Tell Me :
Talk
The problems you mention come at the mastering stage not the production one. I'm sure Was has very little to do with mastering Stones albums. It's a different super-technical job Was has zero skills for.
Don Was is still with them and has worked on everything since "Voodoo Lounge" as well.
This is what Rubin did during the WS sessions, and Jagger did not really appreciate the experience. Imho he made sure he hired a "yes man" for the Stones albums.
Hence Don Was...
But not because of the Stones themselves? Interesting. So little regard for bass playing that Mick himself did a couple cuts? That Keith had shredded his voice to the point it was unlistenable after Voodoo? I'll admit that Charlie's cymbals sound like trash can lids on Bigger Bang, but to blame all of it on Don Was?
And I think this is the conclusion Jagger came to too in the early 90's.
Translation : Mick prefers to work in the studio with a "yes man" who'll make sure things go quickly and smoothly. The most horrible thing for him would be to face a perfectionist who'd make the Stones work on the songs over and over till they reach sth like the brillance of the 68-72 era.
Once he enters the studio Jagger just wants to put out a decent album (with two catchy singles) which will be the vehicule for the main goal he wants to reach : a lucrative world-wide tour.
I mean why splitting hairs on a song which won't be played live at all or will only be played during the immediate tour and then forgotten. Jagger is pragmatic.
Only Keef lives in the illusionary world where the Stones get stronger each year and still have to reach their apex in th studio or on a stage.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 21:51 by dcba.
I have always considered VL a great album, much better than some of the 70s.
Love is strong from my point of view is a small masterpiece, with fantastic guitar crosses. You Got Me Rocking is a powerful rock I really like how it was developed, I really like guitars, in my opinion a great rock song, The Worst I love it, that slide is sublime! But it's just my opinion ...
I didn't mean to be harsh in my initial post, but really, it's a bit silly to hold out hope we're going to suddenly get a latter-day masterpiece from the Stones at this point.
That doesn't mean I don't want to hear new music from them, but I have no illusions about what we're most likely to get. Hell, I thought Doom and Gloom was a great little rocker.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: April 17, 2019 06:28
Don Was - If you’re like me you wonder why certain people are allowed to be in the same zip code as the band.
I’ve recently gone back through my 10 cds of Voodoo Lounge outtakes and I’m absolutely certain I could have picked a fan from this board,have them work with the band and do a better job of coaxing an album from these sessions.
He just crapped himself at every turn.lets just start at the start-
1. Love is strong - This Keith song is a great riff with Mick doing a good job adding some lyrics. But it’s brickwalled to the point of being off-putting.If WAS knew what he was doing he would have never allowed this.
2.You Got Me Rocking -another Keith rocker.how many times have you heard fans say how much they love this song live but don’t like the track? Keith laid down a great Stones riff for it reminiscent of something from Talk Is Cheap but WAS didn’t use it. Instead he let them drift away from it until we end up with this single string non-Stonesy riff and a too loud bass and drums leading the charge.any producer worth a damn would’ve pushed them to go back to that original Keith take were he’s nailing it and singing hey, hey ya got me rockin-
Brickwalled into oblivion a great Keith riff and Stones rocker dies on the vine.
3.The Worst- a good Keith Country song. But it’s recorded too damn LOUD! Did you ever wonder why the fiddle in Country Honk doesn’t make you cringe but this one just cuts into your skull? It’s an instrument that fills out a sound, even Country bands (good country bands)use them for support they’re not to be played or recorded loudly.theres at least one if not two versions that are better than the one used .
WAS just got lost working with the Stones... to be continued.
I’ve recently gone back through my 10 cds of Voodoo Lounge outtakes and I’m absolutely certain I could have picked a fan from this board,have them work with the band and do a better job of coaxing an album from these sessions.
He just crapped himself at every turn.lets just start at the start-
1. Love is strong - This Keith song is a great riff with Mick doing a good job adding some lyrics. But it’s brickwalled to the point of being off-putting.If WAS knew what he was doing he would have never allowed this.
