Damn, this is like re-painting Mona Lisa's smile...

I agree with Dandie that "Stray Cat Blues" would be the only song (with "Street Fighting Man" perhaps) to be replaced by "Flash" in order to not way too much change the flow of the album. But those are way too essential songs. So I would kick out a 'lesser' song to give room for the hit song. But what would that be? I cannot judge that, so I take the criterion to be theirs: not have been played live. "Jig-Saw Puzzle"? But then again that funnily, and a bit artificially constructed Dylanisque tale fits so well to the statement of the album... But if "Dear Doctor" would be replaced the album would sound totally different, much more rocking and less having that acoustic country authenticity.. "No Expectations", "Dear Doctor", "Prodigal Son" and "Factory Girl" are the salt of the earth of the album, giving it a depthness, ambition and character no any other Stones album has.

Forget it. Da Vinci got it right...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-07 13:40 by Doxa.

From the same era - Is "Whole Lotta Yoko" the worst song on any officially released Stones album/CD?

Well you don't have to remove a song just to put JJF in it's place. You can always move it to another place in running order.
HM, I hear more acoustic guitars on JJF than just the one. If they pinged several acoustics and suffered good bit of generation loss it becomes harder to tell what is what.
I don't get why you say that the cassette process doesn't allow for Overdubbing, and that you only get one pass later on.
I have always understood Keith and Jimmy's technique that Keith sits in front of a cassette recorder and plays/records a guitar track. He plays it hard and is overloading the small condenser mic. Then the caSSETTE deck plays it back, while a mic is picking up the small speaker, and sending it through a large speaker, a PA basically. Then that much louder signal from the big speaker is what another mic is recording onto Track 1. It really just an acoustic guitar through an overdrive.

Someone posted a "Let The Beggar Bleed" mix tape listing of the best songs of this era.

Alas, I can't find it.

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treaclefingers
JJF should have been on BB, I understand why it wasn't, and HTW on LIB replacing Country Honk and making Country Honk the b-side to the lead A-side single, Gimme Shelter.

I'd also squeeze Child of the Moon on BB, but if there was a way to travel in time and give the glimmers COTM for release on TSMR, I'd put it on there instead, along with Dandelion and We Love You, removing GOMPER and See What Happens.

Now, you improved 2 of the BIG 4, which almost seems impossible to do, and elevated TSMR to potentially be one of the "BIG 5".

Oh man! So you are dumbing one of their very biggest hits ever (probably top three with "Satisfaction" and "Miss You") and of which even Charlie Watts was sure they have a huge hit single in their hands when they were cutting it? Surely "Gimme Shelter" would have been a hit too, but in terms of pure radio-friendliness and commerciality I think "Honky Tonk" had more potentiality.

Anyway, it is interesting that they didn't release "Gimme Shelter" as a single to promote LET IT BLEED (and it'd been almost six months since "Honky Tonk" was released). I'll take that to be a sign of the times: the relationship between singles and albums was in transformation, and especially the status of an album as an artistic entity of its own was strongly addressed. The idea of a 'leading single" to be cut off from the album (to promote it) was not yet so obvious as it would later (rather soon) to be seen. As the artistic value of an album (especially since the release of SGT. PEPPER) was starting to increase, and people getting used to see albums as a wholesome deals, probably also the radio stations started to play more album cuts, not just singles (cause and effect?). Without any 'leading single' LET IT BLEED turned out to be their biggest selling album at that point. However, after SATANIC MAJESTIES, BEGGARS and BLEED The Stones would not continue on this track, but some acts would make a succesfull career out of it: acts like Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd would sell multi-millions of albums without having hit singles in them. (And around the time, the importance of touring, and all the publicity associated to it, to promote albums started to to a big factor.)

