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Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: timbernardis ()
Date: March 5, 2019 04:11

First, I would like to know if the Stones SACD releases (both Abkco and Japan and any others that I may not know of) are still of higher quality sound than any other format -- vinyl, regular CD, downloaded, streamed, any other. I realize downloads and streamed can come in different levels of quality/compressed-uncompressed/lossy and not, etc.

What is the difference between the Abkco and the Japanese releases?

I see that some SACDs and gold disc and some not. Are the gold discs somehow of higher quality or longer lasting than the regular silver discs?

Is the Abkco SACD issue of Ya Yas of better quality sound than the 40th anniversary edition of Ya Yas?

It seems some of the Abkco discs come with certificates and some not. Are the ones that include one somehow more valuable in any way?

I see quite a wide variety of prices on eBay for these items.

In short, is it still worth it for me to try to acquire SACD editions of all of the Stones albums that I don't already have in that format? Used/new, whatever.


plexi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-05 04:14 by timbernardis.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: March 5, 2019 09:03

I think the 2002 ABKCO CDs are spectacular. They really sparkle on the early albums, which weren't always released at their finest, at least in America. The later albums have a lot of detail not heard before. (Keith attested to that). Surprisingly the only real disappointment is Ya Yas. There's not much difference in aural punch between the SACD and earlier CD releases.

I do not own any of the Japanese SACDs of their later work. What I do have is Exile on Blu Ray Audio, and it is fantastic. Sit in the sweet spot of your 5.1 surround system and it's like they're with you in the room.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: March 5, 2019 12:58

Certificates were randomly included in the very early release.
Even if you bought the entire series, you could not compose the picture, unless you’re very lucky.
Bye, Luca

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: slewan ()
Date: March 5, 2019 13:06

I have only Beggars Banquet on SACD. it sounds really spectacular - when played on a SACD-Player. The first few seconds of SFM are revealing the difference between normal CD and SACD

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: March 5, 2019 13:28

Quote
1963luca0
Certificates were randomly included in the very early release.
Even if you bought the entire series, you could not compose the picture, unless you’re very lucky.
Bye, Luca

Someone got lucky.

[iorr.org]




"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: March 5, 2019 13:58

Quote
timbernardis

What is the difference between the Abkco and the Japanese releases?

For ABKCO period there is no difference between Japanese and the ROW editions (apart of Japanese OBI and booklet). They utilize the very same digital transfer. However, it seems that only UIGY-7001 - UIGY-7026 came with SACD layer.

For RSR period (from Sticky Fingers to Flashpoint) Japanese flat transfers from 2011-2013 are unique. It is believed that they sound much better comparing to both old CBS and Virgin re-issues.

Quote

I see that some SACDs and gold disc and some not. Are the gold discs somehow of higher quality or longer lasting than the regular silver discs?
Gold color is an optical illusion + marketing trick from ebay sellers winking smiley. Those discs that are called 'gold' are in fact dual layer hybrid discs. One layer is normal redbook, the other HD SACD. These were issued in digipaks and were in print from 2002 roughly till 2006.

If you believe in high quality CDs you should focus on those Japanese SHM (super hard material) editions. But mind that not all SHM discs are SACD. For example 2008 Japanese paper sleeve SHM ABKCO re-issues are redbook only, w/o HD SACD layer. 2006 Japanese re-issues are redbook too.

Quote

Is the Abkco SACD issue of Ya Yas of better quality sound than the 40th anniversary edition of Ya Yas?
No. It is the same. Actually, the CD with the original concert of 40th anniversary edition is utilizing redbook layer from 2002 SACD-hybrid (the second, corrected, mastering). The first mastering (the very 1st pressing Germany for the US) had an error - a few seconds from the beginning of "Stray Cat Blues" were cut. On the older CDs/vinyl, the guitar intro plays twice, but on the new disc it only plays once. A kind of a rarity these days. It can be identified by Made in Germany on the label and matrix number SONOPRESS 50411627/9005-2 01

Quote

It seems some of the Abkco discs come with certificates and some not. Are the ones that include one somehow more valuable in any way?
The very 1st editions of ABKCO SACD-hybrid discs from 2002 came with “Inaugural Edition Certificate of Authenticity”. There were 20 COA in total. The front side of each COA contains quote from one of the songs from London-DECCA years, the reverse - a part of a jigsaw puzzle. One can arrange them in 5 rows and 4 columns resulting in a black-and-white image of “Their Satanic Majesties Request” cover. Those are collector's toys. Do you need them? It depends how hard-core collector you are. The CDs from the inauguration edition and re-issues contain the very same digital material. Well, apart of of above mentioned Ya-Ya's. Also European version of Hot Rocks contains in SACD layer stereo version of Mothers Little Helper but the US - in mono.

