An old joke I learned from Jack Winter. A very funny writer who never quite got the recognition he deserved. One of a breed that are now almost all gone. Gerald Gardner, Bill Dana, Leonard Stern, The Waldman Brothers, Arne Sultan, Marvin Worth, Bill Blatty (Jesuit background notwithstanding) belonged among them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-05 05:30 by Rocky Dijon.

Maybe while there in gay Pareeeee Mick could come up with a
Stones Classic by gluein' Street Fightin' Man and Petrol Blues tagether ….



ROCKMAN

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Rocky Dijon
An old joke I learned from Jack Winter. A very funny writer who never quite got the recognition he deserved. One of a breed that are now almost all gone. Gerald Gardner, Bill Dana, Leonard Stern, The Waldman Brothers, Arne Sultan, Marvin Worth, Bill Blatty (Jesuit background notwithstanding) belonged among them.

Amen. Bless you too.

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Rockman

Maybe while there in gay Pareeeee Mick could come up with a
Stones Classic by gluein' Street Fightin' Man and Petrol Blues tagether ….

Or maybe that "woman bites a dog" headline could inspire him as well.

BITCH....?????????



ROCKMAN

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Rocky Dijon
Just speculation on my part, but Jimmy Rip was musical director and said he put the band together. Additionally, Rick Rubin was the toughest producer Jagger had since Jimmy Miller in telling him he could do better. Between the two, Billy Preston and Benmont Tench made more sense for a rootsy, sometimes funky album of earthy rock, r&b, country, blues, and folk.

For the record, BEING MICK has a scene of Mick, Dave Stewart, and Matt running through "Old Habits Die Hard." When Mick and Dave cut the song in 2004, Matt was not present. Either conflicts or not everyone is as enamored of Mick's campy aide.
Make that aide-de-camp. No letters, please.

True, these guys are definitely rootsier but was the album first developed as a Mick+Matt project with results that didn't please Ahmet Ertegun who got Mick to work with Rick Rubin. I probably still have the Musician magazine that had a lengthy Mick interview when the album came out but I don't remember them going into much detail on how the album had evolved. I do remember Mick saying it had gotten delayed and he had no time to tour as a result before starting work on the next Stones album with Keith.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

so..no news yet about how the recordings are going??
jeroen

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Rockman


Maybe while there in gay Pareeeee Mick could come up with a
Stones Classic by gluein' Street Fightin' Man and Petrol Blues tagether ….

Then other taxes.
The deficit needs to be paid...

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gotdablouse
...was the album first developed as a Mick+Matt project with results that didn't please Ahmet Ertegun who got Mick to work with Rick Rubin. I probably still have the Musician magazine that had a lengthy Mick interview when the album came out but I don't remember them going into much detail on how the album had evolved. I do remember Mick saying it had gotten delayed and he had no time to tour as a result before starting work on the next Stones album with Keith.

Going back to Bill German's reporting at the time, both Jimmy Rip and Steve Jordan were guests at the URBAN JUNGLE end of tour party in August 1990 where Mick and Keith disclosed they were following up the Stones tour with their respective solo albums and solo tours. The plan was to alternate Stones activity with solo activity going forward. This was something that didn't sit well with Bill Wyman and influenced his decision to leave the band.

The point in drudging that up is that a Jagger-Rip partnership was the plan in 1990. I remember the Vanity Fair piece and was surprised at the time to discover Matt Clifford being referred to that way. Admittedly, Matt was very much involved in shaping STEEL WHEELS so it's not surprising he came aboard and took charge. Somewhere along the way, the decision was taken not to go with the classically trained multi-instrumentalist. Whether that was Jimmy's call, Rick Rubin's, Ahmet's, or even Mick's I couldn't say.

It might be worth recalling that when Jeff Beck agreed to return as lead guitarist for PRIMITIVE COOL, he did so under the belief he was not just musical director, but writing the songs with Mick. He arrived in the studio to find he was another hired hand who Mick could shout "work for the money" in front of his solo. Likewise, Glyn Johns returned to engineer the BLACK AND BLUE sessions under the belief he would be the credited producer as well as engineer. There seems to be a pattern of promising people greater input and then changing direction.

Interesting points, Rocky.
Any views on the Richards/Jordan partnership? How it has evolved and progressed etc.

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mtaylor

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Rockman


Maybe while there in gay Pareeeee Mick could come up with a
Stones Classic by gluein' Street Fightin' Man and Petrol Blues tagether ….

