 tracks only exist in mono, 2 have released mono and stereo mixes, and 1 has a released mono mix and an unreleased stereo mix
December's Children - 10 tracks only exist in mono, 1 is a fold-down of a stereo mix in mono, and 1 has released mono and stereo mixes"
Do the math on what was actually significant about those LP's on CD in the Mono box. It's a bit of a shocker, even if the presentation and sound was nice.
None of which I'm complaining about, it was kind of unavoidable for the mono box but it goes to show how poorly the Stones 60s catalogue was / has been / and is treated back in the day and to this day. It's a complete mess of genuine mono, genuine stereo and fold downs.
Where the mono box really scored big for me was - UK Aftermath / UK Buttons and Satanic Maj. in true mono but "The Rolling Stones Remaining Unavailable Catalogue Genuine Mono Mixes" is probably a bit niche as a marketing strategy.
In comparison to the mop heads, Kinks, Dylan, well, everyone else who released a mono box, there was a superlative bunch of hype attached to a large part of the Stones mono box because in so many cases, either the genuine mono had always been the only available mix of any kind, mono or stereo, or the mono was always actually a fold down.
This compares very unfavourably to the Beatles In Mono which is essential and has the added bonus of not including Maxwell's Silver Hammer or Long and Winding Road, a bonus if ever I heard one, better than any bonus ABKCO has ever offered !!!!
In The Beatles mono box, I don't think there was a single fold down and the 4 Yellow Submarine tracks, which had previously only been released in mono as fold-downs, were issued in their previously unissued vintage true mono mixes which had been prepared for a potential EP in 68 / 69.
It is fair to say that the Stones Decca catalogue is always going to be an absolute mess....even with bonus tracks !
So going back to Let It Bleed, £145 for a potentially slight upgrade (eq / compression tweak of the master that I may not be able to significantly hear on my equipment) of the stereo mix that I already have at least 3 different vinyl / cd copies of and a mono fold down (which I have on vinyl and digital) is quite steep. And no cake figurines !!
and you have to wonder why, if this new issue is going to be a big upgrade, what were they playing at the other times they issued this on cd.
Sorry I sound grumpy about this ! It's very frustrating though.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: September 15, 2019 17:12
Quote
whitem8
Abkco can released unreleased material they have done so with rock ‘n’ roll Circus. Both of beggars banquet and let it bleed releases are cash grabs. They suck! And as somebody stated above letters won’t help just don’t buy them . When they sell like shit they might figure it out.
Yes...but only if they have the agreement of The Stones, it seems.
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: September 15, 2019 18:55
Quote
whitem8
Abkco can released unreleased material they have done so with rock ‘n’ roll Circus. Both of beggars banquet and let it bleed releases are cash grabs. They suck! And as somebody stated above letters won’t help just don’t buy them . When they sell like shit they might figure it out.
No they can't as far as I understand the current situation.
Rock n Roll Circus formed part of the original 1975 ABKCO / Stones settlement as per my post in a different thread. Mick and Keith got a million $ in respect of royalties owed, in exchange ABKCO got permission for 4 albums to include 1 LP of previously unreleased material and the Circus as a second.
Not sure what Bill, Charlie and Brian's estate got out of that - presumably the shaft.
The Stones gave ABKCO the Bill-compiled Black Box as the LP of unreleased tracks. ABKCO didn't like it and compiled and released Metamorphosis instead.
ABKCO got permission to release Rock n Roll Circus specifically from this settlement. I imagine in some respects, while Mick wasn't happy about that, he probably thought getting permission from the other artists would be enough of a pain in the bum that it would at least cause ABKCO stress and of course, it didn't actually get released for years. Permissions involved would be needed from Lennon and The Who, both of whom had reason to be very pissed at Klein/ABKCO.
When it did get it's anniversary release, the bonus was a Beatles song (Revolution). Speaking as a Beatles fan, that would be hilarious under any other circumstances (apologies) but this whole situation is appalling for music lovers and in particular Stones fans of which I am also very definitely one.
The other 2 albums as part of the 4 LP deal were an Oldham compiled retrospective (Rolled Gold) and a TV advertised greatest hits (Get Stoned).
That's the 4 LP's ABKCO were granted.
ABKCO are not allowed to tinker with the original LPs or release any "new" items from the "Decca-era" catalogue without the co-operation/say-so of Mick and co.
The BBC stuff was presumably covered by a separate situation, ditto Charlie Is My Darling / Yah Yah's but all 3 are basically live albums and not Decca catalogue as such.
Much as I don't want to defend ABKCO, this whole "anniversary" mess without bonus tracks is not their call although that doesn't excuse the lack of decent sleeve notes and packaging every time the catalogue has been re-issued over the decades and the high cost of a mono fold down Let It Bleed which is totally outrageous. (and no cake figurines either).
