Stickyfingers101, he is hopeless, it's like talking to a wall, perhaps a plexiglass wall, but one which is not translucent, unlike the one that used to surround Charlie. THAT wall could predict the future, but this gentleman refuses to acknowledge the past, AND the present.


plexi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-13 05:20 by timbernardis.

I prefer to consider the complexities and convergences of the past and present rather than ignore them.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-14 16:04 by His Majesty.

Oh it's not black and white, lots of gray. The least that can be said is that African American is one factor in this mix, albeit a major one. Can u acknowledge that? Or u would prefer not to?


plexi

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timbernardis
The least that can be said is that African American is one factor in this mix, albeit a major one.


plexi

That's stating the obvious.


But, it's also complicated, for example...

[www.youtube.com]

……. The GREAT Patton … ^^^^^^^

The soundtrack to my drift into sleep every night ……



ROCKMAN

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His Majesty

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timbernardis
The least that can be said is that African American is one factor in this mix, albeit a major one.


plexi

That's stating the obvious.


But, it's also complicated, for example...

[www.youtube.com]

A concession, finally!


plexi

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timbernardis


A concession, finally!


plexi

Erm, not any different to what I've been saying all along.

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His Majesty

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timbernardis


A concession, finally!


plexi

Erm, not any different to what I've been saying all along.

What have you been saying, His Majesty? I missed that.

~"Love is Strong"~

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angee

What have you been saying, His Majesty? I missed that.

That it's all a complicated gumbo.

“I listen to everything. I’ll hear a lick and it’ll grab you—not even blues, necessarily. It might even be from a speaking voice or something from a gospel record, and then I hope I can get it on my guitar. No music is unsatisfying to me. It’s all got something in it. It’s like that gumbo that’s in that kitchen there. You know how many tastes and meats are in there? I see my music as a gumbo. When you hear me play, there’s everything in there, everything I ever heard and stole from. - Buddy Guy

Buddy is a legend for sure. He was great when I saw him open for and join the Stones at the Marcus Amphitheatre on the Zip Code tour, and at his 2017 Jazz Fest set. He can get a little too flashy and loud for my tastes (although he was neither of these, and quite on point in Milwaukee) but, that's his thing. He has often made me think he is trying to compete with the ghost of Jimi Hendrix.

He is past 80 now, so the heavy work of keeping Blues music vital will fall to a younger group of players. Alvin Youngblood Hart, Shemekia Copeland, Corey Harris and others. It's got to be bittersweet for these musicians, that outside of the Southern U.S. are generally ignored by the young African-American community. Hopefully the beauty and majesty of the blues will strike future generations as powerful tools to get over hardship rather than as painful reminders of oppressive times.

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His Majesty

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timbernardis
The least that can be said is that African American is one factor in this mix, albeit a major one.


plexi

That's stating the obvious.


But, it's also complicated, for example...

[www.youtube.com]

I try to get out and they just drag me back in!!!

yep....Charlie P is of mixed GENETIC-BIOLOGICAL ancestry. Done. Genetics and biology are complicated. Yep. Done.

Nobody is questioning that point of your argument.

Questions - would Charley P have been allowed to use the "white" public bathroom? Attend a "white" school? Eat in "white" restaurants? Sit in the front of the bus?

and if he was accused of whistling at a "white" woman, would the Klan have said: "oh, it's all a gumbo...leave Charley P. alone b/c he's not really "black"...he's of mixed ancestry"

nope, nope, nope, nope......and DEFINITELY nope.

Here's an example of another "mixed-gumbo" person (genetically) and HIS experience in the American South (as a "black" person):

[en.wikipedia.org]

Charlie P's "cultural experience" was 100% that of a "black" man in Segregated America....just like Emmett Till's was....just like every other Founding Father of the Blues (and the other music forms I named)

Blues music is a direct product of the "black" cultural experience in America.

you simply refuse get over the "genetics-biology" hump. It seems like you are trying to say "there's no such thing as "race""....genetically-biologically that is probably true, but socially-culturally it couldn't be more wrong.

you make a good point about genetics & biology being a gumbo...."race" as social construct is totally different...

by ignoring socially-constructed cultural realities that "blacks" faced, I'm sorry you are engaging in Cultural Imperialism and cannot see the forest for the trees.

Come on, HM is not ignoring the reality that "blacks" faced in the us years ago and the role that so called "black" music and "black" musicians played in trying to change that reality (and nobody else is)!