Then other taxes.
The deficit needs to be paid...

Actually it doesn't. And in fact it never will. That the "deficit" needs to be "paid" is a myth perpetually used by the party out of power. It's just an imaginary number on an imaginary ledger. Don't fall for that BS.

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jlowe
Any views on the Richards/Jordan partnership? How it has evolved and progressed etc.

There's not a whole lot out there to work with because when it's Keith and he's mastered the art of giving great soundbites while saying nothing substantive.

What sticks out at me is that it was late in the day before it was publicized that Steve had co-producer and co-writing credits on TALK IS CHEAP. Let's face it, when you're a respected session drummer working with A-list talent and have never been a songwriter and producer before, it's not exactly typical to suddenly become one. It almost seemed like a thank-you from Keith for being part of the band feeling Keith needs to be creative.

MAIN OFFENDER was all about the Winos and attempted to be more democratic with songwriting credits and Waddy sharing production chores. That democratic spirit fell apart on tour with Charley Drayton turned into a full-time bass player and quitting half-way through as a consequence. Keith wasn't quite the same after STEEL WHEELS/URBAN JUNGLE. When touring in 1988, he loved starting over with a band the same way he loved starting over with Patti. By 1992/1993, he no longer wanted to ride on tour buses and was decidedly moodier with the odd cutting remark onstage (my interpretation only, of course).

In 1996, Keith was frustrated in his attempts to meld the Winos and Wingless Angels into a combined unit with Rob Fraboni producing the sessions (a vision similar to what Dave Stewart would later attempt with SuperHeavy, albeit with only one frontman). While the album was abandoned/cannibalized for BRIDGES TO BABYLON, Keith appeared to have soured on the Winos. Someone always has to take the blame when chemistry isn't there.

When Keith went back to work with Rob Fraboni in 2000 and 2001 it was with George Recile (who had been the drummer and, along with Rob Fraboni had also co-produced Ivan Neville's THANKS album in the mid-1990s). Recile's sound is nearly identical to Steve Jordan's at these sessions with Fraboni which resulted in Keith's versions of "You Win Again" and "Still a Fool." None of the other Winos were involved. No third Keith album was forthcoming as it appeared despite having forged a great sounding band once again, the chemistry was not there to create new music in the intuitive fashion Keith requires.

It wouldn't be until Keith finally relented and reunited at long last with Steve in 2011 that a number of these mid-1990s and early 2000s songs were dusted off and began to take form and coalesce into CROSSEYED HEART. It is interesting that Keith played a number of shows between 2000 and 2005 with Steve, Ivan, and Waddy, but appeared not to have recorded with them. Someone claimed to have attended a Winos session in 2000 or 2001, but I suspect they saw Keith with Receli and company and made the wrong assumption unless more reliable proof comes to the fore.

I honestly think Steve Jordan is not only talented, but an incredibly nice guy. He's also willing to do what the rest of the Stones will not which is stick with Keith through weeks or months of chasing songs until inspiration hits. I don't think CROSSEYED HEART would exist without him. It's too much to claim Keith cannot write without Steve, but it is fair to say he needs him if he wants an album. Again, my speculation only.

Good stuff on both KR/SJ and the WS sessions. I didn't know about that end of the tour "chat" about solo albums but I do remember reading that they would be working on solo project before going back to the Stones (so that no one would get "worried" this time !). In hindsight it's too bad because between them they had enough good songs to make a great album that would have generated more interest than two solo projects...

Matt must have felt a bit letdown after reading in VF that he was Mick's musical "aide de camp" and then only being reinvited in the fold nearly 10 years later for Goddess (and of course the 4 pre-production credits on Forty Licks) ? And it's unlikely he "held them for ransom" like Preston had done for LYL, causing (at least partly) his demise. I wonder if Bill German didn't touch on his being ousted in his book, will have to look it up.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Someone somewhere once claimed Matt and Bill's hi-jinx during Keith's set at the final show in 1990 sent Keith into a bit of a tizzy that had repercussions later. You might recall the photo of Bill playing bass while sitting on Matt's shoulders both grinning as they walked up behind Keith who was at the microphone. The only time something like that ever happened at a Stones show I believe.

Of course, people speculate and speculation eventually becomes claims of insider knowledge if it passes through the right channels so who knows, though the incident itself did happen.

