.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-07 06:25 by treaclefingers.

I do find it interesting that he drowned around 9:30PM and all the clips I’ve seen say the cops etc weren’t called until midnight?

Pc Evans arrived at 00.05. DCI Marshall and DS Hunter arrived at 03.00. Drugs officers Burcham and Harvey arrived at 00.30. Burcham still has his Police notebook with all the names of people present at 00.30.

Mary Hallett (Housekeeper) and Michael Martin (Head Gardener) seemed to be the only decent people amongst a very long list of shady characters, chancers and general low life who were present or had been around Cotchford in those last and final days of Brian's life.
One assumes the media 'Investigators' have probed them thoroughly (assuming they were willing to talk). But of course, they were not first hand witnesses...

I think with anyone else either in an official capacity or 'present' at the time, you end up being very sceptical about the accuracy of peoples' statements.

Death by misadventure was always in the cards for Brian. I recall an interview with Keith in which he said it was obvious Brian would never live to be 70. In other words, regardless of whether he drowned or was murdered on July 3rd, 1969 Brian was always destined to die young – he was never gonna see his 30th birthday. (I could be wrong of course – had he been resuscitated at pool side it’s possible that he might’ve gotten his act together and eventually been welcomed back into the fold where he would make stunning contributions to Some Girls and Undercover… or maybe he would’ve joined CCR or started his own band. Anything’s possible I guess but dead and buried by 30 is far more likely.) By rights, Brian Jones should be no more than a footnote in Stones folklore a la Pete Best but here we are still yapping on and making movies about him because of the mystery surrounding his death.

The evil curse of Brian Jones...?
A footnote in Stones history...?
No Jones No Stones !

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shortfatfanny
The evil curse of Brian Jones...?
A footnote in Stones history...?
No Jones No Stones !

Far too much weight given to Brian’s 'recruitment skills’. It probably took a million twists of fate to bring the Jagger/Richards songwriting team into existence – Brian deserves no special credit for putting an ad in a paper (so to speak).

Hell, I founded a band in high school – it required precious little talent, I assure you. Anybody can do it. Unfortunately the people I enlisted to assist me in my mission to dethrone the world’s greatest rock n’ roll band turned out to be incapable of writing hit songs.

He made a few sublime contributions like the slide on No Expectations, there’s no denying that. But Nicky Hopkins probably made twice as many. No, if not for the lurid circumstances of his demise he would be but a footnote at the bottom of a few album covers.

With all due respect, I dont think Pete Best, from a purely musical perspective was quite in the same league as Brian Jones!
They had one thing in common though: They were noth better looking than their band colleagues, which may have caused some of them some angst!

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Swayed1967
By rights, Brian Jones should be no more than a footnote in Stones folklore a la Pete Best...

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Swayed1967

He made a few sublime contributions like the slide on No Expectations, there’s no denying that. But Nicky Hopkins probably made twice as many. No, if not for the lurid circumstances of his demise he would be but a footnote at the bottom of a few album covers.

I see we have entered the inevitable ignorant @#$%& stage of any Brian Jones thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-08 14:17 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Swayed1967
By rights, Brian Jones should be no more than a footnote in Stones folklore a la Pete Best...

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Swayed1967

He made a few sublime contributions like the slide on No Expectations, there’s no denying that. But Nicky Hopkins probably made twice as many. No, if not for the lurid circumstances of his demise he would be but a footnote at the bottom of a few album covers.

I see we have entered the inevitable ignorant @#$%& stage of any Brian Jones thread.

He's the only Stone that passed away, 50 years ago already. It's the hardcore Stones fans only that acknowledge Brian's importance for the band. Many of the younger generation doesn't even know who Mick Taylor or Bill Wyman was; It's Ron Wood a who's the second guitarist in the stones for them, for 45 years already.And Daryl Jones the bass player for 25 years. That's life.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-08 14:43 by TheflyingDutchman.

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TheflyingDutchman

It's the hardcore Stones fans only that acknowledge Brian's importance for the band. Many of the younger generation doesn't even know who Mick Taylor or Bill Wyman was; It's Ron Wood who's the second guitarist in the stones for them, for 45 years already. That's life.