2.You Got Me Rocking -another Keith rocker.how many times have you heard fans say how much they love this song live but don’t like the track? Keith laid down a great Stones riff for it reminiscent of something from Talk Is Cheap but WAS didn’t use it. Instead he let them drift away from it until we end up with this single string non-Stonesy riff and a too loud bass and drums leading the charge.any producer worth a damn would’ve pushed them to go back to that original Keith take were he’s nailing it and singing hey, hey ya got me rockin-
Brickwalled into oblivion a great Keith riff and Stones rocker dies on the vine.
3.The Worst- a good Keith Country song. But it’s recorded too damn LOUD! Did you ever wonder why the fiddle in Country Honk doesn’t make you cringe but this one just cuts into your skull? It’s an instrument that fills out a sound, even Country bands (good country bands)use them for support they’re not to be played or recorded loudly.theres at least one if not two versions that are better than the one used .
WAS just got lost working with the Stones... to be continued.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
calipachangero
()
Date: April 17, 2019 07:42
Don Was - a good producer
Don was a good producer - in the eyes of a few, but the myth stayed. Overhyped avarage with a "cool" name
Don was a good producer - in the eyes of a few, but the myth stayed. Overhyped avarage with a "cool" name
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: April 17, 2019 08:00
good stuff imo Lem. thanks.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: April 17, 2019 08:22
Spot-on observation regarding You Got Me Rocking. I’ve often loved the live renditions, but the studio-release has never grabbed me. Too loud bass and drums; Keith’s guitar burried throughout.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 08:22 by Big Al.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 08:22 by Big Al.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
MadMax
()
Date: April 17, 2019 09:14
Interesting inputs Lem! I love obeservations like these. I like the production of Love Is Strong, Sparks, Moon Is Up and New Faces but YGMR is extremely brickwalled! Sign of the times? (93-94-95)
It feels that Don suits both Mick and Keith, he can bring summat new as well as keeping the Stones soul, at least that's how I feel.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 09:16 by MadMax.
It feels that Don suits both Mick and Keith, he can bring summat new as well as keeping the Stones soul, at least that's how I feel.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 09:16 by MadMax.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: April 17, 2019 10:25
Quote
lem motlow
1. Love is strong - brickwalled to the point of being off-putting.
2.You Got Me Rocking Brickwalled into oblivion
3.The Worst- recorded too damn LOUD!
The problems you mention come at the mastering stage not the production one. I'm sure Was has very little to do with mastering Stones albums. It's a different super-technical job Was has zero skills for.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Blueranger
()
Date: April 17, 2019 12:28
Listen to the raw bootlegs. The loudness you are complaining about is not there. It was a decision made at the mastering stage. It has NOTHING to do with Don Was as a producer. Come again when you have learned the basic technical aspects, before dismissing something you don’t know a thing about in the first place.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: April 17, 2019 12:39
…… I better take it easy on Lem
ROCKMAN
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 12:46 by Rockman.
ROCKMAN
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 12:46 by Rockman.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: April 17, 2019 13:08
Lem, you make very valid points !
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: April 17, 2019 15:40
Terrible "producer". I don't even want to gibe him that title. Because within Stones confines, he certainly doesn't produce. I don't know...maybe he hires engineers, and then sits and does that nodding along with hands on headphones in his stupid sandals.
I'm so glad Lem pointed out what is my pet peeve; my least liked Stones album. I think the extent of his producing is to find a way to cram both sides' input into every song. Both sides meaning Mick and Keith. So neither song ever finds a hard identity. They end up shaved and emasculated.
In my own little world I have worked with someone like that, who could never get himself to make a courageous decision, but always tried to keep everything in there; resulting in mud instead of definition.
VL - we have heard the outtakes. We know there was better material left behind; better mixes for sure. And for sure better arrangements. "Sweethearts","Jugular", "Tears", "Rocking", "Sparks", "Brand New Car", "Wild" - maybe not all front runners to even be included, but end up slogging all over that player.
Honest Man, Zip Mouth, You got it made, Storm, raw versions of "Rocking", Love is Strong", "Baby break it down".
I'm so glad Lem pointed out what is my pet peeve; my least liked Stones album. I think the extent of his producing is to find a way to cram both sides' input into every song. Both sides meaning Mick and Keith. So neither song ever finds a hard identity. They end up shaved and emasculated.
In my own little world I have worked with someone like that, who could never get himself to make a courageous decision, but always tried to keep everything in there; resulting in mud instead of definition.