As for Matt, he was behind the "Symphonic Music of The Rolling Stones" project on which Mick sang an overblown version of "Angie" (the first two minutes of which sound like it came from GONE WITH THE WIND). Matt also was playing piano while Mick sang "Streets of Berlin" for the movie, BENT. Nice audio, but seeing Mick in drag kind of ruins the effect for me. You don't want to see Mick wearing Jerry's lingerie after all. Certain things go without saying or should.

Anyway, Matt was still percolating away in the background throughout the 1990s and they were writing songs together by 1999 for what would become GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY. Watching the Eric Idle-scripted Python sketch that Mick, Matt, and Charlie filmed a few years ago gives one the impression Matt is a houseboy who made good. I have a tough time reconciling the amazingly talented man who helped shape "Terrifying," "Continental Drift," "Can't Be Seen," "Blinded by Love," and the vocal and brass arrangements on "Slipping Away" with the goofy guy playing the triangle with all the enthusiasm of Davy Jones soloing on tambourine during "Brown Sugar" in HAVANA MOON. Somewhere, there's a genuine talent. Maybe their next project will showcase it again.

Didn't Matt play on and co-produce Angel In My Heart?

Matt played on it and arranged it with Mick. No production credits for Matt until GITD.

And I adore "Angel in My Heart" including Matt's very obvious contributions. Again, that talent isn't evident when I listen to his work with Mick over the past 17 years. It may be he deserves credit for something like "Hide Away" or "Rain Fall Down," but I don't know that one way or the other.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-05 23:01 by Rocky Dijon.

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Bungo

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mtaylor

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Rockman


Maybe while there in gay Pareeeee Mick could come up with a
Stones Classic by gluein' Street Fightin' Man and Petrol Blues tagether ….

Then other taxes.
The deficit needs to be paid...

Actually it doesn't. And in fact it never will. That the "deficit" needs to be "paid" is a myth perpetually used by the party out of power. It's just an imaginary number on an imaginary ledger. Don't fall for that BS.

Or you become like an Italy or Greece and get stuck in debt and no money for initiatives when the next crisis comes.

Hi Rocky
Many thanks for your very insightful comments re Keith and Steve Jordan ...much appreciated.

Wasn’t there a personal issue with Charley Drayton having to do with aomeome’s girlfriend?

There were a few stories about what happened with Charley Drayton. The oldest one I remember was that he quit after Keith's 49th birthday party. Allegedly, he did corner Keith and ask about replacing Bill Wyman in front of witnesses and Keith told him he wasn't right for the gig. A few people told that story some of whom were there so I'm guessing it's true. However, the bit about quitting the Winos tour over it was probably more a matter of people drawing their own conclusions.

Later I heard there was bad blood between Steve and Charley. It took awhile before someone finally opened up and said it was about rotating between bass and drums. On the second Winos tour, Steve wanted to stay behind the drum kit and Charley didn't like the idea. The disagreement grew until Keith had to do something about it and he sided with Steve.

The interesting thing there is while Steve really was dominant on drums for the 1992 shows, if Charley asked about replacing Bill after the European tour, would he be upset just playing bass for Keith?

Somewhere I think I heard something about a wife or girlfriend being the issue between Steve and Charley, but I don't think anyone ever offered specific details so I wasn't certain if it was speculation or a way to shut people up from asking questions. Not sure if Charley was with Chrissie Amphlett yet and not sure if Steve and Megan Voss were together then, but I suspect not in both cases.

Jerome Smith (who replaced Charley) was close friends with both Charley and Steve (and part of the same circle as Doug Wimbish, Darryl Jones, and Jimmy Rip). The interesting thing is that Jerome also played on some of the rehearsal sessions for WANDERING SPIRIT and was tipped early on to replace Bill, but I don't believe he actually ever auditioned for the Stones.

Strange times and we'll probably never know the full story. You can only ask people so many questions about specific incidents before they clam up. That's understandable.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-06 00:29 by Rocky Dijon.

Jerome now resides in Melbourne ….
Have spoke with him a number of times ….. really nice guy...



Jerome Smith with Ben Waters band -- Cherry Bar Melbourne …...



ROCKMAN

The dream would have been every album starting with VOODOO LOUNGE with Joey Spampinato or Jeff Sarli on acoustic bass and with Ben Waters' piano on most of the tracks and Chuck on Hammond or Wurlitzer with Bobby on saxophone. No disrespect to Darryl. I like Darryl, but Bill was such a unique player that an acoustic bass really seems the closest you could get to match him. Same with Bill Plummer on some of EXILE.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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MisterDDDD
Keith looks good...

