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I missed 68-72 in your post
Hadde they finished the acoustic Child Of The Moon it would have been a contender, imo. Some of the versions of Family also sound better. Parts of the earlier takes of Loving Cup sound great.
It's impossible to compare, though, those versions weren't finished...
Totally agree. From the Golden Era, there are many priceless boots, outtakes, but they did always release the best version IMO too. Now some UNRELEASED outtakes remain a mystery, because we will never know.
And in the late post-'89 era it is really only 'Voodoo" that I personally am disappointed by.
Thanks Dande, i see what you mean, it's better in some ways, Micks vocals are better and some of the guitar work is clearer, but there is something sacred about these songs, the final take was the one i think, just something about it that for the life of me i can't explain, its the whole is better than the sum of it's parts kind of thing, less is more and all of that
Maybe it's that Mick's voice is more subtle in the final mix, that beast is tamed, it could be that.
I think a lot of the problem with the Stones since the golden era is that Mick is too high in the mix, on the Stones greatest albums Mick is more in the music as opposed to over it. Perhaps he is too involved with the producing and mixing at the end of the albums since the early 80's, i always get the impression when Keith buggers off on holiday Mick hangs around in the studio and starts playing around with the mixing board haha.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-09 23:45 by keithsman.
A working mix of the LP version.
wow, keith sounds great on it.
More of Keith's fuzz bass, too?
You have a point there. Some sort of focus is missing in many latter-day Stones albums. Like they were not being able to bring the projects to end gracefully, or that there is something missing in the very basic elements, in Jagger-Richards songs themselves. I don't think any masterpiece was lost due to song selection as far as VOODOO LOUNGE go, but yeah, like Jagger, I am not totally satisfied with the selection Don Was did. That Mick and Keith had given him that significiant role, speaks also volumes about that the album wasn't totally in in their hands or under their artistic vision. Was it because they couldn't agree together and needed an outsider to make the decisions (not to end up fighting like with EMOTIONAL RESCUE?), or was it because they didn't really bother any longer? They didn't have that 'vision' anymore?
I think studying VOODOO LOUNGE and its creation might tell something quite revealing why the Stones have been quite non-profilic ever since. In a theory it looked like that everything was perfect. The band spending much time together in a studio and giving quite a lof time and space for the project. For example, STEEL WHEELS was a rather rushed project by Stones standards by then. But now they were doing the album 'like they used to'. They also had a new producer to whom a lot of power was given to give the album a needed focus and freshness. Jagger had tried that with Rubin in WANDERING SPIRIT with both commercially and artistically good results (one might wonder had that experience something to do with the choice and role of Don Was).
VOODOO LOUNGE turned to be a huge success commercially, and it is an okay album by all means. It also sounded good in that contemporary classic rock-friendly scene. But that's not good enough for me: to me it is a mother of all Stones-by-numbers albums, and since its relaese I have had difficulties to take them seriously (I have sometimes called the album 'Stones For Dummies...' there is nothing wrong with the songs themselves if one likes a standard Rolling Stones sound, but that's not good enough for a spoiled fan like me).
What the hell happened?
One could say that the quality of MAIN OFFENDER type songs Keith with which he both commercially and artistically (forget his hardcore fanbase with their acquired taste) flopped with wasn't the source of inspiration for a great Rolling Stones album. The best of them, "Love is Strong", was the leading single of the album, but while having a Stones fan ear-friendly surface, with that harmonica and all, it is a rather forgettable song in the long run. I still recall listening it in 40 LICKS and being almost shocked how cheap and thin the song sounded like in that collection of bigger-than-life songs. Formally okay but the substance missing.
But more than Keith I 'blame' Jagger here. I dare to claim - sorry Mick - that his heart wasn't totally involved while making that album. Or if it initially was, he somehow lost his interest during the process. Almost none of that drive and focus he had in WANDERING SPIRIT - an album of Rolling Stones style music - is left. Lyrically VOODOO LOUNGE is his worst album ever. Full of cheap and hasty-sounding choices - 'sharks will cry', indeed... And how banal are the opening lines of "Love Is Strong" (the title itself being one of the lamest they ever come up with, followed later titles like "Anybody Seen My Baby?" and "Streets of Love" - damn, all of them being leading singles from their albums!) - true that those are Keith's but Jagger wasn't bothered to write anything better. Artistic laziness. Add the odd fact that he gave so much power to Was. That's not the Jagger 'control freak' we are familiar with.