VL - we have heard the outtakes. We know there was better material left behind; better mixes for sure. And for sure better arrangements. "Sweethearts","Jugular", "Tears", "Rocking", "Sparks", "Brand New Car", "Wild" - maybe not all front runners to even be included, but end up slogging all over that player.
Honest Man, Zip Mouth, You got it made, Storm, raw versions of "Rocking", Love is Strong", "Baby break it down".
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
buffalo7478
()
Date: April 17, 2019 17:16
Have the Stones has an actual real producer since Exile? It sounds like Jimmy Miller was not in control during GHS from bits I've read and the whole feel of that record being so different from the preceding Jimmy Miller records.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
UGot2Rollme
()
Date: April 17, 2019 17:32
Honestly IMO, Vodoo Lounge was their last stellar album and I love the production. But that might have been their last work with Don Was so maybe band agreed with you?
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
floodonthepage
()
Date: April 17, 2019 17:57
Quote
UGot2Rollme
Honestly IMO, Vodoo Lounge was their last stellar album and I love the production. But that might have been their last work with Don Was so maybe band agreed with you?
Don Was is still with them and has worked on everything since "Voodoo Lounge" as well.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: April 17, 2019 18:04
I always thought Don Was - he was to close to the stones being a fan and in awe to be an effective producer - you need someone who is not afraid to take chances and say no to the glimmers and push them to the limits .
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
floodonthepage
()
Date: April 17, 2019 18:10
Quote
OpenG
I always thought Don Was - he was to close to the stones being a fan and in awe to be an effective producer - you need someone who is not afraid to take chances and say no to the glimmers and push them to the limits .
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: April 17, 2019 18:11
Quote
OpenG
to be an effective producer - you need someone who is not afraid to take chances and say no to the glimmers and push them to the limits .
This is what Rubin did during the WS sessions, and Jagger did not really appreciate the experience. Imho he made sure he hired a "yes man" for the Stones albums.
Hence Don Was...
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
maumau
()
Date: April 17, 2019 18:13
Interesting post and observations, no need of the click-baiting-tabloid-like-loud title imo
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Rip This
()
Date: April 17, 2019 19:04
you got me rocking is more about the cheezy lyrics than anything else...jut sayin'
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: April 17, 2019 19:34
I rarely if ever listen to VoodooBabylonBang, but the production on Voodoo wasn't bad, for the few memorable songs on it. I have a super hyped up remix of You Got Me Rocking that I love playing loud. The problem with Voodoo is that it's a rehash, a weak echo to what had already been. I like New Faces, but it's obviously Lady Jane for a new audience. I think it's ridiculous to blame Don Was for what the Stones in the studio devolved to. Mick has ears. He can make an album sound however he wants it to sound. Besides, I like Don's bass on 'Don't Be a Stranger', while Bill plays marimbas!
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
rbk
()
Date: April 17, 2019 19:44
Don Was is/was not the Stones producer but rather a glorified "Yes" man.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
muncy23
()
Date: April 17, 2019 20:05
I agree with the harsh assessment of Don Was. Voodoo Lounge is not a bad album but it had a lot more potential. It doesnt sound as well as it should through sounds systems (and that goes for B2B and Bigger Bang too). Seems like a wasted 3 albums to me because of Don Was.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: April 17, 2019 20:33
Quote
muncy23
I agree with the harsh assessment of Don Was. Voodoo Lounge is not a bad album but it had a lot more potential. It doesnt sound as well as it should through sounds systems (and that goes for B2B and Bigger Bang too). Seems like a wasted 3 albums to me because of Don Was.
But not because of the Stones themselves? Interesting. So little regard for bass playing that Mick himself did a couple cuts? That Keith had shredded his voice to the point it was unlistenable after Voodoo? I'll admit that Charlie's cymbals sound like trash can lids on Bigger Bang, but to blame all of it on Don Was?
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: April 17, 2019 21:04
Guys ,please don’t make me take up space answering stupid shit. Of course I know Don Was didn’t do the mix or master Voodoo Lounge.
I would assume if you have your name on a Rolling Stones album next to Jagger and Richards as producer that you heard the final product.
The fact that he didn’t have a fit over something fans on the internet can hear clear as day means he’s the problem.
MICK JAGGER:”there were a lot of things we wrote for Voodoo Lounge that Don steered us away from.groove songs,African influences and things like that.
