Tell Me :  Talk
Talk about your favorite band. 

Previous page Next page First page IORR home

For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.

Goto Page: 1234Next
Current Page: 1 of 4
was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: guitarbastard ()
Date: July 1, 2019 09:52

up to now i always thought ry cooder introduced keith to the open-tunings. but in paul tynkas biography of brian it says that brian showed keith the open tunings.
so i'm a bit confused...

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 10:13

Brian, being a very avid & academic student of the blues from the outset, may well have been in front of Keith in unravelling the open tunings used by the old Blues men... and may likely have shared this knowledge with him .

Folks have also claimed that Keith nicked open tunings from Ry Cooder ...
and I'm sure Keith learnt things from his playing too.

But the evolution of the open G tuning as employed by Keith was the result of his absorbing many influences down the years.

It's the way musicians have always learnt and passed things on.

[Good job too . Imagine if it had all never been passed on confused smiley]

[Edited umpteen times for fingers refusing to type the right letters in the right order grinning smiley]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-01 10:20 by Spud.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 10:26

Brian probably showed him how he played stuff like Little Red Rooster, which is is open G with six strings. But that was slide stuff.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: July 1, 2019 11:22

Yes but no he took all he could get from Cooder. And that means style, riffs, licks.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 1, 2019 11:48

Richards was aware of open tunings way before he met Ry Cooder, through Brian Jones and the countless blues recordings they listened to. Keith has stated that he learned a lot from Jesse Ed Davis and Taj Mahal when they hung out in 1968. The thing he took from Cooder was that he could use open tunings for more than slide or rhythm guitar, but that you can play all these riffs and embellishments as well. Listen to the acoustic guitar of Downtown Suzie, or Ry's slide guitar on Memo to Turner, and all the licks are there that Keith based Honky Tonk Women, Loving Cup and Tumbling Dice on.

Then again, he did use many of of these already before he started using open G. Things like the riff of Nervous Breakdown or the the main riff on Monkey Man are quite similar to what he would later do in open G.

Mathijs

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: July 1, 2019 11:50

You also need to bear in mind that Paul Trynka's book attributes everything to Brian's influence!
I think I may remember Keith saying somewhere that Brian used open tunings for slide (and no doubt Keith learned how to do it, but Brian was the slide player in the early Stones) but it wasn't until Ry Cooder that he realised you could use it for other things.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 12:54

Open tunings go back as far as the 19th century, the Banjo. That's were the open tunings on guitars come from. My guess would be that Brian and Keith just were the right guys at the right time to discover it when the Blues hit the UK in the early 6-tees. Keith was the most successful because he started writing songs with it that became big hits. Brian was left in the blue, that's for sure.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 13:06

Open G with 5 strings is a banjo tuning .

But It confuses me no end when I occasionally try to play one because the D is effectively then the bottom string of 4 ...and I have to be careful not to fret the wrong strings when forming chord shapes.grinning smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: July 1, 2019 14:10

Quote
Mathijs
Richards was aware of open tunings way before he met Ry Cooder, through Brian Jones and the countless blues recordings they listened to. Keith has stated that he learned a lot from Jesse Ed Davis and Taj Mahal when they hung out in 1968. The thing he took from Cooder was that he could use open tunings for more than slide or rhythm guitar, but that you can play all these riffs and embellishments as well. Listen to the acoustic guitar of Downtown Suzie, or Ry's slide guitar on Memo to Turner, and all the licks are there that Keith based Honky Tonk Women, Loving Cup and Tumbling Dice on.

Then again, he did use many of of these already before he started using open G. Things like the riff of Nervous Breakdown or the the main riff on Monkey Man are quite similar to what he would later do in open G.

Mathijs

What he said. thumbs up

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: July 1, 2019 15:47

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Open tunings go back as far as the 19th century, the Banjo. That's were the open tunings on guitars come from. My guess would be that Brian and Keith just were the right guys at the right time to discover it when the Blues hit the UK in the early 6-tees. Keith was the most successful because he started writing songs with it that became big hits. Brian was left in the blue, that's for sure.

