To be fair; Ronnie is the only one who hasn't dropped much in quality. He's still the young one. Only 72. He has to compensate for Keith more - that is the difference.
I don't think he's any better as a guitarist though. He seems to be sober also. Which I guess is necessary now.

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keithsman
I've always got the impression Ronnie has been the most replaceable core member of the band, with all due respect and i don't want this to sound like i would prefer another player to Ronnie at this stage, but someone like Waddy Wachtel could replace Ronnie after a weeks rehearsal with the Stones and do a very good job alongside Keith as we have seen with the Winos.

musically speaking there a bus loads of guitarists who could outperform Ronnie but since he has become one of the core members replacing him would mean the end of the Stones

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slewan

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keithsman
I've always got the impression Ronnie has been the most replaceable core member of the band, with all due respect and i don't want this to sound like i would prefer another player to Ronnie at this stage, but someone like Waddy Wachtel could replace Ronnie after a weeks rehearsal with the Stones and do a very good job alongside Keith as we have seen with the Winos.

musically speaking there a bus loads of guitarists who could outperform Ronnie but since he has become one of the core members replacing him would mean the end of the Stones

All of the Stones can be "outperformed" (whatever that means), but it won't sound like The Stones. There is a reason why we love this band...

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DandelionPowderman

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slewan

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keithsman
I've always got the impression Ronnie has been the most replaceable core member of the band, with all due respect and i don't want this to sound like i would prefer another player to Ronnie at this stage, but someone like Waddy Wachtel could replace Ronnie after a weeks rehearsal with the Stones and do a very good job alongside Keith as we have seen with the Winos.

musically speaking there a bus loads of guitarists who could outperform Ronnie but since he has become one of the core members replacing him would mean the end of the Stones

All of the Stones can be "outperformed" (whatever that means), but it won't sound like The Stones. There is a reason why we love this band...

Now it's too late to replace any member of the band. But the one carrying the Stones gene musically is Keith. Ron's strength was to easily adapt to that. Keith is the Stones DNA. Ron isn't.
Ron could have been replaced earlier. Say in the eighties. But not now. No one is replaceable now. Except Darryl.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Nikkei
To me, Charlie is the most valuable player and always has been. He's the one to dance to. Without the context he provides, what the others do becomes ridiculous

The Stones always have been ridiculous. That's both their weakness and strength.

Weakness ????????
They were, right from the start, and still are today, the most reliable power boosters in rock 'n' roll. All others follow them at great distance or have dropped of the stage ages ago.

All this contention for the title of MOST valuable player is overshadowing the undoubted fact that Ronnie is now a much more valuable player than he was a few years ago. Sober, he really shines these days.

A myth is that Ronnie helps Keith with his guitar parts, Ronnie doesn't play a single note of Keiths throughout the tour, what Ronnie does do now is play the right amounts of Ronnie parts.
He's interlocking and weaving with Keith, this is what Keith has always wanted from Ronnie, it's nothing new, Ronnie is exactly where he should be on songs like GS and BS etc, if you go back to the mid to late 70's that's how Ronnie played with the Stones, it's taken 30 year's for him to get back to what he is supposed to do, that's why they picked him.

Ronnie has been awesome this tour. Having fun with the audience, dancing and fooling around while laying down just terrific sounds and solos. I was flying at the end of his YCAGWYW solos in both Chicago shows. He just smiled to the audience when his turn was done, like it was another day in the office. I was in awe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-11 22:58 by 2120Joe.

Ronnie does sometimes play Keith's parts. In one of the Monkey Man versions from this tour he played the descending intro notes behind Keith and I remember him doubling Keith's parts during the Brown Sugar intro in 2017 and those are just two examples.
That Matt or Chuck are playing guitar parts with their Keyboards is a hoax though, in my opinion (other than supplementary sounds like the acoustic on Satisfaction).

The way I see it, Ronnie provides very obvious visual cues for Keith when there's a bridge coming up and such. Sometimes he gets a look back like "you think I'm an idiot?"

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keithsman
A myth is that Ronnie helps Keith with his guitar parts, Ronnie doesn't play a single note of Keiths throughout the tour, what Ronnie does do now is play the right amounts of Ronnie parts.
He's interlocking and weaving with Keith, this is what Keith has always wanted from Ronnie, it's nothing new, Ronnie is exactly where he should be on songs like GS and BS etc, if you go back to the mid to late 70's that's how Ronnie played with the Stones, it's taken 30 year's for him to get back to what he is supposed to do, that's why they picked him.

That's EXACTLY my point.

As happy as we are to see Ronnie playing "well", he's not doing anything mind-blowing. He's simply holding up his end of the bargain. While it's a pleasant surprise compared to how he's been in the past, it's not exactly something to overly praise.

