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24FPS

Yeah, like anyone is itching for bonus tracks after 1990.

I'd like to hear the B2B outtakes myself. That's a bunch of tracks that are circulating among a coterie of high-level fans...

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Redhotcarpet
Release the sponge job tapes of Ry Cooder!

They have been released.

in contrast to Bob Dylan's vaults the Stones vaults seem to be rather empty. I can't see any way the might be able release something that comes close to the maestro's endless bootleg series releases

Bootleg series, deluxe albums get less and less relevant due to declining sales figures.

Should Mick use endless time on someting that sells so little!!

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mtaylor
Bootleg series, deluxe albums get less and less relevant due to declining sales figures.

Should Mick use endless time on someting that sells so little!!

it's quite the other way round: due to declining sales figures in music deluxe editions get more important since there are (still) people who are able and willing to spend much more money to get a little extra (songs, alternate take, demos, artwork etc.)
You can sell a double CD for say 15 Euros, but the same double CD plus some extra CD (or DVD), a poster, some cheap gimmicks and a bigger box for 100+ Euros. That's a great deal, isn't it (at least for the music industry)?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-08 14:16 by slewan.

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slewan
in contrast to Bob Dylan's vaults the Stones vaults seem to be rather empty. I can't see any way the might be able release something that comes close to the maestro's endless bootleg series releases

Yeah, ths is my impression too. Bob could release several CDs with unreleased songs without having to spend a year in the studio doing overdubs to make them presentable (not to speak of all the live stuff). Ian Anderson could release a double CD of unreleased songs already back in 1993 (Nightcap), and Neil Young appears to have a ton of unreleased albums in his vault anyway. It doesn't really seem that some such state of affairs holds regarding the Stones.

What they certainly do have is an archive of concert recordings at least from the 1990s onwards. However, whether much novelty material is to be found there is another question. Also, there should be enough material for a compilation of session outtakes to accompany some anniversary edition.

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slewan
in contrast to Bob Dylan's vaults the Stones vaults seem to be rather empty. I can't see any way the might be able release something that comes close to the maestro's endless bootleg series releases

Remember that Bob doesn't care at all about these releases while "eagle eye" Jagger closely monitors (censors?) what we can get.

Translation : Bob's crew can put out whatever they want, there's no veto from the man at the top. If an independant person curated those Stones archival releases I'm sure we'd get 10x more new stuff.

Jagger only uses these archival releases to give the band and its present activities the media boost it requires. Jagger doesn't care at all about giving serious fans a comprehensive look into the band's past.
He doesn't care about the band's past hi only obsession is to keep the band relevant, in tune with today's trends.

Imho Jagger's #1 concern is to finish the new album which would give the band's at least 3 years of new life. An extended GHs or TY? C'mon...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-08 15:02 by dcba.

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slewan

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mtaylor
Bootleg series, deluxe albums get less and less relevant due to declining sales figures.

Should Mick use endless time on someting that sells so little!!

it's quite the other way round: due to declining sales figures in music deluxe editions get more important since there are (still) people who are able and willing to spend much more money to get a little extra (songs, alternate take, demos, artwork etc.)
You can sell a double CD for say 15 Euros, but the same double CD plus some extra CD (or DVD), a poster, some cheap gimmicks and a bigger box for 100+ Euros. That's a great deal, isn't it (at least for the music industry)?

To Mick Jagger it is much better economically going on tour than producing additional de-luxe versions. What are the sales-figures for a box-set / de-luxe version of Tattoo You, for example? Do you know?

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mtaylor

To Mick Jagger it is much better economically going on tour than producing additional de-luxe versions.

I don't think he does it for the money. He wants the band to remain a solid living musical entity. The fate of the Who or some other "zombie band" from the 60's is the thing he wants to avoid most.

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mtaylor

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slewan

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mtaylor
Bootleg series, deluxe albums get less and less relevant due to declining sales figures.

Should Mick use endless time on someting that sells so little!!

it's quite the other way round: due to declining sales figures in music deluxe editions get more important since there are (still) people who are able and willing to spend much more money to get a little extra (songs, alternate take, demos, artwork etc.)
You can sell a double CD for say 15 Euros, but the same double CD plus some extra CD (or DVD), a poster, some cheap gimmicks and a bigger box for 100+ Euros. That's a great deal, isn't it (at least for the music industry)?