Thank god blues (and funk and jazz) is a much more complex and interesting phenomenon than what could appear reading the usual boring narrow-minded bullsh.t that clutters New Yorker music columns.

C



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-18 16:22 by liddas.

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liddas
Come on, HM is not ignoring the reality that "blacks" faced in the us years ago and the role that so called "black" music and "black" musicians played in trying to change that reality (and nobody else is)!

Thank god blues (and funk and jazz) is a much more complex and interesting phenomenon than what could appear reading the usual boring narrow-minded bullsh.t that clutters New Yorker music columns.

C

He's not? Oh. Hmm. Not so sure. Maybe I'm confused.

He cites Charley P. as an example of "gumbo" and declares him as an example of being "complicated" (racially-complicated, I presume)

This is only true on a genetic-biological level and certainly indicates to me an ignorance of the cultural reality Charley P. would have faced in America at the time.

I simply find it absurd (and imperialist) to try to play the "race is complicated" card the moment somebody tries to give "blacks" Full Credit for something/anything.

Would you do that w/ Beethoven?

Is Beethoven German? No...it's complicated...it's a gumbo.

go tell that to the Minister of German Culture.

give me a break.

Keith Richards can claim he's "as black as the Ace of Spades"...but, he's not. Nobody ever told him to move to the back of the bus, now did they?

[www.loudersound.com]

I love Keith's music and respect him as a musician...but, he comes off as a moron in this article..."white slavery existed too"...oh boy.

Yes - and apples and oranges are both fruit, Keith.

now I've truly digressed!!

Buddy Guy is awesome.

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liddas
Come on, HM is not ignoring the reality that "blacks" faced in the us years ago and the role that so called "black" music and "black" musicians played in trying to change that reality (and nobody else is)!

Subtleties be damned.

To throw it back, did the blues always remain an alien music to The Rolling Stones? Or, did they add to the form/genre enough to make it also "their music"?

Forms or genres of music rarely stay static and isolated.

When Peter Green performed Need Your Love So Bad, what was happening?

Stealing, tribute, cultural appropriation or... A genuine and emotional statement in a by then multi national, multi cultural genre/form of music?

Take it back further. What of the influence of native americans? History has been pretty quiet on that, but more questions have been asked as time goes by with some interesting insight.

Imperialist? No, man, just pondering the convergence of the cultures that enabled the music of north America to develop as it did.

Just as interesting when you do so with music from anywhere.

Multi level gumbo.

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stickyfingers101

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His Majesty
I am saying there are white or better to say European influences in African-american music and culture before blues was even an identified form.

agreed.

Christianity is a clear example of this influence

yes, the "Euro"-influence is there...

Whites have added elements to it here, there and everywhere...

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stickyfingers101

yep....Charlie P is of mixed GENETIC-BIOLOGICAL ancestry. Done. Genetics and biology are complicated. Yep. Done.

Nobody is questioning that point of your argument.

you make a good point about genetics & biology being a gumbo....

Pondering the agreed points is not ignoring or denying the rather obvious horrors of the black experience in America.

It's an angle of interest because of the claim in the article that whites stole black music. It is a claim that is made complicated due to what happens to any form of music whilst it is in developemnt, arrives at a point of being definable and continues going through changes. It's made complicated due to the white or non black influences that are part of the story and complicated further by the genetics/ancestry angle.

Despite segregation there was a cross pollination of music, culture and genetics between people on either side of the segregated line. How much white or non black influence occured in relaion to black music, culture and specifically the blues is of course hard to quantify.

A relevent and interesting segment in Rainbow Quest from around 15 mnutes in. [youtu.be]

[mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us]

"By the 1890s, the blues form had been set and the sounds of a distinctive new music began to be heard beyond the work camps. The new music was filled with the polyrhythms and tonalities of African music and bore the nuances of many different tribes. Black Americans had borrowed substantially from white man’s music too – its scale, its rich folk traditions, its instruments. The blues did not emerge from Africa; it was born out of two musical cultures – black and white – that were thriving and growing separately and together. The result of this large-scale mixing was music that was to be the basis of mainstream popular music for the entire 20th century."

Again. This is not denying the horrors of the black experience in America.

Relax.



Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-19 10:53 by His Majesty.

Is someone going to see Buddy in new york in June? I'm going to be on the upper west side but I do not dare to go alone since it's the first time I'm going to go to the city.

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His Majesty

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liddas
Come on, HM is not ignoring the reality that "blacks" faced in the us years ago and the role that so called "black" music and "black" musicians played in trying to change that reality (and nobody else is)!