Sure gets a lot of mileage out of that Mavis shirt...
Not knockin' him, I like how he likes what he likes.

Yeah, Keith likes what he likes, he's probably got 25 of the same shirt and rotates them. Ditto for some of his other perennial favorites.

Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind...

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mtaylor

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Bungo

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mtaylor

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Rockman


Maybe while there in gay Pareeeee Mick could come up with a
Stones Classic by gluein' Street Fightin' Man and Petrol Blues tagether ….

Then other taxes.
The deficit needs to be paid...

Actually it doesn't. And in fact it never will. That the "deficit" needs to be "paid" is a myth perpetually used by the party out of power. It's just an imaginary number on an imaginary ledger. Don't fall for that BS.

Or you become like an Italy or Greece and get stuck in debt and no money for initiatives when the next crisis comes.

Rather than stuck in debt I'd say stuck in an asimmetrical and disfunctional monetary union.This subject has been widly covered in many scientific papers and books and is common knowledge in the field (regardless of the current propaganda).

Such great insight Rocky; on all these last posts, the whole page. Immediately several questions popped up.
The whole solo tours era IMO was healthy. By then they had made up, and the band was firing on all cylinders and the respective solo albums were fantastic. I loved that Ron Wood joined in and did 'Slide on This"; and Charlie too was putting out "Long Ago.." and "Warm & Tender". Bernard was most likely the busiest of the bunch, since he is on all the albums.
I never understood what happened with Charlie Drayton and the Winos. I heard it was a major rift between Jordan and him.
The Winos were so incredibly good. I remember thinking just how amazing it was that Keith instinctively and w/o fail got the chemistry right. The type of musician too. Someone can seem right, but not be a good choice. (E.g. I think Charlie's call on DJ was terrible.)

And Rubin and "Wandering Spirit" is also an interesting tale. Jagger and his socios. I warmed up to Jimmy Rip; slowly and barely. I still don't think too much of him. His persona is based on emulating someone right next door. Dave Stewart went from the silent, mysterious synth wizard to glam guitar rocker. He is a good writer and producer. Much better than Rip. Matt Clifford, I am sorry, I just can not stand him.
I was disappointed that Jagger was not enough of a pure artist and musician to be able and stomach a real producer in the booth. To see the results, and the reviews, and embrace it.
Do you think that Jagger may prefer to do a solo album, instead of a Stones album at this point in time?

Just my opinion, but I think Mick wants a Stones album before another solo album. It was said/specualted elsewhere on the board that they both want their own way and I think that's likely the case. Their relationship is fascinating so long as it doesn't get in the way of delivering the goods. I think it's fair to say that has happened in various forms, but not enough for them to give up completely.

As for Charley Drayton, unless he or Steve Jordan speak about it, we may never know the truth about what happened between legs of the second Winos tour. Likewise, I can't imagine Charlie, Ronnie, Don, etc. opening up with complete honesty about interrelationships of the band in the past ten years. Not only would it betray friendships, it would get in the way of the band's ability to work in these final years. So all we have is speculation.

I was really impressed with Jimmy's playing on WANDERING SPIRIT. He's a very versatile guitarist if you've heard him play with Television for instance. He also lost the Keith look long ago. Last I knew, he was based in South America. He seemed like a nice enough guy when I spoke with him, albeit a bit leery of too many questions, but that's understandable. No one who knows them wants to see their name attributed to a nasty quote in a tabloid or in the latest tell-all book.

As for Matt, I'm genuinely mixed. I didn't understand why he came aboard in the first place, but was really impressed with his work on the STEEL WHEELS album, particularly when I learned the extent of it (he and Bernard arranging backing vocals, his percussion programming, and the interesting sounds he brought the album). While I didn't care for his sampling on tour, his French horn was a welcome touch. Likewise, "Angel in My Heart" was terrific. He seemed like the latest in a long line of brilliant session players. Starting with GODDESS, I've been less enamored of his work. Though I do love "Hide Away" and "Rain Fall Down" and I don't know how much of their sound is his contribution, the rest often seems sterile or artificial to me. Who knows, it could be my age. I was still a young man in the 1990s. Now I'm pushing 50. Time and your environment can change your perception of art.

I've been reading about the current "un-rest" in Paris. Looks like a second French Revolution in the making.