And he steered us clear of all that and I think it was a mistake.”
(RS magazine 1995)
What we can see here is -1. Mick thought the album could’ve been better and 2.Don Was doesn’t just sit there agreeing with the band,it’s worse than we thought,he actually gets in the way.
Here’s his response -“I’m not anti-groove,I’m anti-groove without substance in the context of the album.
They had a number of great grooves but I was like “what goes on top of it,where does it go.?”
You can see from this he doesn’t even understand how the Stones work.they work those grooves in the studio for hours and like an artist with a huge lump of clay the songs slowly form out of it.
We all know Start me Up was a reggae song that they jammed on until it evolved into what it became.
Same with Sympathy,you’ve all heard Mick say it was a sort of samba.After working it hour after hour it became great.
If this guy was there he would’ve been telling them ,”ok great now write a song”
He’s clueless, he’s in the way and needs to be out of there or you’ll never see another great Stones record.
I would assume if you have your name on a Rolling Stones album next to Jagger and Richards as producer that you heard the final product.
The fact that he didn’t have a fit over something fans on the internet can hear clear as day means he’s the problem.
MICK JAGGER:”there were a lot of things we wrote for Voodoo Lounge that Don steered us away from.groove songs,African influences and things like that.
And he steered us clear of all that and I think it was a mistake.”
(RS magazine 1995)
What we can see here is -1. Mick thought the album could’ve been better and 2.Don Was doesn’t just sit there agreeing with the band,it’s worse than we thought,he actually gets in the way.
Here’s his response -“I’m not anti-groove,I’m anti-groove without substance in the context of the album.
They had a number of great grooves but I was like “what goes on top of it,where does it go.?”
You can see from this he doesn’t even understand how the Stones work.they work those grooves in the studio for hours and like an artist with a huge lump of clay the songs slowly form out of it.
We all know Start me Up was a reggae song that they jammed on until it evolved into what it became.
Same with Sympathy,you’ve all heard Mick say it was a sort of samba.After working it hour after hour it became great.
If this guy was there he would’ve been telling them ,”ok great now write a song”
He’s clueless, he’s in the way and needs to be out of there or you’ll never see another great Stones record.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: April 17, 2019 21:16
Please...they're in their mid/late 70s. We're never gonna see a great Stones record irrespective of who the producer is.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Sighunt
()
Date: April 17, 2019 21:28
Quote
lem motlow
Guys ,please don’t make me take up space answering stupid shit. Of course I know Don Was didn’t do the mix or master Voodoo Lounge.
I would assume if you have your name on a Rolling Stones album next to Jagger and Richards as producer that you heard the final product.
The fact that he didn’t have a fit over something fans on the internet can hear clear as day means he’s the problem.
MICK JAGGER:”there were a lot of things we wrote for Voodoo Lounge that Don steered us away from.groove songs,African influences and things like that.
And he steered us clear of all that and I think it was a mistake.”
(RS magazine 1995)
Chiming in here, what I also remember reading at the time (if my memory serves me well) was that Was may have been aiming for a retro album (ala re-hashing something like Exile on Main Street) which Jagger thought was a mistake and missed opportunity.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
marianna
()
Date: April 17, 2019 21:35
How did those hours of Voodoo session tapes get leaked? I used to own two sets, but they both went blank (CD "rot" or whatever it's called). They were hours long. I don't think I ever listened to the whole thing. The conversations between Ron, Keith, and Ron's then-wife are mildly entertaining. The songs aren't that great to begin with.
If you wanted an album like the demos, then you'd have to get a stripped-down type of production and that type of producer. Don isn't that guy, and they must have hired him because they wanted something more competitive for play '90s AOR radio. It's not a bad album because of Don.
If you wanted an album like the demos, then you'd have to get a stripped-down type of production and that type of producer. Don isn't that guy, and they must have hired him because they wanted something more competitive for play '90s AOR radio. It's not a bad album because of Don.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: April 17, 2019 21:40
But the danger with that is you will be shown the door a-la -a bums rush and hit the bricks/pavement faster than the speed of sound and that in a nutshell is the proverbial conundrum . Just to be clear I most certainly am not defending Don Was .Quote
OpenG
I always thought Don Was - he was to close to the stones being a fan and in awe to be an effective producer - you need someone who is not afraid to take chances and say no to the glimmers and push them to the limits .