I cannot help but VOODOO LOUNGE marks the very moment when Mick and Keith, no matter how much time and space was given, couldn't any longer 'click' together. And Don Was no any bloody Jimmy Miller either (but the core problem wasn't in that direction). Magic just didn't happen any longer. I have a picture that Jagger made his own conclusion of that, and has not given a new chance since then. Both BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG were made by a different method, as it looks like the new album is going to be as well.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 20:45 by Doxa.
Total rubbish , i absolutely love Voodoo Lounge, brilliant album. Since Tattoo You its their best effort.
It's an improvement on Dirty Work that preceded it, and its better than Bridges To Babylon and ABB that followed it, i can't see where you are coming from in dissing this album at every turn, it's a good solid album that i play very often, i have a lot of affection for this album, but i agree with you that it's the last time Mick and Keith looked out of the same telescope together, but i don't agree that it was the very moment they no longer clicked, i would say that happened on the next album.
Stones by numbers i hear you say, well look if it pleases Stones fans what's the problem. If they can't recreate Exile then this is a good second best.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 21:42 by keithsman.
I haven't heard it, but Teddy was present during the recording sessions and described how they recorded a very long version (like they used to), live in the studio. Without bass, btw.
So, I used that as an example of the working method.
Take it easy, man. It's just a matter of differing opinions, so no problem there. Good for you if you like the album so much. I like it too, like I do of every Stones album, but I don't hear the brilliance you do.
I consider BRIDGES TO BABYLON to be slightly better album than VOODOO LOUNGE. I think that has something to do with Jagger and Richards not even trying to click, but constructed the album more or less separately, originating from intended solo projects. Neither needed to do compromises or having being inspired by other's doings. To me the album contains best individual songs from the latter day era, such as "Out of Control" and "How Can I Stop", even though as a whole it is a bit uneven and incohesive.
As pointed here, "Flip The Switch" is made by their old traditional working method, but I think that it is one of the weakest songs in the album.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-11 00:40 by Doxa.
Bloody hell!
If someone would put a gun against my head and demand me to name the worst released Rolling Stones song ever, "Moon Is Up" would be pretty high on my list with "Back to Zero", but this version is so awful that it is hilarous. They should have released this instead the dull and embarrasing finished Jagger one! At least one could have laughed one's asses off with no shame!
- Doxa
That's rich coming from you ("take it easy" ) seriously !!
In light of what you said just now i think it will be interesting to see how this new album pans out. I like your comment that you thought BTB was better because by that point the Glimmers did not even try to click, i just wonder if you think it better they not click on the new album. It's an interesting way of looking at it, i said earlier today that it will be a good album because it will be two halves, Micks half and keith's, as long as they throw some fairy dust on each others work this could end up great. Its the compromise that could spoil this album, i'd rather have the best Micks got in competition with the best keith's got, and no saving the best stuff for their solo albums
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-11 11:27 by keithsman.
Well, from the base we know by now, it looks like that the method they use now is more than that of BRIDGES TO BABYLON than that of VOODOO LOUNGE. Will that mean the album will have better chances to be better? That's impossible to say, as is always the case with creativity. We might learn from the history and do some educated guesses, but still one can not predict the future or the outcome. It can be a masterpiece or a total turd (or most likely, something in between).
I think the way they now are making the album comes out of necessity: that of them being old semi-retired men who really don't need any new music to survive. Keith sounds like making the album with the same style and frequency as he did his latest solo album: just some sessions here and then, thrown within a four years time frame or so. Mick writes and records his demos occasionally when he feels like (and sounds being rather profilic when he has that mood on) - that seems to fit nicely to Keith's schedule as well. Mick and Keith meet occasionally (probably to discuss about what to do with their songs and exchanging ideas). The whole band is asked studio for a week or so occasionally to do something with those songs Mick and Keith provide to them.