Instagram etc etc is chock full of young people endlessly posting about Brian.

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His Majesty

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Swayed1967
By rights, Brian Jones should be no more than a footnote in Stones folklore a la Pete Best...

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Swayed1967

He made a few sublime contributions like the slide on No Expectations, there’s no denying that. But Nicky Hopkins probably made twice as many. No, if not for the lurid circumstances of his demise he would be but a footnote at the bottom of a few album covers.

I see we have entered the inevitable ignorant @#$%& stage of any Brian Jones thread.

I guess that represents rather well the very reason why Bill Wyman once wrote STONE ALONE. To remember people that there actually was a time when The Rolling Stones were not just a Jagger/Richards show. But I guess Bill Wyman - like Mick Taylor and as Charlie Watts and Ronnie Wood will be - is just a 'footnote' in a grand Stones story, since not writing hit songs.

But nothing wrong that. There are some hardcore fans for whom the Stones are nothing but Keith Richards (and many casual fans just Mick Jagger), so I guess there is room for people for whom The Stones are nothing but Jagger/Richards hit songs. There are so many ways to see the band. The problems usually start when factual matters are confused with subjective opinions. But in the world of alternative facts we nowadays are destined to live in, so who really cares...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-08 14:55 by Doxa.

Each of us who loves the rolling stones have to make up our own mind about the importance of Brian Jones; I believe Brian was very important to the Rolling Stones.Nobody's point of view will change my mind.
Rockandroll,
Mops

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Doxa
The problems usually start when factual matters are confused with subjective opinions. But in the world of alternative facts we nowadays are destined to live in, so who really cares...

- Doxa

Simple but true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-08 15:00 by TheflyingDutchman.

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Doxa
...so who really cares...

- Doxa

I care!

I started a little musical companion book recently, what he played, how he played it etc... slowly working on it, bit by bit.

But, there are times, like now, when I feel like I have just wasted years of my life on this stuff and that it's pointless trying to even get Brian's own fans to see what he actually did as a musician as opposed to what they want to believe he did.

The detractors will always want him to be seen as a nothing loser figure. Quite sad that many of his own fans would rather he forever be the victim.

All his personal stuff is really rather meaningless to anyone outside of those directly affected. It's the music that matters. But even that seems to be meaningless too, or atleast so easily put aside for some drink, drugs, violence, and death speak.

During some 'debate' about what Brian played someone recently told me to "shut the @#$%& up!".

Sound advice.

HM...I care about your knowledge and your posts...
so keep on your good work...

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shortfatfanny
HM...I care about your knowledge and your posts...
so keep on your good work...

Yes, please keep on, HM!

The real problem is summed up in the title of this thread...

There remains a lot more morbid interest in Brian's death than interest in what he did in life.

...and that's the real shame.

HM - Keep your great posts going cause I luv them albums and info.

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His Majesty

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TheflyingDutchman

It's the hardcore Stones fans only that acknowledge Brian's importance for the band. Many of the younger generation doesn't even know who Mick Taylor or Bill Wyman was; It's Ron Wood who's the second guitarist in the stones for them, for 45 years already. That's life.

Instagram etc etc is chock full of young people endlessly posting about Brian.

And it’s all about the music for these young hipsters, is it?

Don’t think so. The term ‘cult following’ comes to mind which many artists who die prematurely seem to enjoy. (I actually met and bedded a Japanese girl some years back who was a huge Brian Jones fan but knew comparatively little about the Rolling Stones. She was a bit wacky…)

But don’t despair, mine is but one subjective opinion – you’re entitled to your own.
I have to say though the bare ‘facts’ would seem to be on my side – he only plays on a small percentage of their songs, none of which he wrote. Mick and Keith apparently agreed that he was expendable…
I’m not sure how anyone could argue against what I’m saying – other than to join the cult and scream ‘No Jones No Stones!’

