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georgie48

I'm sure you read Keith' book "Life". Very enjoyable read, but .... not everything deserved the title "true".

It must be true if Keef said it.

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DandelionPowderman

That being said, Keith says a lot of bullshit.

Keith only talks the truth and remembers correctly at all times.

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His Majesty

Quote
georgie48

I'm sure you read Keith' book "Life". Very enjoyable read, but .... not everything deserved the title "true".

It must be true if Keef said it.

Well, I must rely on you now, but .... I spoke to Mick Avory in person when he was in Utrecht (Netherlands) way back in 2002 (I think it was around that time) when he performed with "the other" Kinks. Keith says (not to me though ) "he was", Mick Avory says "I wasn't". Heeeeelp ...
Maybe it was Ginger Baker

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-07 21:02 by georgie48.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
DandelionPowderman

That being said, Keith says a lot of bullshit.

Keith only talks the truth and remembers correctly at all times.

That's how you interpret that quote?

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Here you're just guessing

Keith could have played the piano, but not on the final take.

This tells me you haven't understood what I typed and why.

Keith DID play piano, but only the upper octave line which comes in later in song. The point is he failed to mention Jack in this instance, so say this were the only time he'd talked about it, someone like jbwelda would come along and take it as fact that it's just Keith playing piano.

If he can forget to mention Jack in relation to a part in 1982 him probably doing same with Brian in 2002 is not exactly surprising or odd or blah blah blah. Add in Keith's up and down personal angst about Brian and, well, yeah.

Re guitar MLH live, Brian playing a Keith lead line live? Nope, just not the done thing.


Why would Keith remember in such a way depends on loads of things, how he was asked being one. But, I showed he doesn't always include people who played parts in his memories of those parts.

...

Most simply, the MLH motif's similarity to Brian's part on GOOMC, Brian playing the part live with slide on 12 string in 1966 and Bill saying slide on Aftermath is Brian is more compelling proof than a one off quote by Keith 'says a lot of bullshit' Richards from 2002.


But, as always any and all Brian credits have to go through this wall of doubt and disbelief and require proof way beyond any other band members. There could literally be film of Brian playing it in studio and some would still refer to Keith's quote as the greater proof.

...

Back to Brian's 1966 Think-In...

Nice quote about Mick and right he was too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-07 21:38 by His Majesty.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

That's how you interpret that quote?

I was being jbwelda.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Here you're just guessing

Keith could have played the piano, but not on the final take.

This tells me you haven't understood what I typed and why.

Keith DID play piano, but only the upper octave line which comes in later in song. The point is he failed to mention Jack in this instance, so say this were the only time he'd talked about it, someone like jbwelda would come along and take it as fact that it's just Keith playing piano.

If he can forget to mention Jack in relation to a part in 1982 him probably doing same with Brian in 2002 is not exactly surprising or odd or blah blah blah. Add in Keith's up and down personal angst about Brian and, well, yeah.

Re guitar MLH live, Brian playing a Keith lead line live? Nope, just not the done thing.


Why would Keith remember in such a way depends on loads of things, how he was asked being one. But, I showed he doesn't always include people who played parts in his memories of those parts.

...

Most simply, the MLH motif's similarity to Brian's part on GOOMC, Brian playing the part live with slide on 12 string in 1966 and Bill saying slide on Aftermath is Brian is more compelling proof than a one off quote by Keith 'says a lot of bullshit' Richards from 2002.


But, as always any and all Brian credits have to go through this wall of doubt and disbelief and require proof way beyond any other band members. There could literally be film of Brian playing it in studio and some would still refer to Keith's quote as the greater proof.

Gotcha, and I would have loved to find proof that it was indeed Brian playing.

However, the clip we have to go by (Honolulu) is thin, musically. It's off key and off frets. So is Bill's recollections (as proven numerous times).

I don't have a strong opinion about who played the riff, though. Could be Brian. Could be Keith.

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DandelionPowderman

Gotcha, and I would have loved to find proof that it was indeed Brian playing.

Similarity to Brian's part on GOOMC. Photos of Brian playing 12 string in RCA Studio in December 1965 when MLH was recorded. A comment from Bill who was there saying Brian played the slide on Aftermath. A recording of Brian playing the part with slide on 12 string live in 1966. A photo from Hollywood Bowl 1966 of Brian playing 12 string with slide on his pinky.

You and many others have accepted loads of other credits based on far less than this. As always it's different with Brian.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

However, the clip we have to go by (Honolulu) is thin, musically. It's off key and off frets.

It's slide, of course it's off frets.

It being rougher is standard stones live music policy. His live recorder playing on Ruby Tuesday in 1967 is off key, you also using that as a counter argument it wasn't him on studio version?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-07 22:30 by His Majesty.