The tranformation from 'singles era' to 'albums era' was an interesting process. As we know, American and British markets were treated rather differently prior SATANIC MAJESTIES. The artistic content of albums was guided by commercial reasons: if Americans wanted to have the big single hits in order to buy the albums, the Brittons would have felt like being cheated if a particular song had been already released. However, in both and every market the most important product at those early days was that of a hit single - with or without those the pop artists live or die. The singles weren't any tasters from the album, but entities of their own to dictate the course of one's career. Even in USA they were not 'cut off from the albums', but instead the albums were constructed around them, or the hits singles added to the albums (there is a point in saying that the hit singles were promoting the albums, but, however, that was not the direction or 'point' of the creative process). The nature of their pre-SATANIC albums, especially in US market, was more that of 'collection' of pieces from different sessions at the time than that of a 'new studio album', to use HMS's funny distinction; probably the UK releases had more artistic cohereness, but not much. If memory serves, the sessions for BETWEEN THE BUTTONS were the first ones organized solely having a new album in mind - before that it had been just random sessions to cut material for any upcoming releases be they whatever (their first album was an exception, and partly AFTERMATH ). If they had had sessions with a certain release as a goal that had been for a new single in mind - especially Keith likes to remember the horror of having a deadline of a new single every few months, which just got worse after "Satisfaction". I think especially "Get Off of My Cloud" and "19th Nervous Breakdown" sound like done purposively for followers of "Satisfaction", a single hit in mind, having just discovered a winning formula.

"Honky Tonk Women" was the last chapter in the story of singles telling their own story; the end of an era, one could say (and their last #1 hit in their homeland, by the way...). It was a statement of its own - to show that the band was in the height of their powers, despite their founding member and a big part of their image having gone (part of that was introducing a new member/band, as was Hyde Park show initially planned as well). Careerwise it was a very important release at the time. As was, for different reasons, "Jumpin' Jack Flash" a year prior.

Since then the singles have been nothing but the most commercial-sounding songs to be cut off from the albums, or 'tasters' if you like. It would be interesting to know how much having a hit single actually affects to the sales of an album. Many times I hear people seeing a strong causality there (especially in America), but I wouldn't be so sure. Surely, the massive success of SOME GIRLS in America is to be explained largely by "Miss You". The same with STICKY FINGERS/"Brown Sugar", GOATS HEAD SOUP/"Angie" and TATTOO YOU/"Start Me Up" I guess. But then again, the Stones haven't had real hits for decades but still their albums have been selling mostly relatively well. For example, their best-selling latter-day album, VOODOO LOUNGE, most likely gained more from the tour by the same name than from the 'success' of its leading single, "Love Is Strong" (which made something like #50 in Billboard). Probably since the 90's (or even the 80's) the function of 'leading singles' has been that of merely pointing out that 'hey, there is new Stones album available now or soon', getting a bit of radio airplay, but mostly videos (once in MTV, now in youtube) being its most important template.

Back to original point. I think that at the end of the 60's The Stones, as many other acts at the time, took the concept of album (and rock music) so seriously (and with an ambition) that they intentionally wanted it to be free of any hit single associations. It is not far-reaching to suggest that the whole idea of a promoting an album by a hit single didn't sound 'cool' at the time. For those 'artsy' times, I can easily imagine that it sounded like a cheap trick of the past, of which the 'serious', matured acts were now reaching out. The singles were singles and the albums were a different animal altogether. The albums told all together a different, artistically more ambitious story than 'poppish', radio-friendly hit songs.

In the history of the Stones, the years of 1968 and 1969 are interesting cases, since both are offering a commercial single for summer market and a more artistically ambitious album for Christmas market. Two clearly distinguished entities. Actually, this trend had already started in 1967 ("We Love You"/SATANIC MAJESTIES) with lesser success. They surely still saw the importance of high-profile hit single, but their career wasn't any longer solely based on having them in a constant row - instead of releasing one every four months or so, now per year was enough to keep them on top (and it took almost two years until "Honky Tonk Women" got a follower!). this is to say that they weren't any longer a singles band, their latest single telling their status in business, and never'll be again.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-07 18:07 by Doxa.

In England, there were two parallel discographies: singles and albums.
They never lifted a single from an album and never re-released a single on a LP.
Being written as one-off, singles can hardly find a proper place in an album that has been composed/recorded a unique piece of art.
That said, I’d love they’d still release some one-off singles nowadays!
Bye, Luca

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Palace Revolution 2000
Well you don't have to remove a song just to put JJF in it's place. You can always move it to another place in running order.
HM, I hear more acoustic guitars on JJF than just the one. If they pinged several acoustics and suffered good bit of generation loss it becomes harder to tell what is what.
I don't get why you say that the cassette process doesn't allow for Overdubbing, and that you only get one pass later on.
I have always understood Keith and Jimmy's technique that Keith sits in front of a cassette recorder and plays/records a guitar track. He plays it hard and is overloading the small condenser mic. Then the caSSETTE deck plays it back, while a mic is picking up the small speaker, and sending it through a large speaker, a PA basically. Then that much louder signal from the big speaker is what another mic is recording onto Track 1. It really just an acoustic guitar through an overdrive.

