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Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 2, 2019 00:59

They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: July 2, 2019 01:25

Quote

They did a sponge job on Cooder.

I didn't see that episode of sponge job.

.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: July 2, 2019 12:47

Quote
Redhotcarpet
They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

So what?

They also did a sponge job of a plethora of blues, soul and reggae artists, chuck berry, the meters, etc etc etc

The result is that in the music of the Stones there is a little bit of everything. It's the mix that makes them original

C

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 2, 2019 13:02

Quote
schillid
What about open E?

E - B - E - G# - B - E

Did the Stones use that on any tunes?
It's the same as open D; just a step up. Some guitars don't do well like that; others (like my damn Gretsch) don't do well in Open D because it all gets loosey.

I don't think in the evolution of a musician, especially one as well traveled and popular as Keith, does it ever come down to one specific moment or person.
Maybe the Ry encounter got that attention because he (Ry) kept complaining about it.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: July 2, 2019 13:20

Quote
Redhotcarpet
They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

Sure but in art it's not about who steals what from who BUT what you do with what you learnt from others... In other words, Cooder had that knowledge about alt tunings, but did he ever wrote a tune that's as powerful as the ones Keef wrote using the same exotic tunings? Nah... Nothing. Ever.

And the supreme irony is the tune Cooder is mostly know for (the theme from "Paris Texas") is heavily borrowed from a 1920's blues ("Cold Was The Night, Dark Was The Ground").

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 2, 2019 14:44

Tunings is not what I was talking about, I mean actual riffs, licks etc. it’s legal but it’s also a sponge job in his case.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 2, 2019 14:46

Quote
liddas
Quote
Redhotcarpet
They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

So what?

They also did a sponge job of a plethora of blues, soul and reggae artists, chuck berry, the meters, etc etc etc

The result is that in the music of the Stones there is a little bit of everything. It's the mix that makes them original

C

They invited the unknown Chuck Berry to the studio, recorded him snd used his material in their songs?

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: July 2, 2019 15:17

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Tunings is not what I was talking about, I mean actual riffs, licks etc.

Do you think that Keith in 1969 (the best creative year of his entire life) needed to borrow riffs from someone else?

(this is not a personal attack this is a genuine question I ask...).

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 2, 2019 16:20

19 Nervous Breakdown, Gimme Shelter, Monkey Man and Can't You hear me Knocking are my favourite Keith (intro) Riffs, stand-alone things. His G/G sus4 riffs, be it in standard or open tuning, like Start me up or Hot Stuff, and his Berry riffs are played great, but on the long term are a repetition of moves that also work because his fellow musicians know how to support it. . He's a splendid rhythm player in his chosen field. Exile is probably the best example. Keith is not pretentious as a guitarist, that's what makes him admirable as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-02 16:24 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: July 2, 2019 16:31

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
liddas
Quote
Redhotcarpet
They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

So what?

They also did a sponge job of a plethora of blues, soul and reggae artists, chuck berry, the meters, etc etc etc

The result is that in the music of the Stones there is a little bit of everything. It's the mix that makes them original

C

They invited the unknown Chuck Berry to the studio, recorded him snd used his material in their songs?

The Stones did not use Ry's material in their own songs. Keith included in his playing a couple of licks that he heard Ry play, that's it!

He did what just every musician in the world does.

Should we count how many guitarists included Hendrix licks in their game?

And why limit ourselves to the guitarist?

Where do you think that Ian Stewart's boogie came from? Or Bill's bass lines.

Are Fats Domino, Johnnie Jonson, Count Basie, Willie Dixon (in his capacity of bassist), James Jamerson etc. credited in any way?

And does it really matter where one hears something for the first time?

C

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: July 2, 2019 16:34


Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 2, 2019 16:45

Quote
dcba
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Tunings is not what I was talking about, I mean actual riffs, licks etc.

Do you think that Keith in 1969 (the best creative year of his entire life) needed to borrow riffs from someone else?

(this is not a personal attack this is a genuine question I ask...).

Ask Keith, 1969 is the year he records Ry. 1968 is the year Mick works with Ry on Memo. Miller also helped of course. Here’s the blueprint for YCAGWYW:
video: [youtu.be] Listen to the guitar lick. Nothing wrong in that but yes great artists steal. It’s a method. Dunno why this upsets fans to this day.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 2, 2019 18:32

Quote
Koen

Agreed. Allan Holdsworth invented the wheel grinning smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 2, 2019 20:36

The stealing (and changing the goods into something new and different) is really a form of art. I tried that with a Stones song once. Took a lick, changed the rhythm and it sounded pretty good actually.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 2, 2019 20:42

Quote
Redhotcarpet


Ask Keith, 1969 is the year he records Ry. 1968 is the year Mick works with Ry on Memo. Miller also helped of course. Here’s the blueprint for YCAGWYW:
video: [youtu.be] Listen to the guitar lick. Nothing wrong in that but yes great artists steal. It’s a method. Dunno why this upsets fans to this day.