To Mick Jagger it is much better economically going on tour than producing additional de-luxe versions. What are the sales-figures for a box-set / de-luxe version of Tattoo You, for example? Do you know?

Since one doesn't exist you'll have to look at the EMOS, SG and SF deluxe reissues.

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dcba

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mtaylor

To Mick Jagger it is much better economically going on tour than producing additional de-luxe versions.

I don't think he does it for the money. He wants the band to remain a solid living musical entity. The fate of the Who or some other "zombie band" from the 60's is the thing he wants to avoid most.

From 1982 to 2005, possibly, but at this stage in the game I doubt that the average concert goer sees any difference between the Stones and the Who. Just (re)checking the box to see legends before it's too late...Maybe The Stones have a larger base of crazy fans but we're completely irrelevant to the demographics these bands cater to to pack stadiums.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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DandelionPowderman

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24FPS
The bonus cuts from Some Girls, Exile, and alternate Sticky Fingers, were the best released Stones cuts for years. Is the vault empty? Or were they only done because the Stones were dormant, and Mick wanted to keep the band's legacy alive? We got nothing from ABKCO. Their Beggar's Banquet release was a joke. People have whispered that an expanded Let it Bleed was coming, but nothing happened.

Ya Yas Deluxe also deserves a mention.

There were talks about a Tattoo You Deluxe, according to David Fricke in Rolling Stone Magazine, but nothing happened.

This could be a killer box set if the Glimmers go back to the mid seventies and include tracks from Munich sessions , stuff that was the origins for instance for Start Me Up , and Tops and Waiting On A Friend . That would be most interesting to me if they opened up the vaults when these tracks were in there infancy from when Mick Taylor was in the Stones .

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TheGreek

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DandelionPowderman

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24FPS
The bonus cuts from Some Girls, Exile, and alternate Sticky Fingers, were the best released Stones cuts for years. Is the vault empty? Or were they only done because the Stones were dormant, and Mick wanted to keep the band's legacy alive? We got nothing from ABKCO. Their Beggar's Banquet release was a joke. People have whispered that an expanded Let it Bleed was coming, but nothing happened.

Ya Yas Deluxe also deserves a mention.

There were talks about a Tattoo You Deluxe, according to David Fricke in Rolling Stone Magazine, but nothing happened.

This could be a killer box set if the Glimmers go back to the mid seventies and include tracks from Munich sessions , stuff that was the origins for instance for Start Me Up , and Tops and Waiting On A Friend . That would be most interesting to me if they opened up the vaults when these tracks were in there infancy from when Mick Taylor was in the Stones .

agreed

I wonder if Mick realized brushing up old Stones Tracks from the Golden Era reflected poorly on the current Stones? Also his current DVD vault releases are from the post Wyman-Era. It would be kind of embarrassing to bring out a new album and have it compared negatively against almost 50-year-old rhythm tracks he added new vocals to.

Most of the posts here have been about whether there are unreleased tracks left ion the vaults but no one seems to know much about the various session takes and different versions.

The Beatles and The Beach Boys recent vaults releases are perfect examples of what can be found by trawling the archives but unfortunately Mick is not too interested in releasing old material and ABKCO also seem to have no interest.

Some of the most thrilling unreleased and hitherto unknown material came with the Sticky Fingers Deluxe box where fantastic new versions of Bitch, Dead Flowers and Can't You Hear Me Knocking were found.

Does anybody know whose job it was to work on that release. I know there was more that could have been added including a weird version of Wild Horses with strings which I heard.

well, we must keep in mind that (at least in the second half of their career) The Beatles spent much more time in the studio than the Stones. And – in contrast to Bob Dylan – The Beatles as well as the Stones don't (or didn't) have too many complete but unreleased songs in their vaults. And third – The Beatles stopped recording in 1970 while the Stones haven't been very prolific in the past two decades (once again in contrast to His Bobness)

Release “Criss Cross” as a worldwide single. Although Jagger would probably want something with his new vocal.

There probably could be a Goats Head bonus. It would be amazing to have Jagger sing on the stunning “Separately” instrumental with Nicky Hopkins’ piano.

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TravelinMan
Release “Criss Cross” as a worldwide single. Although Jagger would probably want something with his new vocal.