There is only 1 or 2 if Brian also played along with Keith and Charlie on the cassette take.

They recorded to the cassette. That was then played back and mic'd up and recorded to the 1 channel/track of the 8 track. They were in the control room watching it playback. Serious sync issues occur if you try and repeat that process. Even with regular power the Philips cassette recorder always have a degree of wow and flutter that throws off matching playback of even the same very recording.

Ridiculous for him to go through the above process with it's many sync issues numerous times just to end up with the sound of a Vox or Triumph amp.

Plug in to a Triumph Silicon 100 and it might make more sense.

Most of all though, the cassette recorder process does not produce the bright and gritty sound of the electric guitars heard on JJF. It produces the muffled and driving sound heard thrashing away underneath all of the electrics. Also the issue of upper fret access on a Hummingbird if he tuned to open D and used a capo like he said.

The 1 cassette take is a strong and driving rhythmic device upon which the track was built. Same goes for SFM and PW.

...

It is only in relatively recent times Keith has said JJF was all acoustic, his memories of SFM and JJF probably merging.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-08 13:34 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Palace Revolution 2000
Well you don't have to remove a song just to put JJF in it's place. You can always move it to another place in running order.
HM, I hear more acoustic guitars on JJF than just the one. If they pinged several acoustics and suffered good bit of generation loss it becomes harder to tell what is what.
I don't get why you say that the cassette process doesn't allow for Overdubbing, and that you only get one pass later on.
I have always understood Keith and Jimmy's technique that Keith sits in front of a cassette recorder and plays/records a guitar track. He plays it hard and is overloading the small condenser mic. Then the caSSETTE deck plays it back, while a mic is picking up the small speaker, and sending it through a large speaker, a PA basically. Then that much louder signal from the big speaker is what another mic is recording onto Track 1. It really just an acoustic guitar through an overdrive.

There is only 1. He and Charlie recorded to the cassette. That was then played back and mic'd up and recorded to the 1 channel/track of the 8 track. They were in the control room watching it playback. Serious sync issues occur if you try and repeat that process. Even with regular power the Philips cassette recorder always have a degree of wow and flutter that throws off matching playback of even the same very recording.

Ridiculous for him to go through the above process with it's many sync issues numerous times just to end up with the sound of a Vox or Triumph amp.

Plug in to a Triumph Silicon 100 and it might make more sense.

Most of all though, the cassette recorder process does not produce the bright and gritty sound of the electric guitars heard on JJF. It produces the muffled and driving sound heard thrashing away underneath all of the electrics.

The 1 cassette take is a strong and driving rhythmic device upon which the track was built. Same goes for SFM and PW.

...

It is only in relatively recent times Keith has said JJF was all acoustic, his memories of SFM and JJF probably merging.

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. Yes - of course if you would try to do different cassette takes and sync them it would be a mess. (Although I have to say: in Nashville I have seen engineers do miracles manipulating tape with their bare hands to sync up percussion tracks)
see, I thought you were saying that once the "cassette track" has been recorded on to the 8-track, that it was possible to only overdub anything once. Now I realize that is not what you're saying.
Yes - the thing is a bit silly, esp by today's standards. But Keith heard a sound that was perfect, and I don't think back then it was all that easy to get an acoustic to overload like that.

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Palace Revolution 2000

Yes - the thing is a bit silly, esp by today's standards. But Keith heard a sound that was perfect, and I don't think back then it was all that easy to get an acoustic to overload like that.

It's not silly for him to use it as it produced a sound he liked which was easy to get, you record on to the cassette machine and play it back. There it is.

But, it's not the sound of the 5 or so electric guitars on JJF it's the distorted acoustic sound heard on SFM and more muffled variation heard driving underneath JJF.

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His Majesty

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Palace Revolution 2000

Yes - the thing is a bit silly, esp by today's standards. But Keith heard a sound that was perfect, and I don't think back then it was all that easy to get an acoustic to overload like that.

It's not silly for him to use it as it produced a sound he liked which was easy to get, you record on to the cassette machine and play it back. There it is.