You are forgetting that Keith is shown playing something in Brian's Courtfield Road flat in January 1967 that sounds like the beginnings of YCAGWYW.

But, it's two common as muck chords used by millions anyway.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 2, 2019 21:30

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Redhotcarpet


Ask Keith, 1969 is the year he records Ry. 1968 is the year Mick works with Ry on Memo. Miller also helped of course. Here’s the blueprint for YCAGWYW:
video: [youtu.be] Listen to the guitar lick. Nothing wrong in that but yes great artists steal. It’s a method. Dunno why this upsets fans to this day.

You are forgetting that Keith is shown playing something in Brian's Courtfield Road flat in January 1967 that sounds like the beginnings of YCAGWYW.

But, it's two common as muck chords used by millions anyway.

That little lick on the piano is very similar to what Keith plays on You can't. Which is alright. Im not saying it's wrong.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Christiaan ()
Date: July 2, 2019 22:43

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Open tunings go back as far as the 19th century, the Banjo. That's were the open tunings on guitars come from. My guess would be that Brian and Keith just were the right guys at the right time to discover it when the Blues hit the UK in the early 6-tees. Keith was the most successful because he started writing songs with it that became big hits. Brian was left in the blue, that's for sure.

Open tunings exist for as long as people stringed gut over a wooden soundboard. On guitars and its predecessors, perfect fifth tunings and open tunings were more standard than standard tuning -many classical pieces from the 1800's were written in open G for example. Five string standard tuning ADGBE was used for larger sized guitar instruments from the 1600's on, but wasn't the standard until the development of the 6 string Spanish guitar in the early 1820's.


The standard banjo tuning is Standard C, GCGBD but many tunings are applied. Open G wasn't really used until the invention of the modern 5-string banjo and its use in bluegrass since the 1940's.

Mathijs


I agree, you can go back as far as Renaissance Lutenist John Dowland or Thomas Robinson , for example.

Our fellow Dutchman Jan Akkerman could write a book about it. He's going to play Sticky Fingers next year. I wonder how he'll approach Sister Morphine i.e. Ry Cooder smoking smiley

I bet Mathijs can write a book as well! Unbelievable what a knowledge!!

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Christiaan ()
Date: July 2, 2019 22:46

I’m not a musician at all, just like music, but I’m fascinated by all of the knowledge from guys like Mathijs.
I know he’s a good guitar player as well! Are you still playing in a band Mathijs? Probably no longer e in a Stones cover band



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-02 23:02 by Christiaan.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 2, 2019 22:56

Quote
Christiaan
I’m not a musician at all, just like music, but I’m fascinated by all of the knowledge from guys like Mathijs.
I know he’d a good guitar player as well! Are you still playing in a band Mathijs? Probably no longer e in a Stones cover band

You must have missed this? smiling smiley

[youtu.be]

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Christiaan ()
Date: July 2, 2019 23:01

No, not missed it, but this was 2 years back in the Waterhole in Amsterdam. I was not there though.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 3, 2019 00:17

Quote
Christiaan
No, not missed it, but this was 2 years back in the Waterhole in Amsterdam. I was not there though.

This was last year in London.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: MelBelli ()
Date: July 3, 2019 00:54

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Redhotcarpet


Ask Keith, 1969 is the year he records Ry. 1968 is the year Mick works with Ry on Memo. Miller also helped of course. Here’s the blueprint for YCAGWYW:
video: [youtu.be] Listen to the guitar lick. Nothing wrong in that but yes great artists steal. It’s a method. Dunno why this upsets fans to this day.

You are forgetting that Keith is shown playing something in Brian's Courtfield Road flat in January 1967 that sounds like the beginnings of YCAGWYW.

But, it's two common as muck chords used by millions anyway.

That little lick on the piano is very similar to what Keith plays on You can't. Which is alright. Im not saying it's wrong.

Any resemblance there has a lot more to do with Jimmy Miller than Ry Cooder. Then there’s the fact that Mick was the primary composer of YCAGWYW.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 3, 2019 01:38

Quote
Christiaan
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Open tunings go back as far as the 19th century, the Banjo. That's were the open tunings on guitars come from. My guess would be that Brian and Keith just were the right guys at the right time to discover it when the Blues hit the UK in the early 6-tees. Keith was the most successful because he started writing songs with it that became big hits. Brian was left in the blue, that's for sure.