Pictures aren't proof enough for me. We don't know what Brian did with that 12 string. The attack on the studio version of MLH doesn't sound like that of GOOMC to me.

But I could be wrong.

The RT comparison is silly, as there are numerous parts we know Keith played in the studio that he left to the other guitar player to do live.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Pictures aren't proof enough for me. We don't know what Brian did with that 12 string. The attack on the studio version of MLH doesn't sound like that of GOOMC to me.

But I could be wrong.

The RT comparison is silly, as there are numerous parts we know Keith played in the studio that he left to the other guitar player to do live.

It's 2 guitars on MLH one with slide, of course it will sound different to GOOMC. The actual part/phrase itself is similar.

Not silly, you used roughness of live playing as a point of doubt re Brian playing on studio version.

That 'left to other guy' may apply to later, but not for riffs and lead lines in Brian era. By 1966 Keith played busy live, rhythm and lead in abundance except for specific motifs where Brian played his guitar lead/riffs as he had done on studio versions... GOOMC, The Last Time and seemingly... MLH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-07 22:52 by His Majesty.

If I remember well, both Mick and Keith mentioned Brian's beautiful contribution to Ruby Tuesday with the recorder. I (somewhere in my pile of Stones recordings) have a 1967 live recording (Paris, France) where Brian plays absolutely brilliant on recorder! (like if it was his Swan Song). Ruby Tuesday is a Richards/Jones song, even Mick admits that.
And though I am a Rolling Stones fan at heart, Aftermath would not have gotten the status that it has without Brian's unique contributions. I have a studio outtake of f.i. TTLYFH (Satanic) without Brian's "tricks". Nice, but...
By the way, HM, I find Keno's overview (I have them piled in 7 alphabetic maps) very handy, but always triple check with Hoffman's data, Aeppli's data and Karbach/Bernson. Ans still questions remain.


I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Keno's site and crediting is bad. Avoid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-09 15:26 by His Majesty.

Quote
His Majesty
Keno's site snd crediting is bad. Avoid.

What is the meaning of "snd crediting" ?


I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Quote
georgie48

Quote
His Majesty
Keno's site snd crediting is bad. Avoid.

What is the meaning of "snd crediting" ?

Replace the "s" with "a"

The Stones and Brian Jones - Official Trailer | Rolling Stones Documentary | In Theaters November 7

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-16 19:25 by bv.

[bestclassicbands.com]

I'm wondering what Brian would say if he could see his old pals now, 80 years old, still "The Rolling Stones". I think he would laugh his arse off.

Last on

Thu 18 May 2023

BBC TWO

[www.bbc.co.uk]

EXCLUSIVE

Bill Wyman Remembers His Troubled Pal Brian Jones: ‘He Inadvertently Made the Wrong Decisions, to His Detriment’

In an exclusive interview about Nick Broomfield’s new doc The Stones and Brian Jones, the former Stone recalls the band’s founder and most tragic figure

By David Browne
November 4, 2023


Mark and Colleen Hayward/Redferns/Getty

Ask Bill Wyman what people should expect from The Stones and Brian Jones, documentarian Nick Broomfield’s new film about the late, doomed founder of the band, and he’s pretty straightforward about it: “The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but!”

That may be a slight exaggeration, but there’s no denying that the documentary, for which the former Rolling Stones bass player was a “historical consultant,” delves into the highs (laterally and figuratively) and lows of the man who started the Stones but never lived past the Sixties. “He was the heart and soul of the Stones,” Broomfield says in his narration, “but today most people have never heard of him.” At this point, Jones may be most notorious as the first major rock star to die at 27, the launch of a tragic and mysterious club that would come to include Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, and Amy Winehouse.

For those unaware of his contributions, The Stones and Brian Jones (which will play in theaters one night, November 7th, before a wider release on November 17th) gives Jones the props he earned. We’re reminded that he essentially started the band when he was all of 19, was its blues-purist soul in its early days, and added a defining soupcon to some of their most beloved songs, be it the flute on “Ruby Tuesday,” the marimba in “Under My Thumb,” or the sitar in “Paint It Black.” (Wyman’s favorite, he tells RS? The Mellotron Jones played on “2000 Light Years From Home.”)

As far as the overall arc of Jones’ life, Broomfield sticks with the basics. Raised by a disapproving father who made his son feel as if he was throwing his life away by starting a rock band, Jones both rebels against authority and yearns for his parents’ approval. “I don’t want to spoil the movie for anyone by naming specifics,” Wyman tells RS, “but there were a few things that really touched me, including some things about Brian’s childhood that Nick discovered that I didn’t already know.” Those might include the fact that Jones’ father kicked him out of the house when his son was only 17 or that his parents never saw Jones play live, which is profoundly shocking and surely contributed to his self-esteem issues.

