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Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 4, 2019 12:24

I think my point is noone (maybe Brian) showed Keith a tuning. He studied a style and he cooied licks, riffs, rhythms and used it in songs. This goeas against the image of Keith learning a tuning and then coming up with everything by accident. Again nothing wrong in that, he had his own style and came up with new ground breaking stuff. Fans have a hard time imagining their hero listening to a recorded guitar part, trying to figured it out. It’s a provocative scene, more so than the heroin, the car crashes or ”saving Anita”.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 4, 2019 12:36

Everybody knows that he listened to recorded parts, and that he tried to figure it out. It's well documented, for instance when he and Brian listened to Robert Johnson.

It's not provocative at all. On the contrary, it's common for guitarists.

How he used his new knowledge and how the inspiration materialised in new, great songs is something he deserves far more credit for than the "sponge job"-comments, imo.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: triceratops ()
Date: July 4, 2019 13:08

Quote
Redhotcarpet
They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

Truth indeed! The "country" Stones are my favorite era

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 4, 2019 13:31

Quote
Redhotcarpet
I think my point is noone (maybe Brian) showed Keith a tuning. He studied a style and he cooied licks, riffs, rhythms and used it in songs. This goeas against the image of Keith learning a tuning and then coming up with everything by accident. Again nothing wrong in that, he had his own style and came up with new ground breaking stuff. Fans have a hard time imagining their hero listening to a recorded guitar part, trying to figured it out. It’s a provocative scene, more so than the heroin, the car crashes or ”saving Anita”.

The hero thing is a cop out. This is musical.

Much of this style was already in place before he'd even met Ry Cooder.

Ry is one small part in a long line of influences.

We could spend a long time picking out parts from pre Cooder Rolling Stones recordings that shows the development of his 'signature' sound.

The main source is Chuck Berry. He is Keith's core template for lead and rhythm. Keith most notably refined this and blended in other influences and created a distinctive heart beat that is a large and defining part of The Rolling Stones sound.

You can even hear this distinctive rhythmic phrasing in his kazoo playing from 1966. grinning smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 4, 2019 14:57

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Redhotcarpet
I think my point is noone (maybe Brian) showed Keith a tuning. He studied a style and he cooied licks, riffs, rhythms and used it in songs. This goeas against the image of Keith learning a tuning and then coming up with everything by accident. Again nothing wrong in that, he had his own style and came up with new ground breaking stuff. Fans have a hard time imagining their hero listening to a recorded guitar part, trying to figured it out. It’s a provocative scene, more so than the heroin, the car crashes or ”saving Anita”.

The hero thing is a cop out. This is musical.

Much of this style was already in place before he'd even met Ry Cooder.

Ry is one small part in a long line of influences.

We could spend a long time picking out parts from pre Cooder Rolling Stones recordings that shows the development of his 'signature' sound.

The main source is Chuck Berry. He is Keith's core template for lead and rhythm. Keith most notably refined this and blended in other influences and created a distinctive heart beat that is a large and defining part of The Rolling Stones sound.

You can even hear this distinctive rhythmic phrasing in his kazoo playing from 1966. grinning smiley

Agree the main source is Chuck Berry. but by 1965, after the various American tours he really started to incorporate country influences in his playing, especially in his acoustic approach. Sitting on A Fence of course, but also the way he started to use the acoustic as a backup on things like High and Dry and Think. He became a fine finger picker that went beyond blues and Berry.

Mathijs

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 4, 2019 15:24

Quote
Mathijs


Agree the main source is Chuck Berry. but by 1965, after the various American tours he really started to incorporate country influences in his playing, especially in his acoustic approach. Sitting on A Fence of course, but also the way he started to use the acoustic as a backup on things like High and Dry and Think. He became a fine finger picker that went beyond blues and Berry.

Mathijs

Yes, an ace acoustic player.

thumbs up

Was focusing on the main rhythmic throb in relation to his signature sound.

Keith took about 3 licks from Cooder, the rest is all from elsewhere and his own imagination.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 4, 2019 15:28

I find Keith's acoustic playing even more mesmerising than his electric stuff.

To this day on acoustic he retains such a sublime touch, and a feel for note choice and chord voicings .

Always sounding simple... but deceptively subtle & beautiful.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 4, 2019 15:32

More than three licks. ”I took Ry Cooder for all I could get” said Keith.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 4, 2019 15:39

So does it matter one jot how much of Ry Cooder's playing Keith absorbed and incorporated into his own style ?