Subtleties be damned.

To throw it back, did the blues always remain an alien music to The Rolling Stones? Or, did they add to the form/genre enough to make it also "their music"?

Forms or genres of music rarely stay static and isolated.

When Peter Green performed Need Your Love So Bad, what was happening?

Stealing, tribute, cultural appropriation or... A genuine and emotional statement in a by then multi national, multi cultural genre/form of music?

Take it back further. What of the influence of native americans? History has been pretty quiet on that, but more questions have been asked as time goes by with some interesting insight.

Imperialist? No, man, just pondering the convergence of the cultures that enabled the music of north America to develop as it did.

Just as interesting when you do so with music from anywhere.

Multi level gumbo.

Quote
stickyfingers101

Quote
His Majesty
I am saying there are white or better to say European influences in African-american music and culture before blues was even an identified form.

agreed.

Christianity is a clear example of this influence

yes, the "Euro"-influence is there...

Whites have added elements to it here, there and everywhere...

Quote
stickyfingers101

yep....Charlie P is of mixed GENETIC-BIOLOGICAL ancestry. Done. Genetics and biology are complicated. Yep. Done.

Nobody is questioning that point of your argument.

you make a good point about genetics & biology being a gumbo....

Pondering the agreed points is not ignoring or denying the rather obvious horrors of the black experience in America.

It's an angle of interest because of the claim in the article that whites stole black music. It is a claim that is made complicated due to what happens to any form of music whilst it is in developemnt, arrives at a point of being definable and continues going through changes. It's made complicated due to the white or non black influences that are part of the story and complicated further by the genetics/ancestry angle.

Despite segregation there was a cross pollination of music, culture and genetics between people on either side of the segregated line. How much white or non black influence occured in relaion to black music, culture and specifically the blues is of course hard to quantify.

A relevent and interesting segment in Rainbow Quest from around 15 mnutes in. [youtu.be]

[mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us]

"By the 1890s, the blues form had been set and the sounds of a distinctive new music began to be heard beyond the work camps. The new music was filled with the polyrhythms and tonalities of African music and bore the nuances of many different tribes. Black Americans had borrowed substantially from white man’s music too – its scale, its rich folk traditions, its instruments. The blues did not emerge from Africa; it was born out of two musical cultures – black and white – that were thriving and growing separately and together. The result of this large-scale mixing was music that was to be the basis of mainstream popular music for the entire 20th century."

Again. This is not denying the horrors of the black experience in America.

Relax.

From your quote: "Black Americans were borrowing from white man's culture"....

yep. I never denied that.

However, it clearly states "blacks borrowed from whites," NOT the other way around. That is hugely important to the point I am making.

In other words, they borrowed, combined w/ their own culture....and made something unique.

culturally, everybody borrows from everybody...it's what you do w/ that and what you make from it that makes it your own.

Italians "borrowed" the tomato from the Americas...that doesn't make pizza a Native American food, does it?

I wonder why Keith doesn't claim to be "white as a bed sheet" when talking about himself and his music?

b/c he knows where he borrowed from...

to quote Keith: "just ask the brothers"

translation: ask black people

Keef wants to say "there's no color" to the blues or music or whatever...but, then says "but, I'm black as they ace of spades...just ask black people"

oh, the irony.

Blacks borrowed from each other, borrowed from whites...and created new musical forms. That makes them originators. Which is all I ever said.

I'm plenty relaxed. Thanks for the patronizing concern.

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stickyfingers101

That makes them originators. Which is all I ever said.

You said more than that, but never mind.

Whites were just a passive tomato that the blacks used for their pizza.

Got it.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-19 18:29 by His Majesty.

I think the blues will survive at least in Chicago. There is still a healthy interest in blues here. It continues to evolve. Memphis too. The history of blues is an interesting story to tell. Blues is the cornerstone of this music we dig. It goes on......

Damn right Buddy has got the Blues and he sure is a heck of a guitarist !

Seeing the legend himself tonight in Clearwater, Fl!

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Ram
Seeing the legend himself tonight in Clearwater, Fl!

Have a BLAST and let us know how the show goes!

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Kurt

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Ram
Seeing the legend himself tonight in Clearwater, Fl!

Have a BLAST and let us know how the show goes!

Indeed, let us know how it was. I have tickets for Buddy next month.

