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The article His Majesty posted is very interesting -apperently it is quite easy to get a black out during a swim, to which the body reacts by pressung the lungs for a gasp of air. It states that this can happen to experienced swimmers.
Anyone who has ever been quite drunk and mixed it with drugs knows there is this very fine line between feeling fine and passing out. Here in Amsterdam 20 tourists a year die falling over in a canal while taking a pee -they are all so drunk they drown within 30 seconds.
If a nurse says Brian was too drunk to speak normally, if Brian says he had taken his sleepers, and if the coroner states there were no visible marks on him the debate whether he was killed should have ended by July 5 1969.
Mathijs
Yes, barbiturates, drunk, and eventually an asthma attack. I read it long ago, I cannot remember exactly where.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-02 01:24 by TheflyingDutchman.
So did Brian really take some sleepers /barbiturates or not?
Huh ?!
Weren't barbiturates the drugs he was mostly using, making a lot of his problems?
The drugs all rock stars were using in large quantities in 1969 and 1970 and caused so many to die, were tuinal (barbiturates, the 'reds'), quaaludes (the 'green and blues'), morphine, coke, herion, hash and LSD. Preferably washed down with brandy.
Kids, just don't take a swim when you're out.
Ps you know how much alcohol you must drink for your liver to be twice the size at age 27? Frigging hell he must have really over indulged for a long, long time.
Mathijs
I recall reading in some Brian Jones bio ages ago that already during some 1965 American tour it was normal that he drank a bottle of whisky in a day. The guy seemingly lived like there is no tomorrow from quite early on. However, alcohol(ism) is traditionally kept as a lesser vice among Stones circles and folklore, almost not worth mentioning...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-02 16:48 by Doxa.
I wonder if they even tried to stop him.
Keith Charlie Jagger on Brian.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-02 17:01 by TheflyingDutchman.
I think the 'large quantity of drugs' related to an amphetamine.
Which like so much else, has never properly been answered.
He was back in in March 1969.
Help was available, but perhaps not the right kind of help.
Treatment and understanding for anything is always a developing thing and part of the treatment and understanding then was to throw drugs at the problem.
Although I agree that there's a smell around Brian's death, there's no evidence unless there's actual footage of Brian either being murdered by workers or "just" drowned by passing out during a swim. What makes me sick is that people made or try to make money and getting some sort of attention out of it. It's 50 years ago, the truth will never see the light of the day. At least I got no expectations. What a beautiful contribution by Brian.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-06 01:09 by TheflyingDutchman.
Just because you are 'at odds' with someone doesnt make you want to kill them. Unless you have psychopathic tendencies and as far as I am aware none of the so called culprits had.
Brian was of lesser value to these people dead than alive. They could have continued to free load off Brian who was vulnerable and needed the company.
He didn't have much ready cash at the time of his death, but by all accounts was due to get a sizeable pay off from Rolling Stones Ltd /ABKCO and a very good annual income as part of his pay off.
The house parties would have continued, the girls would be around and Frank and others could have continued to make more dosh out of their Stones connection.
As it was Frank's work at Cotchford finished and Keylock became an ex Stones employee within a year.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-06 14:02 by jlowe.
He was relieved of his services soon after Hyde Park.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 1, 2019 23:30
If I remember it correctly I read that Brian could have suffered from an asthma attack, something he suffered from anyway. Since he was good swimmer it seems unlikely that the combinaton of taking barbiturates and alcohol only could have been the cause his drowning. If you feel you're passing out in a swimming pool the body generates enough adrenaline to make it to the save spot. If you cannot breath properly then you have bad luck, even in a swimming pool. Just my two cents.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-01 23:33 by TheflyingDutchman.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-01 23:33 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 2, 2019 00:09
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
If I remember it correctly I read that Brian could have suffered from an asthma attack, something he suffered from anyway. Since he was good swimmer it seems unlikely that the combinaton of taking barbiturates and alcohol only could have been the cause his drowning. If you feel you're passing out in a swimming pool the body generates enough adrenaline to make it to the save spot. If you cannot breath properly then you have bad luck, even in a swimming pool. Just my two cents.
The article His Majesty posted is very interesting -apperently it is quite easy to get a black out during a swim, to which the body reacts by pressung the lungs for a gasp of air. It states that this can happen to experienced swimmers.
Anyone who has ever been quite drunk and mixed it with drugs knows there is this very fine line between feeling fine and passing out. Here in Amsterdam 20 tourists a year die falling over in a canal while taking a pee -they are all so drunk they drown within 30 seconds.