I simply think that the old style of making records by the whole band gathering to a studio and let the songs develop bit by bit by jamming etc. is something out of their reach. Simply due to their age and interest. Keith might occasionally talk about it, and many fans seems to have nostalgic ideas about it, but I think that those days are gone by; it is a part of Rolling Stones history and folklore now. Like I argued above, VOODOO LOUNGE was the last real effort to apply that method. (And my estimation is that VOODOO LOUNGE proved that the method had really run out of gas. A pragmatic guy like Mick Jagger concluded that the time and money invested in it doesn't pay off in remarkably if any better results. Jagger has always had some complaints about it, but I think he tolerated it, and live with it, as long as the results were worth of the 'sacrifice').
What goes for Mick and Keith 'clicking' or not, my take is that what happened to them was a result of natural history. They matured up as individual and independent artists (with not the world's smallest egos) and especially after both of them making solo records (although the development starting already in the early 70's), they were able to do just fine without the other. At some point their co-work started to be more like making compromises than that of inspiring each other. It was like what happened to John Lennon and Paul McCartney, although the Glimmers' fruitful co-operation lased longer and they were destinied to continue their careers under the umbrella notion of The Rolling Stones. Like with Lennon/McCartney, one could easily say that the stuff they did separately was not as strong as they did together, but it was a result of natural evolution. When there was not any longer that spark and feel of mutual inspiration, what one can do?
But that said, the best and most memorable results the Stones gained when Mick and Keith were 'clicking' (and with that the band was lead by one shared vision, not by two making forced compromises) and the band using that traditional, time consuming method to make records. But they were rather young and hungry guys back then... People happen to change when they get older...
- Doxa
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-11 14:31 by Doxa.
It is always be wise to be suspicious about what Kent says, but for the sake of argument let us assume him being accurate there. Namely, it cohers very well with the impression if we listen the earlier version next to the finished one, in which, like in many songs in that album, the band sounds oddily tired.
I'll take that as an early symptom of them being victims of their own working methods. That of them trying make perfect recordings with endless effort to discover the 'right' take or angle, which actually is damn demanding way to make music - it asks concentration, inspiration and stamina from a rather big group of people. In the case of "If You Can't Rock Me" the method starts to be like a routine than coming from a true artistic vision and inspiration. That of the maestro of the song having his deepest adventures in dopeville most probably didn't help either...
- Doxa
Excellent post Doxa, its a bit like those marriages when the couple keep going for the children, to all intents and purposes the marriage is over but they keep up appearances out of love for the children and respect for each other.( Oh and of course i nearly forgot "the money" )
I wouldn't be surprised if the studio time involved with this forthcoming album is 90% Mick without Keith in the studio, and then Keith's in the studio without Mick for an equal amount of time. Who is putting in more time than the other is anyone's guess but it's all for the babies.
I think they work together only when it's essential and then get the remaining Stones involved together when the time is right.
It's my guess that they don't argue much these days, they work around each other trying not to cause confrontation, basically who needs it, they are too old and tired for that level of passion in their work.
It is what it is and this is the only way we are going to receive an album from them, emotions run deep with Mick and Keith and there is no joy in going to that place again, working closely and cohesively nose to nose can stir up all sorts of best forgotten memories and the ego's can clash at close quarters.
It's possibly why it took them 11 years to decide to make this record, and it could also be why its been such a long time coming in the making, they tread carefully and respectfully around each other , and that takes time and consideration. I think they might have gotten at loggerheads with each other earlier on while making this album and that could have been the wall Don spoke of, Blue And Lonesome was a fantastic diversion from the possible conflict between them, i wouldn't be surprised if they have stayed right out of each others way finishing the remainder of the album.
I could be completely wrong and talking complete bollocks though
Not to disagree with any of your observations here Doxa, but I think a huge part of the problem has been how many songs they included on the latter day albums. With the exception of Exile, I don't think the Stones have any business making double albums, maybe most bands shouldn't. Very rarely critically successful they appear to be hard to do, to maintain a high level of quality.
