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Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: April 25, 2019 14:42

Lots of good information
[youtu.be]

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: April 26, 2019 16:30

Very nice overview, which needs a (no big deal) modest correction.
Brian's Harmony Stratotone didn't surface in 2007, but in 2000, when the then owner Wilson contacted a Dutch fanclub magazine to find out what realistic value the guitar had. Supported by Wilson's photos and very early days photos of Brian playing that guitar, the guitar was historically reviewed in one of the magazines of that year.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: snoopy2 ()
Date: April 26, 2019 20:27

Really enjoyed this, thanks! Couple questions for you super-knowledgeable Brian Jones folks:

Anyone able to post a list of Brian's guitars and their known/unknown whereabouts? All I've heard is Bill Wyman owns one or two (when I went to Exhibitionism in Nashville I was bummed to find that one of Wyman's Jones guitars that was supposed to be there didn't make it from overseas)

2nd question: For those who are tuned into this kind of thing (I'm not) what are the best ways to determine which guitar line is Brian's on Stones' tracks? I've been listening to them since early 70s and seem to always get it wrong (As kids we went by the rule that anything "lead" was Brian and anything "rhythm" was Keith, as time passed we realized we had no idea who we were hearing)

Thanks

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: April 27, 2019 10:08

Stu gave Brian’s Gibson Firebird to Peter Swales from the Stones Office.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: snoopy2 ()
Date: April 27, 2019 21:48

Quote
paulspendel
Stu gave Brian’s Gibson Firebird to Peter Swales from the Stones Office.

Thanks for this.. Would this be the Firebird VII mentioned here?

(I dug in iorr's past and found this which answers my question about the known whereabouts of his guitars. The Goldtop mentioned is the one that didn't make it from overseas for the Nashville Exhibitionism)

Quote

:
How can you not agree on facts? What a silly remark. I know it is more romantic to believe everything was stolen from him, but that's just not true.

The Harmony Stratone has shown up in the hands of a dentist friend and put up for auction. The Vox Teardrop and Gretsch Anniversary given away by Brian and now property of the Hardrock Cafe. Then the remaining guitars: most likely not 'owned' by Brian, but given or loaned to the Stones, just as any big band received instruments as promotion. The Casino was stolen on tour in Germany in '66. The ES-330 with nickel plated P90's has been used by Keith extensively, and shown up on the '69 tour and during recordings in '70. The LP Goldtop is now owned by Bill Wyman. The two sunburst Hummingbirds used since '65 can be seen in the hands of the Stones until at least '75 (Angie clip for example). The blonde Hummingbird is most likely the same Hummingbird as Keith played at Nellcote, and which Jagger has played since the early 90's. The 12-string Rickenbacker has been used, according to Taylor, by both Richards and Taylor in the early 70's. The non-reverse Firebird has shown up in the hands of Taylor in late 69, early 70, also indicating these where band instruments more than Jones's. At least one Vox Bijou was stolen during a tour and replaced, I don't know where the second one went. His Mellotron was reportedly shipped to his father.

Did I miss any instrument? Reportedly the Stones have various warehouses and storage rooms all over the world where they keep piles and piles of equipment and instruments, and they are also know for giving away much when they are not interested in them anymore. Also, a lot is stolen from hotel and dressing rooms over the years. But I wouldn't be surprised that when Keith opens his vaults hundreds of guitars fall out, including many associated with Brian, like the missing Firebird VII.

Mathijs
Edit: from another post I understand the Cleveland Hall of Fame museum has a Bijou that 'might'have belonged to the Stones.

The Firebird VII has shown up as well. It is in the hands of a British collector who also owns Keith's Hyde Park Flying V. The Firebird is refinished back to its original sunburst, and played extensively throughout the 70's.

This means that litereally all of Brian's guitar and instruments have shown up by now.

The same thing by the way for most of Keith Richards guitars that where used in the 1967 to 1975 period and either lost or stolen. All but the Ampeg Dan Armstrongs have shown up in the last few years.

Mathijs
Quote




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-27 21:49 by snoopy2.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 15:26

What Mathijs said there is the essentially right.