If a nurse says Brian was too drunk to speak normally, if Brian says he had taken his sleepers, and if the coroner states there were no visible marks on him the debate whether he was killed should have ended by July 5 1969.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 2, 2019 01:21
Quote
MathijsQuote
TheflyingDutchman
If I remember it correctly I read that Brian could have suffered from an asthma attack, something he suffered from anyway. Since he was good swimmer it seems unlikely that the combinaton of taking barbiturates and alcohol only could have been the cause his drowning. If you feel you're passing out in a swimming pool the body generates enough adrenaline to make it to the save spot. If you cannot breath properly then you have bad luck, even in a swimming pool. Just my two cents.
The article His Majesty posted is very interesting -apperently it is quite easy to get a black out during a swim, to which the body reacts by pressung the lungs for a gasp of air. It states that this can happen to experienced swimmers.
Anyone who has ever been quite drunk and mixed it with drugs knows there is this very fine line between feeling fine and passing out. Here in Amsterdam 20 tourists a year die falling over in a canal while taking a pee -they are all so drunk they drown within 30 seconds.
If a nurse says Brian was too drunk to speak normally, if Brian says he had taken his sleepers, and if the coroner states there were no visible marks on him the debate whether he was killed should have ended by July 5 1969.
Mathijs
Yes, barbiturates, drunk, and eventually an asthma attack. I read it long ago, I cannot remember exactly where.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-02 01:24 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Tseverin
()
Date: August 2, 2019 01:41
“Dr Albert Sachs, a pathologist, said he found no evidence in the lung to suggest Jones had had a recent attack of asthma...”
“His blood contained 140 milligrams per cent of alcohol, but there was no evidence of barbiturates.”
“His blood contained 140 milligrams per cent of alcohol, but there was no evidence of barbiturates.”
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 2, 2019 01:51
Thanks for setting that straight. Maybe I remembered this statement and mixed it up with "he found evidence in the lung to suggest Jones had had a recent attack of asthma".
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: August 2, 2019 02:17
Quote
Tseverin
“Dr Albert Sachs, a pathologist, said he found no evidence in the lung to suggest Jones had had a recent attack of asthma...”
“His blood contained 140 milligrams per cent of alcohol, but there was no evidence of barbiturates.”
So did Brian really take some sleepers /barbiturates or not?
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: August 2, 2019 06:49
Does it matter? He's still dead. There's no one to prosecute. It doesn't change a thing.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 2, 2019 14:10
"Dr Albert Sachs, a pathologist, said he found no evidence in the lung to suggest Jones had had a recent attack of asthma, but it was evident that he had some form of chronic bronchial trouble. "For a man of his age, his heart was a bit larger than it should have been. It was fatty and flabby. His liver was twice the normal weight."
His blood contained 140 milligrammes per cent of alcohol, but there was no evidence of barbiturates. It was obvious, on examining his blood, that Jones had consumed a large quantity of drugs."
[www.theguardian.com]
Mathijs
His blood contained 140 milligrammes per cent of alcohol, but there was no evidence of barbiturates. It was obvious, on examining his blood, that Jones had consumed a large quantity of drugs."
[www.theguardian.com]
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 2, 2019 14:20
The Cranberries female front singer even drowned in bath due to intoxication. Everything is possible, unfortunately.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
CousinC
()
Date: August 2, 2019 14:34
Quote
Mathijs
but there was no evidence of barbiturates. It was obvious, on examining his blood, that Jones had consumed a large quantity of drugs."
[www.theguardian.com]
Mathijs
Huh ?!
Weren't barbiturates the drugs he was mostly using, making a lot of his problems?
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 2, 2019 14:58
Quote
CousinCQuote
Mathijs
but there was no evidence of barbiturates. It was obvious, on examining his blood, that Jones had consumed a large quantity of drugs."
[www.theguardian.com]
Mathijs
Huh ?!
Weren't barbiturates the drugs he was mostly using, making a lot of his problems?
The drugs all rock stars were using in large quantities in 1969 and 1970 and caused so many to die, were tuinal (barbiturates, the 'reds'), quaaludes (the 'green and blues'), morphine, coke, herion, hash and LSD. Preferably washed down with brandy.
Kids, just don't take a swim when you're out.
Ps you know how much alcohol you must drink for your liver to be twice the size at age 27? Frigging hell he must have really over indulged for a long, long time.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: August 2, 2019 15:09
Barbs also are very hard on your pulmonary system and airwaves. And we know that Brian suffered from asthma.