If instead they spent more time developing the top 10 or 12 songs I think we'd end up with a more satisfying outcome. Moon is up? WTF...that is garbage...should have been dumped immediately but maybe they wanted to fill up the CD for extra 'value'. No thanks.
It's been a while, but isn't this the finished backing tracks with Keith humming/wailing on top of it?
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Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 9, 2018 19:23
Quote
dcba
RE "You Can't Rock Me" Nick Kent who attended some IORR sessions said that each take of these songs was worse than the previous and when a super-dire take was in the can Keef'd usually say : "that's it, that's the one! We got it!".
I missed 68-72 in your post
Hadde they finished the acoustic Child Of The Moon it would have been a contender, imo. Some of the versions of Family also sound better. Parts of the earlier takes of Loving Cup sound great.
It's impossible to compare, though, those versions weren't finished...
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: November 9, 2018 20:13
Quote
dcbaQuote
Doxa
Thank you both of you for sharing these. For a Stones nerd like me it is always interesting to hear works in progress, and thereby witnessing the whole creativity process of the Stones (especially that of Jagger/Richards colloboration).
Doxa
Especially when the leaked bootleg tunes are better than the final official MJ/KR-sanctioned release...
Said differently I never heard a working version of a song from the golden (68-72) era that was better than the official version, which proves that during these years the Twins' flair was unparalleled. They made NO mistakes.
Now (and it's my opinion) the release of the "Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue" around 1996/97 proved that the Twins had lost quite a fair share of their flair : they were putting 2nd rate material on the album and were putting away embryos of songs that had a great potential (like "You Got It Made").
Totally agree. From the Golden Era, there are many priceless boots, outtakes, but they did always release the best version IMO too. Now some UNRELEASED outtakes remain a mystery, because we will never know.
And in the late post-'89 era it is really only 'Voodoo" that I personally am disappointed by.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Sipuncula
()
Date: November 9, 2018 20:38
"Keith's Voodoo Lounge" on Stew is great. It just shows how much input into the creative process Keith had at that point. It may have been the last time they really functioned as a band on a start-to-finish process of making an album. The 1990s were a really creative time for the them, criminally overlooked by many here, but it really becomes evident if you listen to Brew/Stew/Residue. With that at least as a foundation, I concede that it's a valid point of contention as to what ideas should or shouldn't have been developed further or which songs would have been better left to B sides.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: November 9, 2018 23:13
Thanks Dande, i see what you mean, it's better in some ways, Micks vocals are better and some of the guitar work is clearer, but there is something sacred about these songs, the final take was the one i think, just something about it that for the life of me i can't explain, its the whole is better than the sum of it's parts kind of thing, less is more and all of that
Maybe it's that Mick's voice is more subtle in the final mix, that beast is tamed, it could be that.
I think a lot of the problem with the Stones since the golden era is that Mick is too high in the mix, on the Stones greatest albums Mick is more in the music as opposed to over it. Perhaps he is too involved with the producing and mixing at the end of the albums since the early 80's, i always get the impression when Keith buggers off on holiday Mick hangs around in the studio and starts playing around with the mixing board haha.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-09 23:45 by keithsman.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 10, 2018 03:45
A working mix of the LP version.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: November 10, 2018 07:14
wow, keith sounds great on it.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 10, 2018 13:37
Quote
GasLightStreet
A working mix of the LP version.
More of Keith's fuzz bass, too?
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: November 10, 2018 14:01
like to see him take a whack at monkey man.
go for it keith.
go for it keith.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: November 10, 2018 14:13
THATS IT!!!
a sure crowd pleaser. Mick does 'before they make me run'
keith does "miss you' and they do it TOGETHER ON THE SAME MIKE
looking adoringly at each other. spot light turns blue,
they hug. smoke starts to rise, charlie starts to roll softly
darryl whips out a cello & timo or whatever that guys name is?, holds
the bow. soft pink spotlight. HIT IT.
good good looking good..
keith is all passionate, looking directly into michael's eyes.