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: April 17, 2019 21:49
Quote
keefriff99
Please...they're in their mid/late 70s. We're never gonna see a great Stones record irrespective of who the producer is.
And I think this is the conclusion Jagger came to too in the early 90's.
Translation : Mick prefers to work in the studio with a "yes man" who'll make sure things go quickly and smoothly. The most horrible thing for him would be to face a perfectionist who'd make the Stones work on the songs over and over till they reach sth like the brillance of the 68-72 era.
Once he enters the studio Jagger just wants to put out a decent album (with two catchy singles) which will be the vehicule for the main goal he wants to reach : a lucrative world-wide tour.
I mean why splitting hairs on a song which won't be played live at all or will only be played during the immediate tour and then forgotten. Jagger is pragmatic.
Only Keef lives in the illusionary world where the Stones get stronger each year and still have to reach their apex in th studio or on a stage.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-04-17 21:51 by dcba.
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
Testify
()
Date: April 17, 2019 23:05
Do you really believe these choices are from Don? I doubt it! Don is an anomalous producer with the Stones, actually the Stones do as they wish.Quote
lem motlow
Don Was - If you’re like me you wonder why certain people are allowed to be in the same zip code as the band.
I’ve recently gone back through my 10 cds of Voodoo Lounge outtakes and I’m absolutely certain I could have picked a fan from this board,have them work with the band and do a better job of coaxing an album from these sessions.
He just crapped himself at every turn.lets just start at the start-
1. Love is strong - This Keith song is a great riff with Mick doing a good job adding some lyrics. But it’s brickwalled to the point of being off-putting.If WAS knew what he was doing he would have never allowed this.
2.You Got Me Rocking -another Keith rocker.how many times have you heard fans say how much they love this song live but don’t like the track? Keith laid down a great Stones riff for it reminiscent of something from Talk Is Cheap but WAS didn’t use it. Instead he let them drift away from it until we end up with this single string non-Stonesy riff and a too loud bass and drums leading the charge.any producer worth a damn would’ve pushed them to go back to that original Keith take were he’s nailing it and singing hey, hey ya got me rockin-
Brickwalled into oblivion a great Keith riff and Stones rocker dies on the vine.
3.The Worst- a good Keith Country song. But it’s recorded too damn LOUD! Did you ever wonder why the fiddle in Country Honk doesn’t make you cringe but this one just cuts into your skull? It’s an instrument that fills out a sound, even Country bands (good country bands)use them for support they’re not to be played or recorded loudly.theres at least one if not two versions that are better than the one used .
WAS just got lost working with the Stones... to be continued.
I have always considered VL a great album, much better than some of the 70s.
Love is strong from my point of view is a small masterpiece, with fantastic guitar crosses. You Got Me Rocking is a powerful rock I really like how it was developed, I really like guitars, in my opinion a great rock song, The Worst I love it, that slide is sublime! But it's just my opinion ...
Re: Fire Don Was NOW ! The Voodoo Disaster part1
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: April 17, 2019 23:10
That's a great point honestly.Quote
dcbaQuote
keefriff99
Please...they're in their mid/late 70s. We're never gonna see a great Stones record irrespective of who the producer is.
And I think this is the conclusion Jagger came to too in the early 90's.
Translation : Mick prefers to work in the studio with a "yes man" who'll make sure things go quickly and smoothly. The most horrible thing for him would be to face a perfectionist who'd make the Stones work on the songs over and over till they reach sth like the brillance of the 68-72 era.
Once he enters the studio Jagger just wants to put out a decent album (with two catchy singles) which will be the vehicule for the main goal he wants to reach : a lucrative world-wide tour.
I mean why splitting hairs on a song which won't be played live at all or will only be played during the immediate tour and then forgotten. Jagger is pragmatic.
Only Keef lives in the illusionary world where the Stones get stronger each year and still have to reach their apex in th studio or on a stage.
I didn't mean to be harsh in my initial post, but really, it's a bit silly to hold out hope we're going to suddenly get a latter-day masterpiece from the Stones at this point.
That doesn't mean I don't want to hear new music from them, but I have no illusions about what we're most likely to get. Hell, I thought Doom and Gloom was a great little rocker.
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