Quote

I see quite a wide variety of prices on eBay for these items.
That is ebay winking smiley. If you are looking for SACD-hybrid you should look for digipak package. If CD is packed in jewel case - that is post-2006 re-issue w/o SACD layer.

I'll not focus on RSR-era SHM-SACD Japanese re-issues. That is different story. I believe, there were at least 3 editions of those - SHM-SACD, redbook-SHM-platinum and simple redbook-SHM. It is a pain to dig those Japanese catalog numbers winking smiley

PS. SACD -> 1 bit / 2.8 MHz, redbook -> 16 bit / 44 kHz

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: March 5, 2019 13:59

I was lucky to be able to buy almost all SACDs (not some "greatest hits") during my visit to Boston in 2002 (saw all three concerts thumbs upthumbs upthumbs up).
I had these mid-eighties ABKCO CDs, so could compare. BIG difference! The SACDs came close to the original vinyls, that is "the warmth" of the sound. However, on SACD I could hear things that I hadn't heard before on my vinyls. Was that good?
I don't know, because I grew up with the vinyls, so that sound was "my Rolling Stones sound". Still, the Stones' SACDs are real value for money.
smileys with beer

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: March 5, 2019 14:26

Quote
Deltics

Someone got lucky.

[iorr.org]



Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: March 5, 2019 14:44

Quote
georgie48
I was lucky to be able to buy almost all SACDs (not some "greatest hits") during my visit to Boston in 2002 (saw all three concerts thumbs upthumbs upthumbs up).
I had these mid-eighties ABKCO CDs, so could compare. BIG difference! The SACDs came close to the original vinyls, that is "the warmth" of the sound. However, on SACD I could hear things that I hadn't heard before on my vinyls. Was that good?
I don't know, because I grew up with the vinyls, so that sound was "my Rolling Stones sound".
Still, the Stones' SACDs are real value for money.
smileys with beer

If you heard things on SACD that you hadn't heard on the original vinyl...you probably didn't have a good enough record player winking smiley

I don't believe that even the best flat digital transfers have allowed more musical information to be resolved via any domestic digital format than is audible on the original vinyl pressings.

[Edited 3 times following attack of dyslexic fingers grinning smiley]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-05 15:06 by Spud.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: filstan ()
Date: March 5, 2019 18:06

Bill Wyman in SACD really shines. He is forward in the mix. His bass lines are clean and full. Apart from perhaps the UK ffrr mono LP pressings, the SACD's will sound really great if you actually play the discs through a SACD player. The fact that these discs can be played on standard CD players due to the separation of the hybrid layer makes these discs well worth the investment. Remember the SACD's are not 5.1. They are 2 channel stereo.

Having said all that, quality Stones vinyl sounds absolutely fantastic. Of course, some albums were better recorded than others. UK mono pressings prior to the switch over to Rolling Stones Records really pop out of the speakers. Early US mono pressings though on London sound great as well, just not as dynamic at the Decca/London UK mono pressings. The better sound system you run it through will bring even more detail. I invested in a new turntable and cartridge recently, and I can only say that I am hearing things on records that were previously lost/buried in the playback. Talk about a heavy return upgrade! Good money to good!

If you have the money to spend, and a quality sound system with SACD playback you will not be disappointed in the ABKCO SACD's. Get em all.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: March 5, 2019 18:16

Quote
Spud

If you heard things on SACD that you hadn't heard on the original vinyl...you probably didn't have a good enough record player winking smiley

Depends on the condition of the original vinyl too.

Crackles and pops hide musical information.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: March 5, 2019 18:34

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Spud

If you heard things on SACD that you hadn't heard on the original vinyl...you probably didn't have a good enough record player winking smiley

Depends on the condition of the original vinyl too.

Crackles and pops hide musical information.