There probably could be a Goats Head bonus. It would be amazing to have Jagger sing on the stunning “Separately” instrumental with Nicky Hopkins’ piano.

IMO, Criss-Cross Mind quickly runs out of steam and becomes rather boring.

Adding vocals on Separately, however, is a brilliant idea!

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan
Release “Criss Cross” as a worldwide single. Although Jagger would probably want something with his new vocal.

There probably could be a Goats Head bonus. It would be amazing to have Jagger sing on the stunning “Separately” instrumental with Nicky Hopkins’ piano.

IMO, Criss-Cross Mind quickly runs out of steam and becomes rather boring.

Adding vocals on Separately, however, is a brilliant idea!

Totally agree with you concerning Criss-Cross Mind. It starts out strong, but something's lacking that maintains the listener's interest. It soon meanders along aimlessly and, as you said, becomes rather boring. A surprising instrumental bridge like in Everything's Turning To Gold or Shattered could have lifted the track tremendously.

Separately, however, is such a hauntingly beautiful instrumental that I have a hard time imagining a vocal melody that would fit or not destroy it (what imo actually happened with Aladin Story/So Divine where I still prefer the instrumental). Therefore, getting the instrumental Separately in perfect quality is still one of my wet dreams...

Mick Taylor added some and performed it.

[www.youtube.com]

Mick Taylor - Separately

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Silver Dagger
Most of the posts here have been about whether there are unreleased tracks left ion the vaults but no one seems to know much about the various session takes and different versions.

The Beatles and The Beach Boys recent vaults releases are perfect examples of what can be found by trawling the archives but unfortunately Mick is not too interested in releasing old material and ABKCO also seem to have no interest.

Some of the most thrilling unreleased and hitherto unknown material came with the Sticky Fingers Deluxe box where fantastic new versions of Bitch, Dead Flowers and Can't You Hear Me Knocking were found.

Does anybody know whose job it was to work on that release. I know there was more that could have been added including a weird version of Wild Horses with strings which I heard.

I don't know who was involved but I felt that Sticky should have been better as a deluxe. Wasn't really much new musically or information wise.
Myself, I'm only really interested in 1963 to 72 for the most part and that period is tied in with the ABKCO / Stones dispute - this also applies to some tracks begun in 68 / 69 / 70 but used on Sticky and Exile.
I'm not sure ABKCO isn't interested but at a guess, they know the Stones (maybe Mick mostly?) will be difficult and ABKCO probably don't feel it worthwhile to spend time and money prepping something that will be vetoed. While they have the tapes and their own engineers and studio so costs are theoretically "internal", the second Mick / lawyers / management threaten to enter the picture the costs probably start to spiral. In spite of the shenanigans at EMI in recent years and (Cr)Apple policy, the lovable mop heads seem to have it all sorted out now for the foreseeable future. The Beatles are maintaining their profile with recent deluxe sets. I don't feel the Stones are and while comparing the two is futile in so many ways, there is a very good machine at work for the mop heads which is reminding the general public of their importance, qualities and great music and why they are important to history. The marketing is also very good, like it or not.
The Stones could have (and deserve) that kind of treatment but it's an epic fail all round, not least because of the Stones / ABKCO situation which was outlined -

According to Rolling Stone in 1975, the settlement reached with the Stones gave him (Klein) the right to issue four albums - one of totally unreleased material, Rock ’n’ Roll Circus, a double package Greatest Hits and a double anthology album compiled by Andrew Oldham. I'm not sure anything has changed.
The following is from Rolling Stone June 5 1975.