I think Seconal and Nembutal were the main barbs taken in UK. I once asked Steve Marriott specific questions about drugs in his day.
In my mind I always thought of Tuinals as a NY drug.
I think Seconal and Nembutal were the main barbs taken in UK. I once asked Steve Marriott specific questions about drugs in his day.
In my mind I always thought of Tuinals as a NY drug.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 2, 2019 16:46
Quote
Mathijs
Ps you know how much alcohol you must drink for your liver to be twice the size at age 27? Frigging hell he must have really over indulged for a long, long time.
Mathijs
I recall reading in some Brian Jones bio ages ago that already during some 1965 American tour it was normal that he drank a bottle of whisky in a day. The guy seemingly lived like there is no tomorrow from quite early on. However, alcohol(ism) is traditionally kept as a lesser vice among Stones circles and folklore, almost not worth mentioning...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-02 16:48 by Doxa.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 2, 2019 17:00
Quote
DoxaQuote
Mathijs
Ps you know how much alcohol you must drink for your liver to be twice the size at age 27? Frigging hell he must have really over indulged for a long, long time.
Mathijs
I recall reading in some Brian Jones bio ages ago that already during some 1965 American tour it was normal that he drank a bottle of whisky in a day. The guy seemingly lived like there is no tomorrow from quite early on. However, alcohol(ism) is traditionally kept as a lesser vice among Stones circles and folklore, almost not worth mentioning...
- Doxa
I wonder if they even tried to stop him.
Keith Charlie Jagger on Brian.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-02 17:01 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: August 2, 2019 17:49
Quote
CousinCQuote
Mathijs
but there was no evidence of barbiturates. It was obvious, on examining his blood, that Jones had consumed a large quantity of drugs."
[www.theguardian.com]
Mathijs
Huh ?!
Weren't barbiturates the drugs he was mostly using, making a lot of his problems?
I think the 'large quantity of drugs' related to an amphetamine.
Which like so much else, has never properly been answered.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 2, 2019 21:48
Quote
His Majesty
@#$%&.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: August 2, 2019 23:51
Those comments in the video are spot on, imo, and probably the closest Mick, Keith and Charlie ever got to just balls-out honesty.
It's very difficult to arrest an addict's journey, and in that subculture of mid-60s, British rock and roll, it would have been almost impossible. In the '70s, the topic of recovery began to gain traction the wider culture, and men like Pete Townsend and Eric Clapton took advantage of the help out there.
At the time, Mick and Keith figured, 'We're using lots of drugs, and we show up at the studio in condition to play, why can't he?'
And Charlie is a man who chooses not to get involved, and doesn't stand for people dis-respecting him anyway.
I think Brian did get some offers of help from a psychologist but he was probably too far gone at that time. Perhaps if he had left the band earlier and done a Dylan-like sabbatical he might have been saved.
It's very difficult to arrest an addict's journey, and in that subculture of mid-60s, British rock and roll, it would have been almost impossible. In the '70s, the topic of recovery began to gain traction the wider culture, and men like Pete Townsend and Eric Clapton took advantage of the help out there.
At the time, Mick and Keith figured, 'We're using lots of drugs, and we show up at the studio in condition to play, why can't he?'
And Charlie is a man who chooses not to get involved, and doesn't stand for people dis-respecting him anyway.
I think Brian did get some offers of help from a psychologist but he was probably too far gone at that time. Perhaps if he had left the band earlier and done a Dylan-like sabbatical he might have been saved.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: August 3, 2019 18:04
In his final years Brian was an in patient at The Priory, a high cost Clinic.
At his trials reference was made to Psychiatric evaluations and support.
Wether by 1969 he was actually under any Care arrangements is not clear; however its not true to say that help was not available.
At his trials reference was made to Psychiatric evaluations and support.
Wether by 1969 he was actually under any Care arrangements is not clear; however its not true to say that help was not available.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2019 13:34
Quote
jlowe
In his final years Brian was an in patient at The Priory, a high cost Clinic.
At his trials reference was made to Psychiatric evaluations and support.
Wether by 1969 he was actually under any Care arrangements is not clear; however its not true to say that help was not available.
He was back in in March 1969.
Help was available, but perhaps not the right kind of help.
Treatment and understanding for anything is always a developing thing and part of the treatment and understanding then was to throw drugs at the problem.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
mickschix
()
Date: August 5, 2019 19:31
Mathijs, that is way too simplistic, not widely accepted.( that the cause of death was due to intoxication alone) If you've been a Stones fan for many years, it IS widely accepted that Brian & frank were at odds over $$ and the renovating of Brians' home....not made up, not a stretch..many interviewed witnesses over the years said so..not MY OPINION, just basic facts of the case. Too bad all of the folks at that scene that night are dead....I still find this tragically fascinating, if you don't, FINE!