That is where the vinyl lovers have a flaw as it being the best way to listen to music - I prefer to not have the vinyl noises.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: March 5, 2019 18:58

Me too. thumbs up

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: March 5, 2019 19:50

Quote
Spud
Quote
georgie48
I was lucky to be able to buy almost all SACDs (not some "greatest hits") during my visit to Boston in 2002 (saw all three concerts thumbs upthumbs upthumbs up).
I had these mid-eighties ABKCO CDs, so could compare. BIG difference! The SACDs came close to the original vinyls, that is "the warmth" of the sound. However, on SACD I could hear things that I hadn't heard before on my vinyls. Was that good?
I don't know, because I grew up with the vinyls, so that sound was "my Rolling Stones sound".
Still, the Stones' SACDs are real value for money.
smileys with beer

If you heard things on SACD that you hadn't heard on the original vinyl...you probably didn't have a good enough record player winking smiley

Oh, for sure that would be the case. We (my parents and us kids) were very happy to have a record player to start with. The signals then being transfered to a simple radio with 4 Watt built-in speakers ... Well, that was life in the sixties for a young Stones fan. I inherited the lot from my parents and lived on for quite a while with that modest technology, so you get used to the sound as it was. SACD (I played it on a DVD player, while the salesman said that a without a (bl*dy expensive) SACD player things wouldn't work (ah ... sales people) was a revelation!

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Kennedy ()
Date: March 5, 2019 22:42

Since I have copies of just about everything being discussed here, my thoughts are:

ABKCO YEARS: it is a dead heat between the SACDs and the vinyl reissues sourced with the same DSD remasters for sound quality. Of course, a lot of it depends on your system. If you have invested in a nice turntable/amp/speaker setup, I give the edge to the DSD vinyl versions. Nothing compares to the richness of good vinyl.

POST-ABKCO YEARS: Hands down, the Japanese SACDs are far superior in my opinion to every other version released. Not even close. Black & Blue and Emotional Rescue in particular are top shelf audiophile grade.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-05 22:43 by Kennedy.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: SFTD ()
Date: March 6, 2019 01:25

I would like to point out that the Japanese SHM-SACDs were also available for Beggars Banquet, Let It Bleed, TSMR, Big Hits and Through The Past Darkly. These five titles along with Sticky Fingers thru to Dirty Work inclusive are the cream of the crop. The SHM-SACDs are single layer ---- no redbook layer and will only play on an SACD player.


The 2002 dual layer SACDs from ABKRO when played on a good system with a SACD player will sound as good as can be. You will hear a difference between the redbook layer and the SACD layer.

If you want the best sounding Rolling Stones CD's, then you want these releases.

Happy hunting !!!!!!!!

SFTD

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: ThePaleRider ()
Date: March 6, 2019 02:49

Quote
SFTD


The 2002 dual layer SACDs from ABKRO when played on a good system with a SACD player will sound as good as can be. You will hear a difference between the redbook layer and the SACD layer.

If you want the best sounding Rolling Stones CD's, then you want these releases.

Happy hunting !!!!!!!!

SFTD

Just wondering what will play ABKCO SACD or Japanese SACD today...other than an SACD Player?

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: March 6, 2019 02:57

The Japanese Sticky Fingers SACD is me fave …..
Beggars is mighty fine toooooo ….. and Japanese
SACD of It's Only carries the 6.45 min version
of Time Waits For No One with that tiny bit more
fade-out and correct speed of Finger Print …… GREAT STUFF … Collect 'em ALL …..

ROCKMAN

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: March 6, 2019 03:00

The new Technics SL-G700 plays
everything even the fool just like me ….

ROCKMAN

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: DGA35 ()
Date: March 6, 2019 09:35

Go to the Connections page and click on the ABKCO remasters page by Lucpak, which tells you everything you need to know about the 2002 releases.
I bought all the hybrid SACD's when they came out except for Hot Rocks. Ruby Tuesday is noted for missing vocals during the chorus. There are some songs that I still prefer my London CD's which were mastered by Mobile Fidelity, especially Aftermath UK.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: SKILLS ()
Date: March 6, 2019 11:02

Quote
ThePaleRider
Quote
SFTD


The 2002 dual layer SACDs from ABKRO when played on a good system with a SACD player will sound as good as can be. You will hear a difference between the redbook layer and the SACD layer.

If you want the best sounding Rolling Stones CD's, then you want these releases.

Happy hunting !!!!!!!!

SFTD

Just wondering what will play ABKCO SACD or Japanese SACD today...other than an SACD Player?

