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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:25 by His Majesty.

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Doxa
Yeah. Andrew most likely didn't have any longer a first hand knowledge of Brian's whereabouts, but is relying on second hand ones, like so many others (like us). Surely he might have heard something at the time we don't have access to, but still. So there is a lot of speculation going on, and like the ones about Brian's potential upcoming musical directions, have the conditional that the physical side or reality of the story doesn't matter.
- Doxa

After Oldham left the Stones he still was a force in the London music scene, through Immediate Records and through managing Small faces and forming Humble Pie, both having connections to Brian. And he kept close friendship to Anita and Marianne, even living with them and Mick Taylor in Keith's house in New York in the early 1980's.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Doxa
Yeah. Andrew most likely didn't have any longer a first hand knowledge of Brian's whereabouts, but is relying on second hand ones, like so many others (like us). Surely he might have heard something at the time we don't have access to, but still. So there is a lot of speculation going on, and like the ones about Brian's potential upcoming musical directions, have the conditional that the physical side or reality of the story doesn't matter.
- Doxa

After Oldham left the Stones he still was a force in the London music scene, through Immediate Records and through managing Small faces and forming Humble Pie, both having connections to Brian. And he kept close friendship to Anita and Marianne, even living with them and Mick Taylor in Keith's house in New York in the early 1980's.

Mathijs

Yeah. So one could say ALO had some very good second-hand sources. Taking the strong and 'immediate' (sic) Humble Pie connection, interesting that he did not say anything in his speculations about Brian's upcoming musical possibilities about a possible involvement with them - something I recall speculated. Could be the most obvious reason: there weren't anything else but some brief personal connection between Brian and the upcoming band, not like he would be a part of them or something.

- Doxs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-25 12:27 by Doxa.

Mick Taylor lived with Anita and Marianne in Keith’s house in NewYork in the 1980s? At the same time? In separate living quarters? Was that the house Anita was with the young man who killer himself with a gun in Westchester NY?

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:26 by His Majesty.

Never read this before HM, thanks. And in a less important or extreme way, history repeated itself regarding the fifth Stone.

And Ron Wood likely was the smartest from a social point of view, on the long term.

Just to generalise the topic.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-25 21:42 by TheflyingDutchman.

That was a great read! Like a direct time travel to the feelings of those days (and like a good reminder what a big, shocking news Brian's departure was at the time. Africa... ). And, to cheer a bit the sad tune, Mick's comment about their reputation is priceless. Still nowhere near the end... So right you were, Mick!

Thanks, His Majesty!

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-25 22:52 by Doxa.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:26 by His Majesty.

So you have me revisiting my Chess recordings , and after re-reading this entire thread (to make sure you hadn’t already answered this!) I have some doubts as to what I thought previously: you mention, as does Wikipedia, that the other version of Time Is On My Side was done in London (Regent) yet my copy of Chess recordings have them recording a version of Time during the June 11 ‘64 Chess sessions which Brian would’ve most likely been on (as well as the Nov. 8 recording)..

I’m now wondering if this was thrown on my recording (which is an unofficial release of Chess stuff) mistakenly? I’ve always been a bit suspicious of this list because it also has a version of Satisfaction claiming to be from Chess May 10th ‘65 — which many say does not exist, including reaching out to Andrew Loog Oldham on twitter regarding this (his answer wasn’t exactly definitive, but seemed to indicate “no”), as well as speaking with people at the Chess museum.

I know this stuff is in various places on the internet and isn’t specifically Brian Jones related, but as someone really diving into this would you mind clarifying? Thanks again for your fantastic contributions to the Stones’ world!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-26 18:43 by snoopy2.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:26 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
The Satsfaction on there is probably the audio from Shindig where they played a version of Satisfaction that was different to the official single. Because it includes harmonica, this is often assumed to be from first attempt at Chess. But, I think, without checking, it's actually a special recording, along with others songs, done for the show to give the impression they were playing live.

I think so too, but was it based on their early, unreleased, arrangement? I guess we'll never really know unless the studio recording surfaces.

Thanks for the Time Is On My Side clarification, those scallywags duped me (as Grand Moff Tarkin would say, "They lied!")