A dedicated student of blues and R&B, Jones relates to both Black music and society’s underdogs, and it was his newspaper ad calling for band members that led Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, who’d already jammed with him, to his door. Nominally the leader of the Stones, Jones is soon overtaken by them, Jagger especially, and finds himself adrift — drowning himself in drugs and alcohol before actually drowning in the pool at his British estate in 1969. (For anyone wondering, Broomfield, who explored the theory that Cobain was murdered in 1998’s Kurt & Courtney, does not subscribe to the theory that Jones was the victim of foul play, detailed in Danny Garcia’s 2019 doc Rolling Stone: Life and Death of Brian Jones.)

Once he was forced to leave home, Jones also had a habit of moving in with a family of a young woman he knew, getting that girl pregnant, and then leaving — which, according to the film, happened at least five times. In The Stones and Brian Jones, people describe Jones as alternately sweet, gentlemanly, insecure or self-centered. “All of those words apply,” Wyman says. “Brian could flip from being nice and kind one minute to cruel and mean the next. He was also brilliantly clever — more so than the rest of us —but he often inadvertently made the wrong decisions, to his detriment.”

Even after so many decades, it’s still surprising to see how deeply Jones was invested in the Stones, even answering most of their fan mail himself. “When I joined, Brian was setting up our shows, deciding which songs we played and recorded, and signing all the management and recording contracts,” Wyman says. “Brian was making all the creative and business decisions on behalf of the band during this time.”

But the far more charismatic and confident Jagger was increasingly seen as the band’s frontman and leader, especially after the band began working with manager Andrew Loog Oldham. As far as when Jones stated losing control of his band, Wyman says, “I think it was when Andrew started encouraging Mick and Keith to write songs. Unfortunately, this caused Brian to lose confidence in himself as time went on. Brian, Charlie and I stopped doing so many interviews with press, radio and TV, as Andrew thrust Mick and Keith forward into the public eye.”

In an awkward moment captured in a vintage clip, a TV host approaches Jones, assuming he’s the band’s main composer. “I’m not really a writer,” Jones replied, shyly, before the host moves over to Jagger and Richards. We also hear a snippet of a sweet and lovely song Jones tried to write and sing himself, although he cuts himself off just after starting it. “He was totally insecure,” Wyman says, “so he was always worrying what people would think.”

Wyman confirms the legend that he and Jones were likely the closest in the band. “From the beginning I always shared rooms with Brian on the road” he says, “and we often went to clubs and other events together just the two of us, so we naturally became very close.” That bond is in stark contrast to vignettes about Jagger and Richards teasing Jones. In another older interview (the Stones did not cooperate with the film), Jagger admits the band was perhaps “a bit insensitive” when it came to Jones’ contributions or own songwriting. Richards is heard explaining that fame impacted Jones more than the others and that no one else in the band had the time or maturity to help him out.

The French model Zouzou, one of Jones’ many partners, also claims in the movie (as she did in the Rolling Stone doc) that Jones was increasingly dissatisfied with the music the Stones were making, especially “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction.” She recalls Jones telling her they were “writing shit” and said, of that song, “Look at this — it’s vulgar, it’s awful, it’s out of tune, it’s nothing.” Zouzou remembers Jones having crying-jag breakdowns, drinking Scotch and coke all day, and, given the bags under his eyes, asking her if he should get a facelift even though he was all of 24. By the time of the Stones’ Rock and Roll Circus TV special, Jones could barely play the guitar and looked prematurely weathered; its director, Michael Lindsay-Hogg, recalls Jones telling him that the Stones were making his life “a living hell.”

Does Wyman think the Stones could have done more to stop Jones’ downward spiral? “He did go into rehab in July 1967,” Wyman says. “I know because I visited him there. But ultimately it’s down to the person themselves, which can be so difficult, as it was for him.” As Wyman also recalls, “He once stubbed a cigar butt on my hand in the car, then he immediately apologized. He had a good heart but he could also have a wicked sense of humor.”

Thanks to old and new interviews with former lovers, The Stones and Brian Jones gets up close and personal, from his earliest, teenage relationships to another girlfriend’s description of Jones as an “insatiable” lover. Zouzou also tells Broomfield that Jones seemed to gravitate toward women who looked like him, especially in terms of matching bangs. “He didn’t like himself,” she says. “But at the same time, he wanted to have people who looked like himself, which is strange.” Jones could be so charming and courtly that he once talked one of his girlfriends’ parents into allowing her to go on the road with the Stones.

According to the film, Jones’ dark side kicked in when he hooked up with actress Anita Pallenberg, who lent his life an element of glamor and pharmaceutical risk-taking. In a new interview in the doc, Volker Schlöndorff, who directed Pallenberg in the Sixties cult noir Degree of Murder, wonders why she and Jones would trash the curtains in their hotel room rather than simply, say, opening them. In one particularly striking scene, Jones’ former girlfriend Linda Lawrence, in need of money for their son, visits him, but Jones and Pallenberg gaze down at them from a top floor, laugh, and never come to the door.