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MonkeyMan2000
Ronnie does sometimes play Keith's parts. In one of the Monkey Man versions from this tour he played the descending intro notes behind Keith and I remember him doubling Keith's parts during the Brown Sugar intro in 2017 and those are just two examples.
That Matt or Chuck are playing guitar parts with their Keyboards is a hoax though, in my opinion (other than supplementary sounds like the acoustic on Satisfaction).

I'll agree to disagree, he doesn't play any of Keiths parts instead of Keith.
Most of what Keith plays is the structure to the Stones sound, OK Keith can be ON or off but keith is still playing his own solo's, those distinctive intros, riffs and rhythms, Ronnie plays all the Ronnie solo's like on YCAGWYW and of course he meshes and weaves beautifully with Keith on this tour, but i don't hear him play Keith's guitar parts because Keith is struggling, i think keith would lamp him with his fender if that happened as old as he is lol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-11 23:48 by keithsman.

Not trying to be a jerk, but listen to Monkey Man from Chicago 2. Where he once played ghostly slide licks during the intro he is now taking over the right rhythm for that descending line. Brown Sugar in Spielberg is another example where he plays Keith's notes to get him back on track. Nothing earth shattering and I'm not trying to take away anything from Keith, he is usually fine once he's on track. But it's nice to see they can rely on each other and Ronnie has shown to be a good guide these last few tours.

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MonkeyMan2000
Not trying to be a jerk, but listen to Monkey Man from Chicago 2. Where he once played ghostly slide licks during the intro he is now taking over the right rhythm for that descending line. Brown Sugar in Spielberg is another example where he plays Keith's notes to get him back on track. Nothing earth shattering and I'm not trying to take away anything from Keith, he is usually fine once he's on track. But it's nice to see they can rely on each other and Ronnie has shown to be a good guide these last few tours.

No true Keith still plays the descending notes on the intro and what do you mean he plays Keith’s notes on BS?

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georgie48

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TheflyingDutchman

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Nikkei
To me, Charlie is the most valuable player and always has been. He's the one to dance to. Without the context he provides, what the others do becomes ridiculous

The Stones always have been ridiculous. That's both their weakness and strength.

Weakness ????????
They were, right from the start, and still are today, the most reliable power boosters in rock 'n' roll. All others follow them at great distance or have dropped of the stage ages ago.

Garage band, better?

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MonkeyMan2000
Not trying to be a jerk, but listen to Monkey Man from Chicago 2. Where he once played ghostly slide licks during the intro he is now taking over the right rhythm for that descending line. Brown Sugar in Spielberg is another example where he plays Keith's notes to get him back on track. Nothing earth shattering and I'm not trying to take away anything from Keith, he is usually fine once he's on track. But it's nice to see they can rely on each other and Ronnie has shown to be a good guide these last few tours.

Yeah I see what you mean MonkeyMan , Ronnie is still so sharp and aware and he definitely helps Keith stay on track at times, especially in 2017 , not so much need on this tour I'm pleased to say, Keith seems to be holding up OK, definitely Keith's timing is suspect at times though, and maybe Ronnie helps with that..
I think we are talking a little bit at cross purposses, i was just making the point that Keith still plays 99% of his parts, just hear what happens when Keith stops playing to greet the crowd at any show to see the enormity of Keiths job, when Keith stops playing the music almost stops, Keith's guitar parts are huge throughout most songs played, a big responsibility and we all know what happens when Keith messes up, it's far more noticeable than when Ronnie used to mess up.

Edit: this is a response to Cooltoplady
I'm not saying Keith isn't playing it. I'm just saying Ronnie's backing him up to provide some security where he once played a whole different part to Keith's. Watch the videos from Chicago: [youtu.be]

And the same thing happens sometimes on Brown Sugar and Before They Make Me Run for example. Ronnie doubling Keith's notes and chords instead of playing another part different from Keith's. My point is, in my view, it's not entirely true that Ronnie has never played a single note of Keith's, like keithsman mentioned. Again, nothing bad about it and it doesn't bother me at all. Just pointing it out, as it shows Ronnie's role.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-12 00:27 by MonkeyMan2000.