Open tunings exist for as long as people stringed gut over a wooden soundboard. On guitars and its predecessors, perfect fifth tunings and open tunings were more standard than standard tuning -many classical pieces from the 1800's were written in open G for example. Five string standard tuning ADGBE was used for larger sized guitar instruments from the 1600's on, but wasn't the standard until the development of the 6 string Spanish guitar in the early 1820's.


The standard banjo tuning is Standard C, GCGBD but many tunings are applied. Open G wasn't really used until the invention of the modern 5-string banjo and its use in bluegrass since the 1940's.

Mathijs


I agree, you can go back as far as Renaissance Lutenist John Dowland or Thomas Robinson , for example.

Our fellow Dutchman Jan Akkerman could write a book about it. He's going to play Sticky Fingers next year. I wonder how he'll approach Sister Morphine i.e. Ry Cooder smoking smiley

I bet Mathijs can write a book as well! Unbelievable what a knowledge!!


You can do it as well. Give it a try : [www.google.com]

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 3, 2019 11:29

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
Christiaan
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Open tunings go back as far as the 19th century, the Banjo. That's were the open tunings on guitars come from. My guess would be that Brian and Keith just were the right guys at the right time to discover it when the Blues hit the UK in the early 6-tees. Keith was the most successful because he started writing songs with it that became big hits. Brian was left in the blue, that's for sure.

Open tunings exist for as long as people stringed gut over a wooden soundboard. On guitars and its predecessors, perfect fifth tunings and open tunings were more standard than standard tuning -many classical pieces from the 1800's were written in open G for example. Five string standard tuning ADGBE was used for larger sized guitar instruments from the 1600's on, but wasn't the standard until the development of the 6 string Spanish guitar in the early 1820's.


The standard banjo tuning is Standard C, GCGBD but many tunings are applied. Open G wasn't really used until the invention of the modern 5-string banjo and its use in bluegrass since the 1940's.

Mathijs


I agree, you can go back as far as Renaissance Lutenist John Dowland or Thomas Robinson , for example.

Our fellow Dutchman Jan Akkerman could write a book about it. He's going to play Sticky Fingers next year. I wonder how he'll approach Sister Morphine i.e. Ry Cooder smoking smiley

I bet Mathijs can write a book as well! Unbelievable what a knowledge!!


You can do it as well. Give it a try : [www.google.com]

With Google and Wikipedia you have to browse through all the crap first, what a load of bollocks is written there.

Mathijs

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 3, 2019 12:17

Quote
Mathijs

With Google and Wikipedia you have to browse through all the crap first, what a load of bollocks is written there.

Mathijs

Yup, to separate write from wrong, that's the art.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 3, 2019 13:06

Quote
Mathijs

With Google and Wikipedia you have to browse through all the crap first, what a load of bollocks is written there.

Mathijs

Like trying to hold back the sea.

Editing in corrections is near pointless as someone will be along soon after to add in some utter nonsense that is easy disprove.

angry smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 3, 2019 13:25

Nobody forces you to read anything. cool smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 3, 2019 13:27

Quote
MelBelli
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Redhotcarpet


Ask Keith, 1969 is the year he records Ry. 1968 is the year Mick works with Ry on Memo. Miller also helped of course. Here’s the blueprint for YCAGWYW:
video: [youtu.be] Listen to the guitar lick. Nothing wrong in that but yes great artists steal. It’s a method. Dunno why this upsets fans to this day.

You are forgetting that Keith is shown playing something in Brian's Courtfield Road flat in January 1967 that sounds like the beginnings of YCAGWYW.

But, it's two common as muck chords used by millions anyway.

That little lick on the piano is very similar to what Keith plays on You can't. Which is alright. Im not saying it's wrong.

Any resemblance there has a lot more to do with Jimmy Miller than Ry Cooder. Then there’s the fact that Mick was the primary composer of YCAGWYW.
yes that’s what i said.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 4, 2019 11:10

Quote
liddas
Quote
Redhotcarpet
They did a sponge job on Cooder. But of course we as fans should pretend that never happened.

So what?

They also did a sponge job of a plethora of blues, soul and reggae artists, chuck berry, the meters, etc etc etc

The result is that in the music of the Stones there is a little bit of everything. It's the mix that makes them original

C

thumbs up

Exactly so .

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 4, 2019 12:17

Using/stealing and changing songs is one thing, inviting unknown musicians to a studio and using them is something else (and very common). It’s business.

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