I never, however, said he was a loser and I recognized his sublime contributions (Yeah I called them ‘sublime’! How much more effusive does my praise need to be for me not to be ignorant as FxxK?) And I love kazoos and dulcimers as much as the next bloke but c’mon those are footnote instruments. (Perhaps it’s the word ‘footnote’ that you find offensive. Ok, let’s put it this way – if he had just left the band and faded into obscurity rather than dying he wouldn’t today be generating much interest on Instagram or this board and I probably wouldn’t have banged that Japanese girl.)

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Swayed1967

And it’s all about the music for these young hipsters, is it?

I have to say though the bare ‘facts’ would seem to be on my side – he only plays on a small percentage of their songs, none of which he wrote.

More of the same.

It has to be all about the music? It's not all about the music for most of the active members here never mind 'young hipsters' on instagram.

Brian is on the majority of music recorded during 1962 - 1969. He is part of the Nanker Phelge credits. He helped write the arrangements with many distinctive contributions.

The bare facts and the music are not on your side. One need only listen to the mono box set to understand why.

Click the pic to open the Youtube link.



Re 'No Jones No Stones!'

'No Brian, Mick, & Keith No Stones!' It came in to existence when those three met. They and their wonky personal and musical relationships was...

"The emotional engine behind the whole thing - Keith Richards.

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Swayed1967
Ok, let’s put it this way – if he had just left the band and faded into obscurity rather than dying he wouldn’t today be generating much interest on Instagram or this board...

You assume obscurity.

There is only what happened and what has happened is his death and the tales about his life has totally overwhelmed him as a musician.

Had he lived no one knows how his musicianship would be viewed without all or some of that hanging over it. It is likely that Keith and co wouldn't have been so loose with their tongues because Brian still being alive removes much of the remembrance aspect from interviews etc.

...

Making it just about the music, it's easy to conclude that this cat was pretty @#$%& good. There he goes being part of a fantastic bit of team work by a great @#$%& band enhanced by a great @#$%& pianist and some friends.

Click the pic to open the Youtube link.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-09 12:57 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Swayed1967
Ok, let’s put it this way – if he had just left the band and faded into obscurity rather than dying he wouldn’t today be generating much interest on Instagram or this board...

You assume obscurity.

There is only what happened and what has happened is his death and the tales about his life has totally overwhelmed him as a musician.

Had he lived no one knows how his musicianship would be viewed without all or some of that hanging over it. It is likely that Keith and co wouldn't have been so loose with their tongues because Brian still being alive removes much of the remembrance aspect from interviews here Brian is mentioned.

...

Making it just about the music, it's easy to conclude that this cat was pretty @#$%& good. There he goes being part of a fantastic bit of team work by a great @#$%& band enhanced by a great @#$%& pianist and some friends.

Click the pic to open the Youtube link.

He might have ended up more or less like MIck Taylor. It's not easy to survive in music when you're not a good songwriter. You have to be a helluva musician then and stay sober just like say, Jeff Beck.

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TheflyingDutchman


He might have ended up...

... one of the most successful session musicians and record producers in the history of recorded music or a homeless alcoholic begging on the street or both.

No one knows. He died.

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His Majesty

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TheflyingDutchman


He might have ended up...

... one of the most successful session musicians and record producers in the history of recorded music or a homeless alcoholic begging on the street or both.

No one knows. He died.

I know, just my imagination.

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Swayed1967

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His Majesty

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TheflyingDutchman

It's the hardcore Stones fans only that acknowledge Brian's importance for the band. Many of the younger generation doesn't even know who Mick Taylor or Bill Wyman was; It's Ron Wood who's the second guitarist in the stones for them, for 45 years already. That's life.

Instagram etc etc is chock full of young people endlessly posting about Brian.

And it’s all about the music for these young hipsters, is it?

Don’t think so. The term ‘cult following’ comes to mind which many artists who die prematurely seem to enjoy. (I actually met and bedded a Japanese girl some years back who was a huge Brian Jones fan but knew comparatively little about the Rolling Stones. She was a bit wacky…)

But don’t despair, mine is but one subjective opinion – you’re entitled to your own.
I have to say though the bare ‘facts’ would seem to be on my side – he only plays on a small percentage of their songs, none of which he wrote. Mick and Keith apparently agreed that he was expendable…
I’m not sure how anyone could argue against what I’m saying – other than to join the cult and scream ‘No Jones No Stones!’