...

The gear that was specifically Brian's...

Mega loaded collector Ali Zayeri owns the Harmony Stratotone and loaned it out for Exhibitionism.

Who has Brian's Harmony acoustic (used during 1963 - early 1964) is unknown to general public.

Who has Brian's Gretsch Double Anniversary is unknown to general public.

The Hard Rock Cafe owns Brian's teardrop Vox.

The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame displayed Brian's first acoustic dulcimer used on Aftermath. Credited to an anonymous contributor.

Brian had a total of 4 Vox Bijou/electric dulcimers. The first was stolen. The last one is still owned by the stones and can be seen at Exhibitionism. The where about of the other 2 is unknown to general public.

Brian's Mellotron, which he bought while he was living at Courtfield Road, travelled with him to Cotchford and was at his parents home for sometime following his death. Where it went after that is unknown to general public.

Bill still 'owns' Brian's Gibson Les Paul goldtop.

...

More generally...

The stones still have both of the non reverse Firebirds Brian played.

The stones still own and use the Hummingbird's from 60's.

The Firebird given to Peter Swales must be the reverse Firebird VII.

Not sure what happened to the J200 shown in use during 1968.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-28 15:27 by His Majesty.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 16:20

Quote
snoopy2


2nd question: For those who are tuned into this kind of thing (I'm not) what are the best ways to determine which guitar line is Brian's on Stones' tracks? I've been listening to them since early 70s and seem to always get it wrong (As kids we went by the rule that anything "lead" was Brian and anything "rhythm" was Keith, as time passed we realized we had no idea who we were hearing)

For what ever reason, Brian seems to have had no interest in playing lead guitar (single strings, bending notes and all that) solos unless it was with a slide. The closest he came was his part on Get Off Of My Cloud, especially live. But, it's more a specific arrangement part rather than a free flowing solo.

Keith played all of the single line guitar solos that don't involve a slide.

They shared the other guitar duties, but as time went by Brian slipped mostly in to a more strict rhythm and occasional slide only kind of approach and Keith soon became the musical vehicle upon which the band rode.

Some Brian guitar parts.

Slide on I Wanna Be Your Man:
[www.youtube.com]

Tremolo guitar on Mona:
[www.youtube.com]

12 string power chords in intro - outro and chucky berry like rhythm with addition of those cheeky little fills during verses on It's All Over Now:
[www.youtube.com]

Slide, on Little Red Rooster, obviously:
[www.youtube.com]

Slashing bar chords on Off The Hook:
[www.youtube.com]

The Last Time motif:
[www.youtube.com]

Slide on I Can't Be Satisfied:
[www.youtube.com]

Brian plays the main riff/motif on Have Mercy:
[www.youtube.com]

All the focus is on his sitar part, but Brian also played acoustic on Paint It Black:
[www.youtube.com]

...

There is a lot more, but things get a little murky by the time of the Between The Buttons sessions in August 1966.

Brian still played guitar well during 1966 US tour, but aside from one possible contribution, the tremolo guitar on Please Go Home it's not all that clear what he played on guitar wise in the studio after the tour.

Brian played guitar during TSMR sessions, but none of it made it to an official release.

By Beggars Banquet there's the obvious slide on No Expectations and also on the unreleased Still A Fool. Other than that all there is is Bill saying Brian played acoustic on Jumpin' Jack Flash.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-28 16:29 by His Majesty.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 16:30

Quote
His Majesty

By Beggars Banquet there's the obvious slide on No Expectations and also on the unreleased Still A Fool. Other than that all there is is Bill saying Brian played acoustic on Jumpin' Jack Flash.

On the clip below he's playing the guitar (jjf), so in the studio he might have been involved on the acoustic as well.


JJF - 1968

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 16:44

Quote
TheflyingDutchman


On the clip below he's playing the guitar (jjf), so in the studio he might have been involved on the acoustic as well.


JJF - 1968

They are miming to a raw studio recording.

What Brian is shown playing is not heard. He's shown playing the same basic part he played later at the R&R Circus.

...