Buddy is definitely keeping the blues alive and well that is for sure! This is my first time seeing him so I don’t know what exactly to compare it to but I was blown away. Here is an 81-year-old full of emotion with vocal power and loud raw guitar skill. He plays a mix of some of his songs as well as famous blues tunes (Ex: Hooche Coochie Man and Boom Boom and even Voodoo Child). At one point he walked all the way up and around and down through the crowd playing and singing so if you have tickets on the aisle you’re in for a treat. He also is very funny and tells a couple stories now and then which are unfiltered to say the least. At one point he explained how important the Stones are and how much he owes to them. He told the story about how The Stones would only go on shindig if they got Muddy Waters at first.

So, my Final conclusion is if Buddy comes to your town you better go. Unfortunately, he is one of the last great bluesmen and is a key part of music history for sure. He puts on a great show with a great backing band and smiles and laughs the whole time. His guitar playing is still incredible and I hope to see him again sometime!

Brian had some kind of genius for finding people, didn't he?
-"He did. He got us together – Charlie, Mick and me."-"Life" by Keith Richards


Roll Tide

Got a ticket to the Red Bank, NJ show on June 18, the day before I fly to Chicago.

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Topi
Got a ticket to the Red Bank, NJ show on June 18, the day before I fly to Chicago.

from where do you go to the show? I'm going to be in Manhattan but I do not encourage myself to go alone.

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His Majesty

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stickyfingers101

That makes them originators. Which is all I ever said.

You said more than that, but never mind.

Whites were just a passive tomato that the blacks used for their pizza.

Got it.

All you've "got" is a culturally imperialistic perspective which seeks to undermine blacks rightful place in the historical narrative.

don't like my analogies? Ok....we'll use yours: "Blues (etc) is a gumbo."

Yep....I agree

but, gumbo doesn't make/create itself, now does/did it?...nope.

It takes a chef. It is the chef that gets credit for making the meal.

When it comes to blues (etc), those original chefs were black. All of them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-21 10:46 by stickyfingers101.

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makustone

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Topi
Got a ticket to the Red Bank, NJ show on June 18, the day before I fly to Chicago.

from where do you go to the show? I'm going to be in Manhattan but I do not encourage myself to go alone.

I will actually be staying with a friend over in Ridgewood, New Jersey from June 11 thru June 19.

Manhattan is fine if you're alone.
there are simple local rituals and you'll blend right in.
Just pin a lot of twenty dollar u.s. bills to your outermost garment
and take the subway anywhere at all. People will be interested in you;
you're showing a willingness to understand the culture; you make a small
sacrifice, and after your clothes are gone, nobody's gonna stab you mate.
that's just the press and the photographer scum at the hospitals here.
in the ER. stab wounds are NOTHING. it's the cannons that require extra bactine; and that should have been in your backpack anyway.
don't believe everything you read about us. or some stupid song.
the city and it's people will interact; not cold and aloof like some places.
you'll meet lots of people to help you open up your air passageways. people are not like standoffish like you hear; many will want to share stories and colorful epithets. even fluids. we're your colonies mate; youre safe here.

I just don't think this "cultural appropriation" argument does anything for anybody. Certainly not in this context of who is entitled to play the Blues.

If it could give money and an improved lifestyle to the originators who lived 100 or 150 years ago ...that would be great.

But it can't ! The past is gone and, thankfully, times change .

The Blues today is, if anything, a fairly middle class "art form" .
The folks who play it and love it , regardless of their colour, are not slaving or share cropping in the deep south .

They're not even working long hours in huge Chicago factories and depots.

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stickyfingers101

All you've "got" is a culturally imperialistic perspective which seeks to undermine blacks rightful place in the historical narrative.

don't like my analogies? Ok....we'll use yours: "Blues (etc) is a gumbo."

Yep....I agree

but, gumbo doesn't make/create itself, now does/did it?...nope.

It takes a chef. It is the chef that gets credit for making the meal.

When it comes to blues (etc), those original chefs were black. All of them.

You are projecting. My perspective is just considering and acknowledging the complexity and finer details of it all. Including the genetic angles, the circular aspects of influence etc.

In the chef analogy. The kitchen was not locked, the ingredients were not passive.

Most, not all of the chefs and kitchen assistants were black, African-American. Some of those chefs and kitchen assistants were of mixed race and mixed ancestry. Black/white, black/native - Black/white/native etc. Babies born of parents that were plantation owners and slaves and all the other scenarios that resulted in mixed race and mixed ancestry.

Society may have viewed them all as black people which resulted in an enslaved and/or segregated life experience, but that doesn't change the mixed race aspect of who they actually were.