I just quickly compared the Satisfactions and at first listen they sound different (Jagger's vocal has some nuanced differences and the bass seems to come in differently, tho that might be that I have trouble hearing it at all on my version)

Anyway, I don't believe it's from Chess as too many out there say no, but do appreciate your work on all this HM! Now back to Brian

great grand moff tarkin reference

you may fire off another one when ready

Hi His Majesty, wondering if you may have further info regarding the Alexis Korner biography by Harry Shapiro. In it, he mentions Alexis organized rehearsals at Cotchford Farm after Brian left the band. Some of the musicians mentioned were the late Vince Crane, Carl Palmer, John Mayall, Mitch Mitchell and Micky Waller.
Do you have any info as to how these sessions went, was anything recorded, etc?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:27 by His Majesty.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:27 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
Eye Magazine - March 1969.

"Mick was ringing me up before Beggars Banquet, asking if I had any more songs, and I said I had a couple. He said, 'I spoke to Brian, he's got one as well.' So I thought, That's great, because they're giving us the opportunity, it isn't like a closed shop anymore. So we got them ready, Brian had his and I had mine, and then you come in to the studio the first night and Keith say's 'I've got a song,' so, alright let's do it, and then Mick's got one. The next day they've got two more. The day after that each has another one ready. You go on like that, still waiting to record yours when they run out. But, ah, they didn't run out. Before you looked round, there was an album done. So it was really a closed shop again."
- Bill Wyman.

I didn't realized that this Wyman quote I've been familiar with, was so old, dating to March 1969. I guess it sounded pretty critical as a public comment back then.

I wonder if Mick was making notes, since next month they would try Bill's "Sweet Lucy" aka "Downtown Suzie" (although some sources claim that it was already recorded in May 1968, but that doesn't sound likely).

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-27 13:43 by Doxa.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:27 by His Majesty.

Bill was probably on a roll after this, and hoped to get more songs on albums

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DandelionPowderman
Bill was probably on a roll after this, and hoped to get more songs on albums

Why didn’t they just say In Another Land by The Rolling Stones and not Bill Wyman.It wasn’t a solo song since Wyman was in the band and the band played on it and put it on the band’s album. Almost like Mick and Keith saying we are the only writers for the band.

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His Majesty
Eye Magazine - March 1969.

"Mick was ringing me up before Beggars Banquet, asking if I had any more songs, and I said I had a couple. He said, 'I spoke to Brian, he's got one as well.' So I thought, That's great, because they're giving us the opportunity, it isn't like a closed shop anymore. So we got them ready, Brian had his and I had mine, and then you come in to the studio the first night and Keith say's 'I've got a song,' so, alright let's do it, and then Mick's got one. The next day they've got two more. The day after that each has another one ready. You go on like that, still waiting to record yours when they run out. But, ah, they didn't run out. Before you looked round, there was an album done. So it was really a closed shop again."
- Bill Wyman.

Nice quote. It sounds much like George Harrisons complaint that they never worked on his songs. It was only in later years that he acknowledged the fact that he was in a band with two of the most prolific writers of all time.

When you're churning out tracks that end up on Beggars and LIB on a daily basis who would want to work on a Bill Wyman song...

Mathijs

Yeah, Mick and Keith were in the height of their creative powers at the time, so no wonder Bill's offerings were neglected.

But that said, Bill's never seemed to get over of that. It looks like that it was the BANQUET sessions after he lost his biggest interest to contribute to the band more. Or like accepting the role of being nothing but a bass player in a Mick and Keith show doing his bit when asked and out of obligation. That of Brian falling down seemingly had a role in changing the dynamics of the band, since Bill belonged more to Brian's corner in the band. Brian, after-all, as long he was able somehow to contribute in the band (until, say, for his second arrest in 1968), he was a strong force in the band whose opinions and doings mattered, no matter how unreliable and 'difficult' he might have been. He was almost like a counter force or last resistance against Mick and Keith's total dominance. When he was gone, there would be no force like him in the band Mick and Keith should somehow take into consideration. A pretty telling example of that is the incident when Keith nastily said to Ronnie when he had suggested something: "Who the hell you think you are? Brian Jones?"

Bill's comments about the quality of Stones music from BEGGARS BANQUET on, has also been a bit bitter-like, and like it has been difficult for him to accept that the Stones were doing pretty amazing stuff. In STONE ALONE he sounds like busy appraising the upcoming bands like Led Zeppelin, and belittlening the Stones output. But he always sound being so proud of their earlier stuff.