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
barbabang
()
Date: September 15, 2019 19:16
While I agree with the, for us fans, pointless anniversary editions, the mastering is in good hands at ABCKO! Whether cd's sacd's or vinyl. Spinning Flowers on cd right now (London Records Edition) The sound is really good. The mastering with products from Universal leaves a lot to be desired. For me anyway. A lot is brickwalled and that is not good on my ears. Point in case : Sticky Fingers live 2105 for example.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-15 19:16 by barbabang.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-15 19:16 by barbabang.
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 15, 2019 19:59
Quote
ashQuote
whitem8
Abkco can released unreleased material they have done so with rock ‘n’ roll Circus. Both of beggars banquet and let it bleed releases are cash grabs. They suck! And as somebody stated above letters won’t help just don’t buy them . When they sell like shit they might figure it out.
No they can't as far as I understand the current situation.
Rock n Roll Circus formed part of the original 1975 ABKCO / Stones settlement as per my post in a different thread. Mick and Keith got a million $ in respect of royalties owed, in exchange ABKCO got permission for 4 albums to include 1 LP of previously unreleased material and the Circus as a second.
Not sure what Bill, Charlie and Brian's estate got out of that - presumably the shaft.
The Stones gave ABKCO the Bill-compiled Black Box as the LP of unreleased tracks. ABKCO didn't like it and compiled and released Metamorphosis instead.
ABKCO got permission to release Rock n Roll Circus specifically from this settlement. I imagine in some respects, while Mick wasn't happy about that, he probably thought getting permission from the other artists would be enough of a pain in the bum that it would at least cause ABKCO stress and of course, it didn't actually get released for years. Permissions involved would be needed from Lennon and The Who, both of whom had reason to be very pissed at Klein/ABKCO.
When it did get it's anniversary release, the bonus was a Beatles song (Revolution). Speaking as a Beatles fan, that would be hilarious under any other circumstances (apologies) but this whole situation is appalling for music lovers and in particular Stones fans of which I am also very definitely one.
The other 2 albums as part of the 4 LP deal were an Oldham compiled retrospective (Rolled Gold) and a TV advertised greatest hits (Get Stoned).
That's the 4 LP's ABKCO were granted.
ABKCO are not allowed to tinker with the original LPs or release any "new" items from the "Decca-era" catalogue without the co-operation/say-so of Mick and co.
The BBC stuff was presumably covered by a separate situation, ditto Charlie Is My Darling / Yah Yah's but all 3 are basically live albums and not Decca catalogue as such.
Much as I don't want to defend ABKCO, this whole "anniversary" mess without bonus tracks is not their call although that doesn't excuse the lack of decent sleeve notes and packaging every time the catalogue has been re-issued over the decades and the high cost of a mono fold down Let It Bleed which is totally outrageous. (and no cake figurines either).
BBC and Charlie Is My Darling were not owned by ABKCO. Ya Yas was, however, so I think they had to make an agreement with The Stones for releasing that one. Remember the trouble The Stones experienced when they wanted to release a 1973 live album. It goes both ways.
You're not paying for a LIB-fold-down, btw. You're paying for an upgrade in sound, judging by the TSMR and BB-releases.
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: September 15, 2019 20:21
From what I have read the Let It Bleed is only available in fold down there is no true mono of that album.
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 15, 2019 20:51
Quote
whitem8
From what I have read the Let It Bleed is only available in fold down there is no true mono of that album.
I haven't seen that confirmed. Was LIB a fold-down on the mono-box as well?
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: September 15, 2019 21:54
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
whitem8
From what I have read the Let It Bleed is only available in fold down there is no true mono of that album.
I haven't seen that confirmed. Was LIB a fold-down on the mono-box as well?
Yes. Let It Bleed has only been mixed to stereo and the mono is a fold.
So is all of Beggars (IIRC) except Sympathy For The Devil which was a dedicated mono mix.
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 15, 2019 22:02
Quote
ashQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
whitem8
From what I have read the Let It Bleed is only available in fold down there is no true mono of that album.
I haven't seen that confirmed. Was LIB a fold-down on the mono-box as well?
Yes. Let It Bleed has only been mixed to stereo and the mono is a fold.
So is all of Beggars (IIRC) except Sympathy For The Devil which was a dedicated mono mix.
Thanks. What about the SF mono-mix that circulated a few years ago?
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: September 15, 2019 22:21
Dear ABKCO
Your 2002 remasters by Bob Ludwig will never be worth improving since they probably can't be. You got me once again with buying the albums (although I'm far from getting them all yet) because of the superior sound quality compared to the lousy 1986 CD issues.
Pretty good job with the GYYYO! reissue with the extras but it still fell short regarding the Stones.