But, it's not the sound of the 5 or so electric guitars on JJF it's the distorted acoustic sound heard on SFM and more muffled variation heard driving underneath JJF.

wait a minute - didn't I just say the same thing, in agreement with you calling it ridiculous?

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Palace Revolution 2000


wait a minute - didn't I just say the same thing, in agreement with you calling it ridiculous?

Phewee.

It came across as it "yes it's silly, but he heard a sound..." as if he did do that process 5 or 6 times.

I never said it was ridiculous for him to use to cassette recorder, merely ridiculous to use the process 5 or 6 times just to end up with the sound of a Vox or Triumph amp which is what is mostly heard on JJF.

As in, as if he'd go through all that trouble of repeating the process 6 times, dealing with syncing etc etc etc just to end up with the sound of a Vox or Triumph amp.

But he didn't, because the cassette recorder doesn't get that that sound. He just used Vox/Triumph amps for the guitars some are thinking are acoustics through the cassette recorder.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-08 14:08 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Palace Revolution 2000


wait a minute - didn't I just say the same thing, in agreement with you calling it ridiculous?

Phewee.

It came across as it "yes it's silly, but he heard a sound..."

I never said it was ridiculous for him to use to cassette recorder, merely ridiculous to use the process 5 or 6 times just to end up with the sound of a Vox or Triumph amp which is what is mostly heard on JJF.

As in, as if he'd go through all that trouble of repeating the process 6 times, dealing with syncing etc etc etc just to end up with the sound of a Vox or Triumph amp.

But he didn't, because the cassette recorder doesn't get that that sound. He just used Vox/Triumph amps for the guitars some are thinking are acoustics through the cassette recorder.

I know...
Sometimes these converses are so lAborous via posts. If we were face to face, we'd already be 10 topics beyond.

Indeed.

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Ross
Dandelion and We Love You certainly would have made a difference on TSMR. Maybe drop Gomper?

Back in my cassette days, I would buy the 100 min cassettes, 50 mins per side, and add the singles (or as many that would fit), such as JJF to Beggars, and Dandi to Satanic.

Now I just have a playlist saved of Singles/B-sides.

There have been years when I've heard SFTD much more than JJF.

Therefor, remove SFTD... and put JJF on.

Give this a shot as a playlist. I've been listening to it, as the first alternative, for quite a while and it works excellently:

Jumpin' Jack Flash
Child Of The Moon
Parachute Woman
Street Fighting Man
Jigsaw Puzzle
Stray Cat Blues
Family
No Expectations
Dear Doctor
Prodigal Son
Factory Girl
Downtown Suzie
Salt Of The Earth
Sympathy For The Devil

Mmm,

Throwing in that stuff from the same sessions that turned up on Metamorphosis is another intriguing twist .

Those songs would also kind of change the album's vibe for me though.

Suzie comes over as a bit too much of a fun novelty ditty... and would compromise the essentially dark brooding balance of the album . [Dear Doctor gets away with it ]

Family is a very interesting song though.

The Metamorphosis version of Downtown Suzie was recorded with Ry Cooder in Feb-April 1969.

When did "Sweet Lucy" become "Suzie", btw, and why?

No idea ... odd .

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Spud
Mmm,

Throwing in that stuff from the same sessions that turned up on Metamorphosis is another intriguing twist .

Those songs would also kind of change the album's vibe for me though.

Suzie comes over as a bit too much of a fun novelty ditty... and would compromise the essentially dark brooding balance of the album . [Dear Doctor gets away with it ]

Family is a very interesting song though.

The beauty of playlists is "could bes". I enjoy other ideas for the sake of something different. Unlike some people, I can listen to a shortened version of EOMS, or a double album version of SF... or expanded BB and LIB and SG and ER and on and on. Because it doesn't ruin the album, it's just different: the album doesn't change, it's always there.

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Spud
No idea ... odd .

Odd indeed...

Got the Monday morning feel
Yep, yep, yeah 
Monday wasn't really real
Yep, yeah 
Oh lying on a naked bed
Yep, yep, yeah 
With an Alka Seltzer head
Yep, yeah 

All right 

Oh Lucy looked sweet just strolling down Newport Street 
Talking about Lu' 
What are you going to do? 
I feel so bad 
Have you ever been had 
Ah by sweet Lucy? 