But I guess that is pretty human after all. He was a Rolling Stone from the beginning, not someone looking and judging the band from the outside, and things looked different from the inside...

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-27 19:09 by Doxa.

Bill certainly never gave up writing though. Remember, he released his first solo album 'Monkey Grip' as early as 1974... and it was moderately successful too, reaching the Top 40 album charts in both the UK and Australia.

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Doxa
Yeah, Mick and Keith were in the height of their creative powers at the time, so no wonder Bill's offerings were neglected.

But that said, Bill's never seemed to get over of that. It looks like that it was the BANQUET sessions after he lost his biggest interest to contribute to the band more. Or like accepting the role of being nothing but a bass player in a Mick and Keith show doing his bit out of obligation. That of Brian falling down seemingly had a role in changing the dynamics of the band, since Bill belonged more like to Brian's corner in the band. Brian, after-all, as long he was able somehow to contribute in the band (until, say, for his second arrest in 1968), he was a strong force in the band whose opinions and doings mattered, no matter how unreliable and 'difficult' he might have been. He was almost like a counter force or last resistance against Mick and Keith's total dominance. When he was gone, there would be no force like him in the band Mick and Keith should somehow take into consideration. A pretty telling example of that is the incident when Keith nastily said to Ronnie when he had suggested something: "Who the hell you think you are? Brian Jones?"

Bill's comments about the quality of Stones music from BEGGARS BANQUET on, has also been a bit bitter-like, and like it has been difficult for him to accept that the Stones were doing pretty amazing stuff. In STONE ALONE he sounds like busy appraising the upcoming bands like Led Zeppelin, and belittlening the Stones output. But he always sound being so proud of their earlier stuff.

But I guess that is pretty human after all. He was a Rolling Stone from the beginning, not someone looking and judging the band from the outside, and things looked different from the inside...

- Doxa

I also think that the Stones becoming jet set global rockstars didn't help as well, with first the move to France and then everybody being scattered around the globe. Wyman slowly went from being in integral member of the band to a real outsider. He said he didn't speak to Keith for just about the entire 1970's...It was the money that kept him from leaving.

Mathijs

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His Majesty
I think some of those are not people who went.

It seems nothing was recorded. One of the people who did jam, their name escapes me at moment, said the jams were aimless with Brian sporadically coming and going from the music room, playing a bit of soprano saxophone, a bit of organ, but he wouldn't play guitar.

Mayall visited, but more as a friend. He attempted to play with Brian though, but said his timing etc was off. He also said Brian was using a walking stick!?

Some of this is discussed towards the end of Paul Trynka's book "Brian Jones," which is one of my favorite reads on the Stones/Jones yet I seldom see referenced by anyone.. It does paint a picture of conflicting accounts, and also adds the name Nick South (with Alexis) as being there. It is a bit sad and difficult to read at times, now that I'm no longer a teen thriving on rock n' roll mayhem and can see the human being and difficulties of substance abuse, brain damage, depression. One of the saddest bits is Bobbie Korner supposedly saying 'how could someone who founded The Rolling Stones be left so alone and vulnerable' after spending time at Brian's with Alexis and his band towards the end.. Mayall is referenced (as you mention) saying Brian was 'very wobbly' and his 'hands and his brain weren't matching up' and was in no condition to put music together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-27 20:25 by snoopy2.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:27 by His Majesty.

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:28 by His Majesty.

Bill wrote the riff for JJ Flash, arguably their best song.Play with Fire and Paint it Black were group compositions. Does Brian deserve any credit for songs like We Love You, Ruby Tuesday, 2000 Light Years? Mick Taylor, for some songs like Moonlight Mile? I know even if they do, Mick and Keith wrote basically 95 percent of the songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-29 01:16 by Taylor1.

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His Majesty
I hear nothing from Bill that is on par with Mick and Keith's writing. However, I'd argue that, on occasion, that George Harrison did manage to reach the level of Paul and John.

With the exceptions of '2000 Light Years From Home' and 'She's A Rainbow', imo 'In Another Land' is as good or better than anything else on TSMR. I'd certainly rather listen to that than 'Within You Without You'!

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-03 08:28 by His Majesty.