Open tunings exist for as long as people stringed gut over a wooden soundboard. On guitars and its predecessors, perfect fifth tunings and open tunings were more standard than standard tuning -many classical pieces from the 1800's were written in open G for example. Five string standard tuning ADGBE was used for larger sized guitar instruments from the 1600's on, but wasn't the standard until the development of the 6 string Spanish guitar in the early 1820's.

The standard banjo tuning is Standard C, GCGBD but many tunings are applied. Open G wasn't really used until the invention of the modern 5-string banjo and its use in bluegrass since the 1940's.

Mathijs

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 15:53

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Open tunings go back as far as the 19th century, the Banjo. That's were the open tunings on guitars come from. My guess would be that Brian and Keith just were the right guys at the right time to discover it when the Blues hit the UK in the early 6-tees. Keith was the most successful because he started writing songs with it that became big hits. Brian was left in the blue, that's for sure.

Open tunings exist for as long as people stringed gut over a wooden soundboard. On guitars and its predecessors, perfect fifth tunings and open tunings were more standard than standard tuning -many classical pieces from the 1800's were written in open G for example. Five string standard tuning ADGBE was used for larger sized guitar instruments from the 1600's on, but wasn't the standard until the development of the 6 string Spanish guitar in the early 1820's.


The standard banjo tuning is Standard C, GCGBD but many tunings are applied. Open G wasn't really used until the invention of the modern 5-string banjo and its use in bluegrass since the 1940's.

Mathijs


I agree, you can go back as far as Renaissance Lutenist John Dowland or Thomas Robinson , for example.

Our fellow Dutchman Jan Akkerman could write a book about it. He's going to play Sticky Fingers next year. I wonder how he'll approach Sister Morphine i.e. Ry Cooder smoking smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-01 17:45 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 16:17

Whenever I try to use the C tuning for a banjo..I get really confused !

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: usetobesampeg ()
Date: July 1, 2019 17:26

I always thought Keith said it was touring with Don Everly that he really became aware of Open Tuning,
[waddywachtelinfo.com]

[www.fenderforum.com]

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: TumblinDice76 ()
Date: July 1, 2019 17:34

Keith in his book credits Graham Parsons for teaching him that.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 17:48

It was "nashville" tuning that Keith got from Gram Parsons.

That's where you string a guitar with the octave strings from a 12 string set only ... to give a delicate acoustic wash behind the sound ...a bit like adding a 12 string but without the additional bloom taking up room in the mix.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 17:51

Don't shoot the piano player.

[www.newyorker.com]


"And before long, the Rolling Stones were collecting royalties for “Honky Tonk Women,” which sounds precisely like a Ry Cooder song and absolutely nothing like any other song ever produced by the Rolling Stones in more than forty years. According to Richards in his recent autobiography, Cooder showed him the open G tuning which became his mainstay and accounts for the full-bodied chordal declarations that characterize songs such as “Gimme Shelter,” “Jumpin’ Jack Flash,” “Start Me Up,” and “Brown Sugar.” The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-01 17:53 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: July 1, 2019 18:00

In thinking about open tunings - did Keith ever use drop d tuning - I can not think of a song from that early period in the 60's . Many rock artists used drop d tuning in many songs and still do today.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 18:09

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Don't shoot the piano player.

The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two".

Rather exaggerating an already chippy position, often adopted over the years by Ry Cooder fans.

I love Ry Cooder....and credit where it's due .

But he's essentially a wonderful guitar player and....a wonderful guitar player .

He's never written anything comparable with the above mentioned songs... which apparently rip off his style.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 18:31

Quote
Spud
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Don't shoot the piano player.

The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two".

Rather exaggerating an already chippy position, often adopted over the years by Ry Cooder fans.

I love Ry Cooder....and credit where it's due .

But he's essentially a wonderful guitar player and....a wonderful guitar player .

He's never written anything comparable with the above mentioned songs... which apparently rip off his style.

I'm not a particular Ry Cooder fan, but I think his slide on MFT and Sister Morphine is one of the best things he ever played.
I wonder if Jan Akkerman, who's quite a very good player is going to copy Ry when he's performing the Sticky Fingers album with a band next year. I asked him on facebook and he gave it a "like", so I'm all ears.smiling smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: July 1, 2019 18:46

What about open E?

E - B - E - G# - B - E

Did the Stones use that on any tunes?