“Klein claimed that ABKCO, the publishers of many Stones compositions, has always owned the rights to the material, including the unreleased songs. But Mick Jagger, speaking for the Stones, dismissed Klein’s assertion as misleading. “We settled out of court,” he countered. “No one loses in a settlement. We got a lot of money [$1,000,000] that he owed us. The deal was, if he gave us the money, we would give him an album.”
Stones spokeswoman Jane Rose charged that a settlement had occurred over three suits filed since 1972. She claimed that the three actions had “ratified the past in return for freeing up the future,” prevented the release of material that Jagger felt was “rubbish” and won the band the million dollars.
“It was for songwriting royalties that he owed Keith and me from 1965 onward,” Jagger said about the cash settlement. He explained that the Stones had offered the original songs in exchange for the royalty money when it appeared that they could be tied up in court for years. “I wasn’t particularly happy about having to put it together,” Jagger said bitterly, “but you have to live with that. The record is a lot of unreleased tracks which I wouldn’t have ever put out, but it was just a very easy way to get out of this continuing legal suit. I just wanted to get rid of him. He’s just living off us and what we did five, ten years ago, you know? It’s pretty pathetic.”
The “original material” album was delivered by the Stones to Klein on April 1st but will probably not be released as is. “He [Klein] don’t like it,” Jagger said, adding that the Stones feel the same way. “He wants to talk about it with us. It’ll probably be another compromise.”
Rock and Roll Circus, the other single album, is a film soundtrack the Stones did for British TV. One of their last projects before the death of Brian Jones, it includes material by Eric Clapton, the Who, John Lennon, Yoko Ono and Jethro Tull, Jagger warned that the “four or five tracks of the Rolling Stones” were “already released versions” and Jane Rose said that Klein would have to secure permission from some of the other major artists scheduled to appear on the record.
“I didn’t particularly want it out,” Jagger said about Circus. “I don’t particularly like it. But see, he [Klein] and London and Decca have the rights to repackage all our old material between 1963 and 1969.”
As for the double albums, Klein said that the greatest hits package would be sold only on TV, and that it would include “28 singles — all the big ones.” The Oldham anthology, Klein said, would include some lesser-known songs along with their big hits. “I’m going to make it responsible to history,” he mused. Jagger felt differently: “He’s able to do very little, really.”

As I said, I'm not sure how much things have changed since then.
From that, we (think we) know that Klein turned down Bill's Black Box which morphed into Necrophilia (?) and then released Metamorphosis. I’d imagine Rolled Gold and Get Stoned were the other two mentioned plus Circus.
Granted this was 44 years ago, but I suspect this is broadly where we are still at save for the great 65 live/Charlie Is My Darling set and the crap BBC project.

I approached ABKCO last year with the suggestion of a Decca era Stones Recording Sessions book similar to Mark Lewisohn’s Beatles version. I hasten to add I wasn't suggesting I do it, merely that it would be a very interesting book for Stones fans and worthy of their consideration as a project bit it's not something ABKCO are interested in I was told.
We are therefore unlikely to find out just what survives from the 60’s and what was recorded (and when) in the first place. ABKCO have fully demonstrated their interest in decent sleeve notes and recording history as far as Stones re-issues go. Zero.
While the whole Olympic Tape Library calamity (chucked in a skip) is traumatic, ABKCO did have a multi track tape from RCA which they played in a mono box promo video (was it for Mercy Mercy?) so they may have (many) more tapes than we realise. I suspect the ABKCO tape lists supplied to Mobile Fidelity were nothing like the complete ABKCO tape holdings, merely items needed for Mobile Fidelity's series with a few extras lobbed in. Who knows if they have all the Decca era tapes that survive - maybe Universal have some too, maybe even the band themselves made off with some ??
I have no idea if ABKCO have tapes of the various song demo acetates pictured in James Karnbach's book.
ABKCO seem fairly clueless about what they do and don't own as their on-line copyright preservation releases contained material clearly owned by other entities such as Europe 1 and whoever owns the Ed Sullivan shows etc...

As far as unreleased ABKCO era compositions, I asked the Library Of Congress if I could see the material / lead sheets copyrighted and logged with them in respect of -

September 17th 1973 -
She’s Doin’ Her Thing EU433352 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc
Curtis Meets Smokey EU433354 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc
Jimmy Miller Show EU433358 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc
Blow Me Mama EU433359 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc
I Can’t Leave You EU433360 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc

14 May 1975
Godzi EU583882 composer Nanker-Phelge ABKCO Music Inc
Panama Powder Room EU583883 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc
Gold Painted Nails EU583884 composer Mick Jagger & Keith Richard ABKCO Music Inc

6 December 1972
Aftermath EU373984 composer Nanker-Phelge ABKCO Music Inc

11 sept 1968 Incidental Music From A Degree of Murder by Brian Jones 29p. London Leeds Music EF33064


The Library got everything ready for me within days but asked that I secure permission from the copyright holder. Naturally, ABKCO refused even though it was just some pieces of paper rather than tapes.
My main goal was to see if there were any musical notes / lead sheets that matched tracks we know from bootlegs or whether these were simply working titles for known songs. I don’t have all my notes handy but some of the copyrights were music only rather than for songs with lyrics which indicates the band didn’t record vocals for some of the tracks and that ABKCO were just copyrighting some "stray" items from their tape library, probably in relation to the various lawsuits mentioned in the Rolling Stone article I quoted.
It would be nice if ABKCO could appoint a competent, curious, conscientious individual to fully document the groups recording history including concert tapes etc.. unfortunately whoever did the research for the BBC set didn't even consult the BBC programme logs so the project was doomed before they used inferior tapes and mislabelled others. I know of at least one well regarded individual who told Universal where better quality tapes were and they / ABKCO chose not to listen.