Took an early morning shower
Yep, yep, yeah 
Well I wasted about half an hour
Yep, yeah 
I heard the ringing of the bel
Yep, yep, yeah 
It's Lucy with the cleaning towel
Yep, yeah

Oh I feeling like the Sunday Times
Yep, yep, yeah 
Soaked in California wine
Yep, yeah 
Oh Lucy kicked me in the hole
Yep, yep, yeah 
A tennis' worth of aching balls 
Oh Lucy

Oh Lucy looked sweet just strolling down the Newport Streets  (you'll have to) 
Talking about Lu' 
What are you going to do? 
And I feel so bad 
Have you ever been had? 
Got a dose from now sweet Lucy

Ah Lucy looked sweet just strolling down Newport Street 
Talking about Lu' - who? 
What are you going to do? 
Oh and I feel so bad 
Have you ever been had? 
Ah by now sweet Lucy

That's a groove, isn't it? 

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GasLightStreet

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Spud
Mmm,

Throwing in that stuff from the same sessions that turned up on Metamorphosis is another intriguing twist .

Those songs would also kind of change the album's vibe for me though.

Suzie comes over as a bit too much of a fun novelty ditty... and would compromise the essentially dark brooding balance of the album . [Dear Doctor gets away with it ]

Family is a very interesting song though.

The beauty of playlists is "could bes". I enjoy other ideas for the sake of something different. Unlike some people, I can listen to a shortened version of EOMS, or a double album version of SF... or expanded BB and LIB and SG and ER and on and on. Because it doesn't ruin the album, it's just different: the album doesn't change, it's always there.

It's probably just me ...

I've always had this this weird perception of albums as living things with a personality .
I don't stream or download very much so I've never really got into playlists that differ from the LP running order !

Even CD "shuffle play" is a great sacrilege



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-09 10:33 by Spud.

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GasLightStreet

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Spud
Mmm,

Throwing in that stuff from the same sessions that turned up on Metamorphosis is another intriguing twist .

Those songs would also kind of change the album's vibe for me though.

Suzie comes over as a bit too much of a fun novelty ditty... and would compromise the essentially dark brooding balance of the album . [Dear Doctor gets away with it ]

Family is a very interesting song though.

The beauty of playlists is "could bes". I enjoy other ideas for the sake of something different. Unlike some people, I can listen to a shortened version of EOMS, or a double album version of SF... or expanded BB and LIB and SG and ER and on and on. Because it doesn't ruin the album, it's just different: the album doesn't change, it's always there.

Exactly!

"No Anchovies, Please"

Andy Johns... acoustic guitars on SFM.

Which lends weight to JJF having acoustic guitars.

[vintageking.com]

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GasLightStreet
Andy Johns... acoustic guitars on SFM.

Which lends weight to JJF having acoustic guitars.

[vintageking.com]

Of course SFM is all acoustic guitars. There is only 1 through the cassette recorder though. The guitar that comes in around 11 seconds is just a normally recorded acoustic.

Same with JJF, 1 acoustic or 2 if Brian played along with Keith through the cassette recorder. but unlike SFM the other guitars are electric.



Btw, the cassette recorder take from SFM was available to listen to at Exhibitionism in London. Very interesting to hear it on it's own.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-15 00:47 by His Majesty.

Street Fighting Man.

Acoustic guitar 1

Process:

acoustic guitar & percussion/trap kit recorded on to the Philips cassette recorder via it's own small microphone.

Cassette recording is played back through extension speaker, a mic is placed infront of the extension speaker with the signal going through the mixing board and on to 1 track of the 4 or 8 track machine.

Click the pic to open the Youtube link


Acoustic guitar 2

Process:

Acoustic guitar recorded via a mic in to the mixing board and on to the 4 or 8 track machine.

Click the pic to open the Youtube link




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-15 00:34 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
Put JJF first and put SFTD in place of SOTE and kick SOTE in to the world of bootlegs.

Boom, strong timeless opener and closer.

Salt of The Earth is a Stone cold Stones classic, One of the greatest songs they've EVER put out. To put it into the world of the bootleg would be a GRAVE INJUSTICE

Rod

His Majesty
Put JJF first and put SFTD in place of SOTE and kick SOTE in to the world of bootlegs.

Heck no Phil ..... Sympathy is a natural born opener ...
It'd lose have its impact stuck on the tail end of Beggars ....



ROCKMAN

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bitusa2012

Salt of The Earth is a Stone cold Stones classic, One of the greatest songs they've EVER put out.

Funny.