.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 18:51

Yes...Check out Beggars Banquet ..its all over it .

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: July 1, 2019 18:59

that's what I thought

.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: MelBelli ()
Date: July 1, 2019 19:03

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Don't shoot the piano player.

[www.newyorker.com]


"And before long, the Rolling Stones were collecting royalties for “Honky Tonk Women,” which sounds precisely like a Ry Cooder song and absolutely nothing like any other song ever produced by the Rolling Stones in more than forty years. According to Richards in his recent autobiography, Cooder showed him the open G tuning which became his mainstay and accounts for the full-bodied chordal declarations that characterize songs such as “Gimme Shelter,” “Jumpin’ Jack Flash,” “Start Me Up,” and “Brown Sugar.” The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two".

Wow, that’s some bad analysis. The scenario in which Mick says “perhaps you should see this” is laughably pat. JJF and Gimme Shelter, of course, are not in open-G. Those riffs have nothing to do with the licks Keith copped from Ry Cooder. My feeling has always been that the essence of the “Keith Riff” is the barred first finger and the “-sus” hammer-on with second and third fingers. That was present on “19th Nervous Breakdown” (and even, in a different way, on “Route 66”).

As Mathijs indicates, I think what Keith took from Cooder was the idea of the pedal-tone fills played with third and first strings in open-G — as on the intro of HTW and the fill played at :25.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 19:18

Time to sue the NewYorker. angry smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-07-01 19:44 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: July 1, 2019 19:19

Quote
MelBelli
Those riffs have nothing to do with the licks Keith copped from Ry Cooder. My feeling has always been that the essence of the “Keith Riff” is the barred first finger and the “-sus” hammer-on with second and third fingers. That was present on “19th Nervous Breakdown” (and even, in a different way, on “Route 66”).

As Mathijs indicates, I think what Keith took from Cooder was the idea of the pedal-tone fills played with third and first strings in open-G — as on the intro of HTW and the fill played at :25.

thumbs up

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: July 1, 2019 20:08

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Our fellow Dutchman Jan Akkerman could write a book about it. He's going to play Sticky Fingers next year. I wonder how he'll approach Sister Morphine i.e. Ry Cooder smoking smiley

He's probably going to noodle the crap out of it. Of course with a big 'look ma, no hands' smirk.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 20:44

Quote
Koen
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Our fellow Dutchman Jan Akkerman could write a book about it. He's going to play Sticky Fingers next year. I wonder how he'll approach Sister Morphine i.e. Ry Cooder

He's probably going to noodle the crap out of it. Of course with a big 'look ma, no hands' smirk.

I hope he takes it serious and plays some decent slide. I have never heard him do that before. He might be in trouble.spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 21:58

Quote
Spud
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Don't shoot the piano player.

The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two".

Rather exaggerating an already chippy position, often adopted over the years by Ry Cooder fans.

I love Ry Cooder....and credit where it's due .

But he's essentially a wonderful guitar player and....a wonderful guitar player .

He's never written anything comparable with the above mentioned songs... which apparently rip off his style.

The HTW-riff stems from the TSMR-sessions

GS in open G sounds interesting smiling smiley

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Date: July 1, 2019 22:10

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Spud
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Don't shoot the piano player.

The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two".

Rather exaggerating an already chippy position, often adopted over the years by Ry Cooder fans.

I love Ry Cooder....and credit where it's due .

But he's essentially a wonderful guitar player and....a wonderful guitar player .

He's never written anything comparable with the above mentioned songs... which apparently rip off his style.

The HTW-riff stems from the TSMR-sessions

GS in open G sounds interesting smiling smiley

The original in open E is the most colourful. Standard tuning (with Taylor) a bit more balanced. Open G I have no examples.

Re: was it brian who showed keith the open tunings?
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: July 2, 2019 00:56

I read somewhere that also Gram Parsons showed Keith a number of alternative tunings but I don't know (or can't recall) which they would have been or if any of them was used on any Stones song.

Goto Page: 1234Next
Current Page: 1 of 4


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Online Users

Guests: 421
Record Number of Users: 184 on May 17, 2018 22:46
Record Number of Guests: 3948 on December 7, 2015 15:07

Previous page Next page First page IORR home