Upon getting all the Ludwig remasters there will never be a reason to get anything ever again, like the ridiculous 50th for BEGGARS. Only unreleased material will do.
Sincerely,
Jack Dyer
Your 2002 remasters by Bob Ludwig will never be worth improving since they probably can't be. You got me once again with buying the albums (although I'm far from getting them all yet) because of the superior sound quality compared to the lousy 1986 CD issues.
Pretty good job with the GYYYO! reissue with the extras but it still fell short regarding the Stones.
Upon getting all the Ludwig remasters there will never be a reason to get anything ever again, like the ridiculous 50th for BEGGARS. Only unreleased material will do.
Sincerely,
Jack Dyer
Re: Open letter to Abkco
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: September 15, 2019 23:27
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
ashQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
whitem8
From what I have read the Let It Bleed is only available in fold down there is no true mono of that album.
I haven't seen that confirmed. Was LIB a fold-down on the mono-box as well?
Yes. Let It Bleed has only been mixed to stereo and the mono is a fold.
So is all of Beggars (IIRC) except Sympathy For The Devil which was a dedicated mono mix.
Thanks. What about the SF mono-mix that circulated a few years ago?
I don't know about the mono Sticky Fingers I'm afraid.
I'd be very surprised if genuine mono mixes were still being done by that point although it's not impossible. Someone else here might know.
Sometimes things disappear if you fold-down and haven't been careful checking your stereo mix by folding it down every once in a while while mixing.
I think that's why Sympathy For The Devil got a real mono mix, because a bunch of stuff vanished / cancelled out when the stereo was folded down ?
I am reliably informed that when Mick and Keith appeared on Top Gear in 1968 (BBC Radio) to promote the Beggars album (not mentioned in the On Air book iirc), Mick and Keith heard the stereo LP played over the mono airwaves and made John Peel play Sympathy again later in the show from the proper mono mix!!
To demonstrate what a dreadful mess the Stones / Decca / ABKCO catalogue has pretty much always been mix-wise, here's some further mono info Lukpac very kindly compiled concerning the Stones In Mono Box at the Hoffman board a while back.
"The Rolling Stones - only available in mono
12 X 5 - half the tracks are only available in mono, the other half are fold-downs of stereo mixes in mono
No. 2 - 7 of the 12 tracks only exist in mono. 4 of the remaining tracks are fold-downs of stereo mixes in mono, while the 5th has unique mono and stereo mixes
Now! - 9 tracks only exist in mono, 2 are fold-downs of stereo mixes in mono, and 1 has unique mono and stereo mixes
OOOH (US) - 9 tracks only exist in mono, 2 have released mono and stereo mixes, and 1 has a released mono mix and an unreleased stereo mix
December's Children - 10 tracks only exist in mono, 1 is a fold-down of a stereo mix in mono, and 1 has released mono and stereo mixes"
Do the math on what was actually significant about those LP's on CD in the Mono box. It's a bit of a shocker, even if the presentation and sound was nice.
None of which I'm complaining about, it was kind of unavoidable for the mono box but it goes to show how poorly the Stones 60s catalogue was / has been / and is treated back in the day and to this day. It's a complete mess of genuine mono, genuine stereo and fold downs.
Where the mono box really scored big for me was - UK Aftermath / UK Buttons and Satanic Maj. in true mono but "The Rolling Stones Remaining Unavailable Catalogue Genuine Mono Mixes" is probably a bit niche as a marketing strategy.
In comparison to the mop heads, Kinks, Dylan, well, everyone else who released a mono box, there was a superlative bunch of hype attached to a large part of the Stones mono box because in so many cases, either the genuine mono had always been the only available mix of any kind, mono or stereo, or the mono was always actually a fold down.
This compares very unfavourably to the Beatles In Mono which is essential and has the added bonus of not including Maxwell's Silver Hammer or Long and Winding Road, a bonus if ever I heard one, better than any bonus ABKCO has ever offered !!!!
In The Beatles mono box, I don't think there was a single fold down and the 4 Yellow Submarine tracks, which had previously only been released in mono as fold-downs, were issued in their previously unissued vintage true mono mixes which had been prepared for a potential EP in 68 / 69.
It is fair to say that the Stones Decca catalogue is always going to be an absolute mess....even with bonus tracks !
So going back to Let It Bleed, £145 for a potentially slight upgrade (eq / compression tweak of the master that I may not be able to significantly hear on my equipment) of the stereo mix that I already have at least 3 different vinyl / cd copies of and a mono fold down (which I have on vinyl and digital) is quite steep. And no cake figurines !!
and you have to wonder why, if this new issue is going to be a big upgrade, what were they playing at the other times they issued this on cd.
Sorry I sound grumpy about this ! It's very frustrating though.
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