If Bill is right about Brian playing acoustic on JJF. That means he played as part of the initial Philips cassette recording along with Keith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-28 16:49 by His Majesty.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 17:54

Ronnie played Brian's Firebird on the Stripped-shows, no?

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 17:56

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Ronnie played Brian's Firebird on the Stripped-shows, no?

No.

Tis a different Firebird.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 18:03

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
TheflyingDutchman


On the clip below he's playing the guitar (jjf), so in the studio he might have been involved on the acoustic as well.


JJF - 1968



What Brian is shown playing is not heard. He's shown playing the same basic part he played later at the R&R Circus.

...

At least nice to see he still was (remotely) attached to the guitar in 1968.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 18:13

Quote
TheflyingDutchman


At least nice to see he still was (remotely) attached to the guitar in 1968.

It's all quite odd. Some wonky mental block seems to have developed in relation to playing guitar properly with the stones.

But, all along his relationship with the guitar is quite odd. A guitarist that seemed to not want to express himself via lead guitar. He plays harmonica on both sides of stones debut single.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 20:07

Quote
His Majesty

By Beggars Banquet there's the obvious slide on No Expectations and also on the unreleased Still A Fool. Other than that all there is is Bill saying Brian played acoustic on Jumpin' Jack Flash.


So it's Keith playing all the guitars on this outtake?

JJF Outtake.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 20:18

Quote
TheflyingDutchman



So it's Keith playing all the guitars on this outtake?

JJF Outtake.

That's just a wonky slowed down variation of the official release with different vocals.

The acoustic philips cassette take is mostly buried, it's like a muffled dirty driving rhythm in the background. If Bill is right, Brian played along with Keith on that take.

All the other guitars are electric and all most likely played by Keith.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 21:08

"I'm not one of those guitarists who lives with his guitar. Sometimes I don't ever have it in the house"
- Brian


Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 22:15

Quote
His Majesty


The acoustic philips cassette take is mostly buried, it's like a muffled dirty driving rhythm in the background. If Bill is right, Brian played along with Keith on that take.

All the other guitars are electric and all most likely played by Keith.

Does this philips cassette take with Keith and probably Brian still exist- without the overdubs ?

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 22:17

Quote
TheflyingDutchman


Does this philips cassette take with Keith and probably Brian still exist- without the overdubs ?

Not for us to hear.

The cassette take of SFM was available to hear at Exhibitionsm. Fascinating to hear it on it's own.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 22:21

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
TheflyingDutchman


Does this philips cassette take with Keith and probably Brian still exist- without the overdubs ?

Not for us to hear.

The cassette take of SFM was available to hear at Exhibitionsm. Fascinating to hear it on it's own.

Thanks, then you must have heard an acoustic guitar as well smoking smiley

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 22:43

Quote
TheflyingDutchman


Thanks, then you must have heard an acoustic guitar as well smoking smiley

A distorted one, but, a different song. tongue sticking out smiley

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 22:49

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
TheflyingDutchman


Thanks, then you must have heard an acoustic guitar as well smoking smiley

A distorted one, but, a different song. tongue sticking out smiley

Quite a downer. confused smiley

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 22:55

Quote
TheflyingDutchman


Quite a downer. confused smiley

No, fascinating.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 23:03

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
TheflyingDutchman


Quite a downer. confused smiley

No, fascinating.

I mean not hearing the famous Richards-Jones track. Could have been evidence that Bill Wyman was right.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2019 23:06

I prefer Street Fighting Man anyway. grinning smiley

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 23:14

I understand. cool smiley

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Date: April 28, 2019 23:41

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Ronnie played Brian's Firebird on the Stripped-shows, no?

No.

Tis a different Firebird.

I wonder why Ronnie claimed it was that guitar. Maybe I'm mixing Stripped with another show and interview...

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: snoopy2 ()
Date: April 29, 2019 01:27

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
TheflyingDutchman


At least nice to see he still was (remotely) attached to the guitar in 1968.

It's all quite odd. Some wonky mental block seems to have developed in relation to playing guitar properly with the stones.

But, all along his relationship with the guitar is quite odd. A guitarist that seemed to not want to express himself via lead guitar. He plays harmonica on both sides of stones debut single.