Leaving Jones for being what Richards calls “an a**hole” in the film, Pallenberg switches to Richards—literally going from Jones’ hotel room to Richards’ on the same Cannes Film Festival trip, as Schlöndorff recalls. Jones’ father is heard maintaining that breakup left Jones “morose.” His son’s drinking and drugging excesses certainly did continue, leading to the Stones firing him and his death just weeks later.

Given that Jones’ death took place 54 years ago — and that, as Broomfield says, he’s largely unknown outside of hardcore Stones fans — why are we still analyzing his brief life? “Brian was a staggering musical talent who contributed to the creation of many masterpieces,” Wyman says. “His legacy will continue for a long time to come.”

Jones’ lost promise could be another reason: Here, Eric Burdon of the Animals calls him “a bit of a genius,” and Jones’ work with the Moroccan group The Master Musicians of Joujouka, released after his death, revealed he was ahead of the curve when it came to rockers recognizing world music. Or maybe he’s now simply a metaphor. Jones’ death came just a few months prior to the horrific Altamont festival, which came to symbolize the death of whatever remained of the Sixties dream by December 1969. In the way Jones lost himself in a haze of fame, substances, and insecurity, The Stones and Brian Jones makes the case that he was a one-man Altamont of his own.

[www.rollingstone.com]

List of November 7 US theatre screenings - [www.magpictures.com]

Thanks. Excited to see the film.
My wife and I are going !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-06 20:43 by hot stuff.

This is available near me. Is it a good film or just trash? I was pretty intrigued.

Interesting ... bit of unseen footage ...
But lets face it we already know how it ends ....



ROCKMAN

Quote
Rockman
Interesting ... bit of unseen footage ...
But lets face it we already know how it ends ....

Yeah, but how exactly still remains a mystery...

I think the subject is quickly becoming exhausted. I'm sure I'll watch it, but it will probably just confirm things we already knew. Of course he was a bit of a genius, but it didn't last long. One wonders if he had the temperament to form another group after he lost his job with the Stones. He decidedly underestimated the other members of the Stones. They might have listened to him in the beginning, but the other's personalities were too strong to be led along by someone who really didn't have the managerial talents to be their leader for long.

He is a major character just by starting the band, and naming it. Unfortunately his real musical and sartorial contributions petered out pretty quick, and became more and more sporadic.

I went to see this film tonight. There was only one showtime. Including me, there were only 5 people in the theater. As a fan, I found the film interesting because I like seeing footage of my favorite band and interviews with their families, friends and lovers. It isn’t the best Stones-related documentary film I’ve seen; there was a bit too much slow-motion grainy footage. Nonetheless, it held my interest. I didn’t learn anything new. But my favorite parts were Bill Wyman playing air slide guitar (Little Red Rooster), air sitar (Paint it Black) and and air flute (Ruby Tuesday) while vocally sounding out those instruments to explain what he found so brilliant about what Brian added to those songs. He also did air bass to explain how he himself approached Satisfaction.

I saw it last night at Cape Cinema on Cape Cod, MA. One show only.

Did not count but probably around 50 of us there.

Good movie, but yes, not much that most of us long time fans did not already know.

The most incredible thing for me was seeing Bill Wyman speaking at length. I suppose he's done interviews in the years since he left the Stones, but this is the first time I saw one.

Still glad I went to see it.

‘The Stones and Brian Jones’ Review: Nick Broomfield’s Dark and Sad Rock Doc About the Lost Boy of the Rolling Stones

Genius or toxic narcissist? The founding member of the Stones gets his own profile in excess.

By Owen Gleiberman
November 9, 2023


Mirrorpix/Magnolia Pictures

[variety.com]

Quote
Lien
Last on

Thu 18 May 2023

BBC TWO

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Still available on BBC i Player or here

[videa.hu]

Quote
bye bye johnny
‘The Stones and Brian Jones’ Review: Nick Broomfield’s Dark and Sad Rock Doc About the Lost Boy of the Rolling Stones

Genius or toxic narcissist? The founding member of the Stones gets his own profile in excess.

By Owen Gleiberman
November 9, 2023


Mirrorpix/Magnolia Pictures

[variety.com]

The movie according to the Variety article says Brian didn’t like the pop music direction the band took away from their blues roots.But I think Brian was all for the kind of experimentation on songs like Lady Jane and 2000 Light YearsI think he is musically dominant as any in the band on Satanic Majesties .In interviews at the time of the album’s release he said he was very proud of the music.And Jimmy Miller said Brian told him at the beginning of the Beggars Banquet sessions he would not be of much use on a blues rock album because he was into electronic music.Even Mick said at the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame induction Brian took them off the course of rhythm and blues with often marvelous results