Does Keith Richards sound like Ry Cooder ?

Not even remotely ...

So what exactly is the point or issue ? confused smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 4, 2019 15:46

Quote
Redhotcarpet
More than three licks. ”I took Ry Cooder for all I could get” said Keith.

Keith has said a lot of things over the years.

'all I could get' maybe doesn't mean quite what you appear to want it to mean.

The 'all' doesn't appear to have been all that much.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 4, 2019 15:58

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Redhotcarpet
More than three licks. ”I took Ry Cooder for all I could get” said Keith.

Keith has said a lot of things over the years.

'all I could get' maybe doesn't mean quite what you appear to want it to mean.

The 'all' doesn't appear to have been all that much.

"All I could get" may also mean just one lick (if he didn't master more) winking smiley

What was the third lick, btw? smoking smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 4, 2019 16:18

All I can say is that the Stones would have sounded different if Chuck Berry was never born.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 4, 2019 16:27

Quote
DandelionPowderman

"All I could get" may also mean just one lick (if he didn't master more) winking smiley

What was the third lick, btw? smoking smiley

grinning smiley


Quote
TheflyingDutchman
All I can say is that the Stones would have sounded different if Chuck Berry was never born.

Can't even envisage it. eye popping smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 4, 2019 16:28

Never mind the Stones ...

the whole genre of "Rock" music would have sounded different if Chuck Berry had never been born .

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 4, 2019 16:33

Quote
Spud
Never mind the Stones ...

the whole genre of "Rock" music would have sounded different if Chuck Berry had never been born .

Indeed. smoking smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: July 4, 2019 16:53

Keith did sythesize his sound from all kinds of sources. And a lot of what we know as his sound was created 1966 to 1969 when they were off the road and hanging in London. Didn't he write that he came off the 1966 tour with loads of records to finally study. Not having Brian around also helped him create his own sound. One key part of his sound is the way he gets his guitar to sound in the studio. Also he's got a way of layering two or more guitar parts sometimes to make it sound like one. The intro to Gimme Shelter, for example, is known to have a second guitar kind of supporting the main guitar.
He took a lot from Cooder, or Graham Parsons, but I have a feeling he gave a lot to them, too. He is a very companionable musician. He took a lot from Mick, too, in that Mick is a great editor and helps him organize his ideas (like Steve Jordan later did.) Of course he gave a lot to Mick, too -- gave him those ideas to work with, taught him guitar, etc. When Mick is out front on the highwire in fron of 70,000 people, he is supporting by those mammoth Keith Richards riffs.
Later Keith developed another sound -- those jazzy ballads like All About You -- that some find boring but I wish he had done more of.
I have no problem conceding that Keith took a lot from Ry Cooder but what he added is the most important part.
As a music fan (not a musician!) what I enjoy most is the harmony created by a group of musicians. What makes the Stones great is that sum or the parts is greater than the whole.
...
Redhotcarpet said it best -- this is what's interesting about Keith, not the drugs or Anita or the skull ring, etc., etc.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 4, 2019 17:54

Quote
wonderboy
...Later Keith developed another sound -- those jazzy ballads like All About You -- that some find boring but I wish he had done more of.
.

Me too ...but that love for "torch songs" was always a part of Keith's musical heritage , harking right back to all the stuff he soaked up as a kid in what was really quite a musical family.

It took a while to surface on record because Keith was conscious that it didn't fit his image and wasn't what folks expected from him.

As the years have passed he's become much more comfortable in his skin and much happier to put this stuff out there.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 4, 2019 18:08

I also think that folks sometimes forget what an outstanding and intuitive all round musician Keith is.

Whether it's Rock, Blues, Reggae, Country, Jazzy ballads ...he can do it all with real feel and authenticity.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 5, 2019 14:09

I think Keith's one and only true talent is to create. To write songs, melodies, riff's, lead lines, basically to create something that wasn't there before.

There's so many riffs he made of of little phrases that thousands of us mortal guitarist have played on the couch a million times, but Keith is able to recognize the song in that tired old riff. That's his biggest talent.

He never ripped Cooder off. He took a little riff, a simple slide, and created the intro to Tumbling Dice, which in all essence is truly unique. Same for CYHMK, Casino Boogie, All Down the Line -all based on that couple of licks he got from Cooder, but created into a new and unique body of work.