First, thank you HisMajesty for your info! I appreciate your listing links to some of Brian's specific parts.

What you said is The Last Time "motif" I always thought of as kind of a lead I guess, for that time anyway. I love that it's him cuz that's the song, specifically the opening guitar bit, that first grabbed and hooked me to the Stones. For a long time we also thought it was Brian playing those throat-cutting guitar lines on Sympathy and Stray Cat, until we learned later that he was largely out of it for those Beggar's sessions.

I think we attributed his guitar as "lead" because when my friends and I first discovered The Stones it wasn't "Mick and the Stones" it was "The Stones" and Brian was front and center to all of us. In fact I remember my first show, Candlestick '81, someone in the crowd had a sign that said "Where's Brian" which seems odd to ask in '81 but it shows that many fans recognized his role in all this.

Finally, regarding his harmonica playing you mention, I've always thought that even on studio recordings whenever Mick was singing at same time there was harp that it must be Brian playing the harp.. Can you differentiate between Mick and Brian's harp styles?

Thanks again!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-29 01:30 by snoopy2.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 29, 2019 02:15

Brian did play 'lead guitar', at times, but a lot of people associate that term with soloing ala Clapton/Beck/Page and thousands of others.

These types of conversations often get muddled due to that.

...

Brian tended to be a more busier harmonica player. More notes and it would be heard through out the song. Mick tended to just play a little bit on an intro and a solo.

...

Regarding this: "he was largely out of it for those Beggar's sessions."

That's not true. He would sometimes turn up and play fine. He would sometimes not turn up at all. He would sometimes turn up under the influence of drink and/or drugs.

The re-tellings, the merging of memories has created a distorted picture of how he was. Yes he could be like that, but he could also be a functioning musician.

There's a gradual decline, so the Brian of summer 1967, spring 1968, autumn 1968 and spring 1969 is not the same. They lump it all together as if it was though.

Brian contributed to 8 or so tracks on Beggars Banquet and played on 3 other tracks from same sessions. That's not much different to his level of contributions in 1967. There's a bit of a decrease in the importance of the contributions, but he's still there enough to be on most of the released tracks in a noticeable way.

Things declined a stage further by the time of the spring 1969 session, but there are two official releases with him on them from 1969 and atleast 5 different sessions at Olympic where he is shown playing guitar, harmonica and Moroccan drums.

...

None of this is to deny he had problems. He obviously did. It's just to show that the story is far more nuanced than the quick fire dismissive replies in interviews suggest.

There's a gradual decline of interest and contribution, but he contributed to the very end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-29 02:19 by His Majesty.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: snoopy2 ()
Date: April 29, 2019 03:59

.. "None of this is to deny he had problems. He obviously did. It's just to show that the story is far more nuanced than the quick fire dismissive replies in interviews suggest" ..

You don't know how much I enjoyed reading your last post..

I tend towards nuance and grey areas of life, and for years rejected the sometimes black/white views of what happened, but surprisingly it was the way quotes from the other Stones were presented that I started to believe he had almost zero contribution to Beggar's Banquet..

You're correct, things get lumped together and especially with film things are often cherrypicked or edited for effect and may have little to do with what the person being quoted meant or intended (I've worked in both documentary and fiction film, and actually quit working on docs as I began to see how distorted things could sometimes get)

I got curious about your mention of his actual contributions to Beggar's, looked around and found this: [en.wikipedia.org]. The conversation gets a bit muddled and argumentative on the wiki link, but I did my own cherrypicking to try and put together a clearer picture

Thx for the harmonica insight, I'll start listening to those early tracks with that info in mind



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-29 04:02 by snoopy2.

Re: Brian Jones - History of his guitar
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: April 29, 2019 10:04

The owner of Brian's Harmony Stratotone is one of three sons of a dentist named Wilson, who was a friend of Eric Easton. Eric arranged new instruments for the Stones in 1964 and took "the old stuff". He gave Brian's guitar to the dentist as a return of favor. The youngest son of the dentist "inherited" the guitar.

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