As someone primarily interested in the 60s Stones and the period up to Exile, I can’t imagine we are going to get to hear anything like what Dylan, Beatles, Kinks, Who, Beach Boys etc. have done with their archival projects.
Whether ABKCO want to is one question, would they @#$%& it up like the BBC set is another, but clearly, without the band’s co-operation, I can’t see anything positive happening on this front. The Beggars deluxe killed that dream. Well, the price was deluxe but the content certainly wasn't. Would a photo of a session tape box really hurt that much ?

Theoretically, a model based on the Beatles Anthology series would be a good way to go - extracts from the Little Boy Blue tape, the Crawdaddy club show reel to reel, the Radio Luxembourg acetate in full (that remains my Stones “Holy Grail”), studio outtakes, song demos (even Shang a do lang etc.) or properly curated versions of the albums with a full content bonus cd or two, session details, tape box pictures etc...
We are rapidly approaching the 60th Anniversary of the band's formation.
I can see some brilliant Beatle sets on the horizon once Crappy Road and Let It Rot are out of the way and hope I'm still around for what promises to be the peak - 60th Anniversary Revolver.
Will Revolver Deluxe occur shortly after a 3 or 4 cd Could You Walk On The Water / Aftermath deluxe mono / stereo / outtakes set ? Well it should but probably won't.
Unfortunately, all I see is doom and gloom on this front. Perhaps old stones and archeology isn't the combination it used to be. Every other major artist in pop, rock, jazz etc.. has been getting "proper" reissue treatment as far as I can tell. In terms of post 1950 popular music (pop, jazz, rhythm and blues, rock and roll etc) a fully restored, revisited and curated Rolling Stones catalogue is probably the single biggest glaring omission in archival project terms. I like The Monkees (you can kick my ass later) but there's no way their back catalogue should have been given better treatment than The Rolling Stones but it has, and more than once !

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nick
Mick Taylor added some and performed it.

Straying a little off-topic here.

I often see Seperately listed as a Richards/Taylor composition although it could be mainly Taylor's inspiration. Mick performs a beautifully haunting version of the song. It certainly ranks among the best of his solo work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-11 01:28 by MrTurner.

its such a wasted opportunity for the band not to release a lot of outtakes, tattoo you was born this way, so in theory they could have many similar to that or the deluxe versions of some girls or exile.

they have around 200 outtakes, according to some sources, some are duplications of different songs just with a different name but even if they were to release a fraction of these and brand it as a new album it would add to the stones official repertoire by a huge amount.

its also a pity abcko and the stones dont work together to release the best outtakes from the 60,s, they have many, and also many great tunes as instrumentals.

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dcba

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24FPS

Yeah, like anyone is itching for bonus tracks after 1990.

I'd like to hear the B2B outtakes myself. That's a bunch of tracks that are circulating among a coterie of high-level fans...

yea--I also would love to hear that stuff...plus the Bigger Bang outtakes as well....some day I'm sure....

Ash, I must say that was the best post I've read on iorr (or anywhere, for that matter) in years. Cheers to you.

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ash
Perhaps old stones and archeology isn't the combination it used to be.

Ba-dum! Tss.

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Rocky Dijon
Ash, I must say that was the best post I've read on iorr (or anywhere, for that matter) in years. Cheers to you.

Yes it the best since thkbeercan laid those MFSL inventory sheets on us and the conversation that took place in that thread.

Ash, that was awesome!

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ash


11 sept 1968 Incidental Music From A Degree of Murder by Brian Jones 29p. London Leeds Music EF33064

Interesting! Can you tell me more about this file/info?

ABKCO have copyright on this?

Thanks, Ash. That was impressive and heartfelt.

Alex.