Mathijs

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 5, 2019 14:50

Quote
Mathijs

...There's so many riffs he made of little phrases that thousands of us mortal guitarist have played on the couch a million times, but Keith is able to recognize the song in that tired old riff.... Mathijs

thumbs up

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 5, 2019 15:58

Quote
Mathijs
I think Keith's one and only true talent is to create. To write songs, melodies, riff's, lead lines, basically to create something that wasn't there before.

There's so many riffs he made of of little phrases that thousands of us mortal guitarist have played on the couch a million times, but Keith is able to recognize the song in that tired old riff. That's his biggest talent.

He never ripped Cooder off. He took a little riff, a simple slide, and created the intro to Tumbling Dice, which in all essence is truly unique. Same for CYHMK, Casino Boogie, All Down the Line -all based on that couple of licks he got from Cooder, but created into a new and unique body of work.

Mathijs

exactly. This has always been my answer to Bill Wyman's claim that he wrote 'Jumpin Jack Flash". There are millions of musicians out there noodling, jamming, pros and amateurs. And every one of them will play a cool lick here and there. On a guitar, a bass, a piano.
What sets the writers, the visionaries apart, are the ones who recognize the song in there, the potential that is locked in there.
Bill may have very well played that lick for the first time. But it never would have left the room; had Keith not heard it and picked it up. I am positive Bill knows this.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 5, 2019 16:23

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Quote
Mathijs
I think Keith's one and only true talent is to create. To write songs, melodies, riff's, lead lines, basically to create something that wasn't there before.

There's so many riffs he made of of little phrases that thousands of us mortal guitarist have played on the couch a million times, but Keith is able to recognize the song in that tired old riff. That's his biggest talent.

He never ripped Cooder off. He took a little riff, a simple slide, and created the intro to Tumbling Dice, which in all essence is truly unique. Same for CYHMK, Casino Boogie, All Down the Line -all based on that couple of licks he got from Cooder, but created into a new and unique body of work.

Mathijs

exactly. This has always been my answer to Bill Wyman's claim that he wrote 'Jumpin Jack Flash". There are millions of musicians out there noodling, jamming, pros and amateurs. And every one of them will play a cool lick here and there. On a guitar, a bass, a piano.
What sets the writers, the visionaries apart, are the ones who recognize the song in there, the potential that is locked in there.
Bill may have very well played that lick for the first time. But it never would have left the room; had Keith not heard it and picked it up. I am positive Bill knows this.

thumbs up

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 5, 2019 16:28

thumbs up @ Mathijs and Palace Revolution 2000.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 5, 2019 20:44

Haha, of course. Wyman came up with the riff to JJF. He never said he wrote the song.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 5, 2019 20:45

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Haha, of course. Wyman came up with the riff to JJF. He never said he wrote the song.

No one, but Bill say's he did. He claimed there was an article with Keith saying he did. That's yet to appear.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 5, 2019 20:48

Quote
Mathijs
I think Keith's one and only true talent is to create. To write songs, melodies, riff's, lead lines, basically to create something that wasn't there before.

There's so many riffs he made of of little phrases that thousands of us mortal guitarist have played on the couch a million times, but Keith is able to recognize the song in that tired old riff. That's his biggest talent.

He never ripped Cooder off. He took a little riff, a simple slide, and created the intro to Tumbling Dice, which in all essence is truly unique. Same for CYHMK, Casino Boogie, All Down the Line -all based on that couple of licks he got from Cooder, but created into a new and unique body of work.

Mathijs

He didnt take one little riff. He didnt just create stuff, he also used and incorporated stuff by others as well. They obviously gained a lot from working with Miller and they obviously used what others in and outside the band came up with.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 6, 2019 22:55

Quote
Mathijs
I think Keith's one and only true talent is to create. To write songs, melodies, riff's, lead lines, basically to create something that wasn't there before.


Mathijs


And the wind cries mary.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-06 23:09 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 7, 2019 16:35

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
Mathijs
I think Keith's one and only true talent is to create. To write songs, melodies, riff's, lead lines, basically to create something that wasn't there before.


Mathijs


And the wind cries mary.

What does that mean in this context?

Mathijs

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 7, 2019 22:54

I just wonder to what extent Keith was influenced by jimi hendrix's guitar playing from lets say 1964 and onwards.
As far as I know Keith never talked about it or acknowledged it. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: July 8, 2019 08:38

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
I just wonder to what extent Keith was influenced by jimi hendrix's guitar playing from lets say 1964 and onwards.
As far as I know Keith never talked about it or acknowledged it. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Who’d knowingly heard Hendrix in 1964, though?

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