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MonkeyMan2000
That Matt or Chuck are playing guitar parts with their Keyboards is a hoax though, in my opinion (other than supplementary sounds like the acoustic on Satisfaction)

Could have fooled me - at Desert Trip wkd. 2, Chuck clearly played the opening riff to Little T&A on keyboard while Keith sort of acted/posed like he was playing it (he might have struck a single chord or played a couple of notes). Had never seen that before, and even wrote about it here. Not sure if you would consider that also a "supplementary sound", but considering it's an iconic opening riff to one of Keith's best known tunes, hard to say it was just supplementary imo.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Hairball

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MonkeyMan2000
That Matt or Chuck are playing guitar parts with their Keyboards is a hoax though, in my opinion (other than supplementary sounds like the acoustic on Satisfaction)

Could have fooled me - at Desert Trip wkd. 2, Chuck clearly played the opening riff to Little T&A on keyboard while Keith sort of acted/posed like he was playing it (he might have struck a single chord or played a couple of notes). Had never seen that before, and even wrote about it here. Not sure if you would consider that also a "supplementary sound", but considering it's an iconic opening riff to one of Keith's best known tunes, hard to say it was just supplementary imo.

A strange thing struck me with Keith at the opening at Glastonbury, you can hear Chuck all over Keith's guitar parts at the beginning of JJF, obviously there was no need for Chuck to be covering Keith at that particular show and the sound guys quickly got Keith up higher in the mix, but what surprised me was Chuck being all over Keith's opening on JJF.

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keithsman

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MonkeyMan2000
Not trying to be a jerk, but listen to Monkey Man from Chicago 2. Where he once played ghostly slide licks during the intro he is now taking over the right rhythm for that descending line. Brown Sugar in Spielberg is another example where he plays Keith's notes to get him back on track. Nothing earth shattering and I'm not trying to take away anything from Keith, he is usually fine once he's on track. But it's nice to see they can rely on each other and Ronnie has shown to be a good guide these last few tours.

Yeah I see what you mean MonkeyMan , Ronnie is still so sharp and aware and he definitely helps Keith stay on track at times, especially in 2017 , not so much need on this tour I'm pleased to say, Keith seems to be holding up OK, definitely Keith's timing is suspect at times though, and maybe Ronnie helps with that..
I think we are talking a little bit at cross purposses, i was just making the point that Keith still plays 99% of his parts, just hear what happens when Keith stops playing to greet the crowd at any show to see the enormity of Keiths job, when Keith stops playing the music almost stops, Keith's guitar parts are huge throughout most songs played, a big responsibility and we all know what happens when Keith messes up, it's far more noticeable than when Ronnie used to mess up.

That is true and for me it's what makes the difference between an average and a great show. Keith driving it or not. But in recent years he more and more just hung in it and went along hitting chords here and there, although 2018/2019 has seen way less of that, which is a joy to see.
Sweet Virginia is a prime example. His signature acoustic part (which he would still be able to play, I could swear) makes the song but most of the time he just hits the chords and sings a bit. Which is where most of the time Ronnie jumps in.

Keith messing up is more noticeable, I agree, I mean most songs are built around
THOSE riffs. But I guess Ronnie is trying to blur the hick up by picking up what Keith doesn't play or doesn't play securely enough. Which is where our points meet, I guess

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Hairball

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MonkeyMan2000
That Matt or Chuck are playing guitar parts with their Keyboards is a hoax though, in my opinion (other than supplementary sounds like the acoustic on Satisfaction)

Could have fooled me - at Desert Trip wkd. 2, Chuck clearly played the opening riff to Little T&A on keyboard while Keith sort of acted/posed like he was playing it (he might have struck a single chord or played a couple of notes). Had never seen that before, and even wrote about it here. Not sure if you would consider that also a "supplementary sound", but considering it's an iconic opening riff to one of Keith's best known tunes, hard to say it was just supplementary imo.

I know what you mean, I think in Vegas Chuck did that to. But it's just an overdriven Rhodes sound, easily distinguishable from a guitar. (To make a secure foundation for Keith, I guess) What I meant was the rumor that Chuck and Matt would dial in an electric guitar sound on their Synths to play Keith's and Ronnie's parts.
Obviously they sometimes double guitar parts with keys and organ but never with guitar "sounds" and the doubling is much more noticeable on recordings because in concert the guitars are overpowering the other instruments anyway...

Why is it surprising if Ron plays a similar guitar part as Keith? They're playing the same song at the same time, I dare hope, so he better. Keith's idea, when they got Ron in the band, was to make "two guitars sound as one, again". And the 'ancient art of weaving' entails "not knowing who plays what". Perhaps the fact that you don't hear Ronnie screw up as badly as Keith, lies in the fact that his part usually isn't crucial to the gist of the song. Knowing that the live recordings are in perfect stereo, it is rather revealing to switch the right channel off (Keith) and listen to what Ronnie (left channel) really plays (or, not plays).

That whole Mick Jagger heart surgery thing right before the tour resonate with anybody else?

I’m confused as to why this is even a discussion?

Great for Wood, he got sober, he’s playing his parts. It’s like everybody is surprised he’s carrying his weight.