I never, however, said he was a loser and I recognized his sublime contributions (Yeah I called them ‘sublime’! How much more effusive does my praise need to be for me not to be ignorant as FxxK?) And I love kazoos and dulcimers as much as the next bloke but c’mon those are footnote instruments. (Perhaps it’s the word ‘footnote’ that you find offensive. Ok, let’s put it this way – if he had just left the band and faded into obscurity rather than dying he wouldn’t today be generating much interest on Instagram or this board and I probably wouldn’t have banged that Japanese girl.)

A small percentage of songs????? You claim the Japanese girl you bedded knew comparatively little about Brian Jones. How would you know when you know very little yourself.

First of all no cares about who you bedded. Why you have to add this has very little to do or add to the conversation. Let me just add some of Brian’s “small percentage” that you claim. He played guitar, harmonica or both on just about every track of the first three albums (British). How is that a small percentage? Some of those songs he shined on and dominated. To many to list here but I will add a few. Slide guitar Little Red Rooster. Tremolo guitar Mona. Lead guitar The Last Time. Brian completely dominates that song with his guitar part that he wrote. Harmonica Now I’ve Got a Witness. Then we get to Aftermath. Sparse? Even Oldham praised Brian Jones for his sparse contributions. Take Brian off of Aftermath and you might as well toss the album in the trash. Even on Beggars Banquet he played more than people think. His mellotron playing was astounding. Sparse might be your opinion but that certainly goes against what people really know or think. Brian stills gets knifed in the back to this very day. No Jones no Stones. How is that for a “footnote?”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-10 18:38 by ovalvox.

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ovalvox

A small percentage of songs????? You claim the Japanese girl you bedded knew comparatively little about Brian Jones. How would you know when you know very little yourself.

Hah, good point!

Did that Japanese girls name start with Y …… ??????????????



ROCKMAN

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His Majesty

It has to be all about the music? It's not all about the music for most of the active members here never mind 'young hipsters' on instagram.

Brian is on the majority of music recorded during 1962 - 1969. He is part of the Nanker Phelge credits. He helped write the arrangements with many distinctive contributions.

The bare facts and the music are not on your side. One need only listen to the mono box set to understand why.

Click the pic to open the Youtube link.

Ah yes, the formative years…very important and many a gem to be found there. I like those songs very much. Brian made some sublime contributions.

However, the only thing I really need to say to make my point is that the highest quality of Stones music was produced AFTER HE DIED (or in the case of Beggars AFTER HE HAD PASSED OUT, his slide on No Expectations being the one exception…yeah I know he played on some other songs but he didn’t play sublimely). You’ll want to argue that point I’m sure but it’s a fact accepted by the majority of fans. Thousands of years from now rock historians will categorize all albums up to Satanics as the formative years…or the first chapter, something like that (come to think of it, they do that already). And when analyzing the classic works, like Let It Bleed, in more depth, a footnote will appear: ‘It was during the recording of this album that the band’s founder, Brian Jones, a talented but troubled musician who had often added color to earlier Stones recordings with his innovative use of exotic instruments, was expelled from the group. He died soon after under mysterious circumstances.’

Sorry but he’s going to be a footnote.

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ovalvox

A small percentage of songs????? You claim the Japanese girl you bedded knew comparatively little about Brian Jones. How would you know when you know very little yourself.

I don’t know if you were purposely being obtuse to get in your little jibe but I obviously meant that since he hasn’t played on any Stones record since 1970, the percentage of songs he has played on in their complete catalog continues to go down. It’s somewhat silly I admit but it’s still a fact. He hasn’t been a member of this band for 50 years including during the so-called Golden Period. He is remembered today as much if not more for the ghoulish circumstances surrounding his death than his musical contributions. But I don’t see many more books on his death being written. Rather than being the subject of books he will be a footnote in books about a band for which he played tuba, the kazoo, dulcimer etc. in about 23% of their songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-14 11:19 by Swayed1967.