A Blu-Ray Player connected via HDMI to DTS-HD Capable Amplifier is the simplest way.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: jsz1002 ()
Date: March 6, 2019 12:48

Most likely a Sony blu ray player. Does any other brand play sacd?

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: March 6, 2019 13:25

Quote
jsz1002

Most likely a Sony blu ray player. Does any other brand play sacd?

Technics SL-G700 - see above: [iorr.org] or [www.Technics.com] .

The Sony UBP-X800(M2) is a 4K-Universal-Disc-Player which plays also SACD: [www.Sony.com] .

Samsung and Oppo don't make Optical-Disc-Players (even 4K) anymore.

There're are still other Manufacturers of SACD-Players:


From German HiFi-Magazine STEREO (3rd column: Prices in €)



From German HiFi-Magazine AUDIO (3rd column: Prices in €, 4th column: SACD-capability)

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Date: March 6, 2019 15:13

Quote
SKILLS
Quote
ThePaleRider
Quote
SFTD


The 2002 dual layer SACDs from ABKRO when played on a good system with a SACD player will sound as good as can be. You will hear a difference between the redbook layer and the SACD layer.

If you want the best sounding Rolling Stones CD's, then you want these releases.

Happy hunting !!!!!!!!

SFTD

Just wondering what will play ABKCO SACD or Japanese SACD today...other than an SACD Player?

A Blu-Ray Player connected via HDMI to DTS-HD Capable Amplifier is the simplest way.

DTS-HD is a format for Blu-ray Discs .... not SACD.

SACD uses DSD.

So,DSD from SACD via HDMI (digital) to DSD capable Pre-Amplifier or Receiver.

Or,better yet,the higher-end SACD players have higher-end DAC's so,the preferred method is to decode the DSD to analog before it leaves the disc player. Via analog outputs.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: filstan ()
Date: March 6, 2019 17:23

Quote
jsz1002
Most likely a Sony blu ray player. Does any other brand play sacd?


I bought a OPPO BDP 105D multi player a few years ago. It is a great machine and supports SACD/CD/DVD/Blu-ray playback. Versatile and compatible with wifi capability. I know they aren't making new machines, but they actively support their products if you get one used.

Winning Ugly VX11 makes solid, valid points worth noting as well, and this applies to the OPPO player I am using.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: March 6, 2019 20:48

Quote
ThePaleRider
Quote
SFTD


The 2002 dual layer SACDs from ABKRO when played on a good system with a SACD player will sound as good as can be. You will hear a difference between the redbook layer and the SACD layer.

If you want the best sounding Rolling Stones CD's, then you want these releases.

Happy hunting !!!!!!!!

SFTD

Just wondering what will play ABKCO SACD or Japanese SACD today...other than an SACD Player?

I trust SFTD on his advice. If money is'nt an issue, go for it.
But when I played my ABKCO SACDs on a Pioneer DVD player(!) and compared it with a SACD player (in a store with impressively expensive speakers) I wasn't impressed by the sound quality difference, while the former machine was considerably cheaper than the latter.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: crholmstrom ()
Date: March 6, 2019 21:28

I really liked the SACD format. Too bad it didn't really catch on, aside from Japan. I have many of the Stones releases & a promo only sampler of the series. Non-Stones, Roxy Music "Avalon" & Jeff Beck "Blow by Blow" are phenomenal.

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: March 6, 2019 22:25

Quote
crholmstrom
I really liked the SACD format. Too bad it didn't really catch on, aside from Japan. I have many of the Stones releases & a promo only sampler of the series. Non-Stones, Roxy Music "Avalon" & Jeff Beck "Blow by Blow" are phenomenal.

Not only is it tragic to not have new SACD's, even rarer are Blu Ray Audio CDs, which blow away just about everything. Plus there was DVD Audio for a while. Has anyone had experience with DVD CDs? What was the sound like compared to other formats?

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: March 6, 2019 22:27

I'm pretty sure OPPO
has stopped producing CD players ….

ROCKMAN

Re: Questions on Stones SACD Issues
Posted by: filstan ()
Date: March 7, 2019 03:44

Yes Rockman they have stopped production, but used machines are available as well as unsold "new" players, and the company backs them. Like I said, I really like the capabilities of my OPPO player and I'm very happy with the purchase. I had high hopes for SACD.....

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