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 5, 2019 22:03
The Hotchner version of events is correct.
There was a party. He wrote ‘three guys’ had it in for Brian’. They were Frank, Johnny Betsworth and Maurice Tucker. They kept pushing Brian under water, also grabbing him from behind. Hotchner’s witness apprentice Marty was in fact Martin S, who died in Poole in 2005. The blame was on Frank because Tucker and Betsworth were Chichester Police informants.
There was a party. He wrote ‘three guys’ had it in for Brian’. They were Frank, Johnny Betsworth and Maurice Tucker. They kept pushing Brian under water, also grabbing him from behind. Hotchner’s witness apprentice Marty was in fact Martin S, who died in Poole in 2005. The blame was on Frank because Tucker and Betsworth were Chichester Police informants.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 5, 2019 22:16
At 9.30 PM Brian was dead. Tom made some of the guests disappear, called his brother DCI Frank Keylock in London, Frank asked his boss Wallace Virgo to step in. Virgo pulled rank on TC Williams, head of the Sussex Police and Williams told DCI Marshall to drop the investigation. Reporters Harry Jones and Sid Curtis took photos of the dead body which will probably emerge in the near future.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: August 5, 2019 23:51
Quote
paulspendel
The Hotchner version of events is correct.
There was a party. He wrote ‘three guys’ had it in for Brian’. They were Frank, Johnny Betsworth and Maurice Tucker. They kept pushing Brian under water, also grabbing him from behind. Hotchner’s witness apprentice Marty was in fact Martin S, who died in Poole in 2005. The blame was on Frank because Tucker and Betsworth were Chichester Police informants.
Although I agree that there's a smell around Brian's death, there's no evidence unless there's actual footage of Brian either being murdered by workers or "just" drowned by passing out during a swim. What makes me sick is that people made or try to make money and getting some sort of attention out of it. It's 50 years ago, the truth will never see the light of the day. At least I got no expectations. What a beautiful contribution by Brian.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-06 01:09 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 6, 2019 00:21
I never earned one single penny with my research. I made an effort and concentrated on tracking down Thorogood Chichester building crew. The surviving guys gave me the story. There’s nothing more to it.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: August 6, 2019 00:44
Reporters Harry Jones and Sid Curtis took photos of the dead body which will probably emerge in the near future.
I hope not …..
ROCKMAN
I hope not …..
ROCKMAN
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: August 6, 2019 14:01
Quote
mickschix
Mathijs, that is way too simplistic, not widely accepted.( that the cause of death was due to intoxication alone) If you've been a Stones fan for many years, it IS widely accepted that Brian & frank were at odds over $$ and the renovating of Brians' home....not made up, not a stretch..many interviewed witnesses over the years said so..not MY OPINION, just basic facts of the case. Too bad all of the folks at that scene that night are dead....I still find this tragically fascinating, if you don't, FINE!
Just because you are 'at odds' with someone doesnt make you want to kill them. Unless you have psychopathic tendencies and as far as I am aware none of the so called culprits had.
Brian was of lesser value to these people dead than alive. They could have continued to free load off Brian who was vulnerable and needed the company.
He didn't have much ready cash at the time of his death, but by all accounts was due to get a sizeable pay off from Rolling Stones Ltd /ABKCO and a very good annual income as part of his pay off.
The house parties would have continued, the girls would be around and Frank and others could have continued to make more dosh out of their Stones connection.
As it was Frank's work at Cotchford finished and Keylock became an ex Stones employee within a year.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-06 14:02 by jlowe.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 7, 2019 01:03
Electrician Dave Hills from East Wittering told me that there were several fights between Brian and the builders in the months leading up to Brian’s death. At one occasion they threw Brian out of his own kitchen. All these fights had to do with an increasing lack of payments. The builders knew the well was drying up. The fight that killed Brian was one of many fights.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 7, 2019 02:04
Quote
jlowe
Keylock became an ex Stones employee within a year.
He was relieved of his services soon after Hyde Park.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: August 7, 2019 03:25
Possibly Brian was being a twat and somebody else being a twat pushed him in the pool or dunked him. One lungfull of water and ... drowned.
Not murder, not even manslaughter. Just misadventure fueled by his condition.
Not murder, not even manslaughter. Just misadventure fueled by his condition.
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