'i miss you dammit. i miss you @#$%& i miss you man honey honey honey i misss you.... play Bill's part Darryl man!!!!'
mick pirouettes gracefully, somehow his hand never leaves keith's shoulder...
he's moving slowly now; thobbing gently in time with the music, it's hypnotic; he's looking directly into Keith's eyes, their noses only seperated
by inches....a drop of sweat gathers than starts to trickle, slowly, gently
blotching the once-crisp edges of Keith's bandana, whoa... as if were ripping on the thames, or some english river they are following.
keith should also take a whack at that one.
good luck. mick couldn't handle it; might as well.
worse comes to worse it's not about to suck any worse..
.......waterloo sunset lighting...
(ray wrote jay-jay-flash with bill so there's a double 'stones connection')-------
'booze and pills and powders you can choose....' mick offers with soft melody.
'i choose drugs!' Keith shouts.
the crowd weeps
then cheers
love is strong
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 14:24 by hopkins.
a sure crowd pleaser. Mick does 'before they make me run'
keith does "miss you' and they do it TOGETHER ON THE SAME MIKE
looking adoringly at each other. spot light turns blue,
they hug. smoke starts to rise, charlie starts to roll softly
darryl whips out a cello & timo or whatever that guys name is?, holds
the bow. soft pink spotlight. HIT IT.
good good looking good..
keith is all passionate, looking directly into michael's eyes.
'i miss you dammit. i miss you @#$%& i miss you man honey honey honey i misss you.... play Bill's part Darryl man!!!!'
mick pirouettes gracefully, somehow his hand never leaves keith's shoulder...
he's moving slowly now; thobbing gently in time with the music, it's hypnotic; he's looking directly into Keith's eyes, their noses only seperated
by inches....a drop of sweat gathers than starts to trickle, slowly, gently
blotching the once-crisp edges of Keith's bandana, whoa... as if were ripping on the thames, or some english river they are following.
keith should also take a whack at that one.
good luck. mick couldn't handle it; might as well.
worse comes to worse it's not about to suck any worse..
.......waterloo sunset lighting...
(ray wrote jay-jay-flash with bill so there's a double 'stones connection')-------
'booze and pills and powders you can choose....' mick offers with soft melody.
'i choose drugs!' Keith shouts.
the crowd weeps
then cheers
love is strong
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 14:24 by hopkins.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
rollmops
()
Date: November 10, 2018 14:38
Keith's singing style is rough, not commercially friendly; it is definitely an acquired taste compared to Mick Jagger's. I like them both.
Each style has its own quality, point of view and sensibility. It is artistically fantastic that the stones have those 2 voices in their arsenal and they have used them well during their long career.
Rockandroll,
Mops
Each style has its own quality, point of view and sensibility. It is artistically fantastic that the stones have those 2 voices in their arsenal and they have used them well during their long career.
Rockandroll,
Mops
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 10, 2018 20:29
Quote
dcbaQuote
Doxa
Thank you both of you for sharing these. For a Stones nerd like me it is always interesting to hear works in progress, and thereby witnessing the whole creativity process of the Stones (especially that of Jagger/Richards colloboration).
Doxa
Especially when the leaked bootleg tunes are better than the final official MJ/KR-sanctioned release...
Said differently I never heard a working version of a song from the golden (68-72) era that was better than the official version, which proves that during these years the Twins' flair was unparalleled. They made NO mistakes.
Now (and it's my opinion) the release of the "Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue" around 1996/97 proved that the Twins had lost quite a fair share of their flair : they were putting 2nd rate material on the album and were putting away embryos of songs that had a great potential (like "You Got It Made").
You have a point there. Some sort of focus is missing in many latter-day Stones albums. Like they were not being able to bring the projects to end gracefully, or that there is something missing in the very basic elements, in Jagger-Richards songs themselves. I don't think any masterpiece was lost due to song selection as far as VOODOO LOUNGE go, but yeah, like Jagger, I am not totally satisfied with the selection Don Was did. That Mick and Keith had given him that significiant role, speaks also volumes about that the album wasn't totally in in their hands or under their artistic vision. Was it because they couldn't agree together and needed an outsider to make the decisions (not to end up fighting like with EMOTIONAL RESCUE?), or was it because they didn't really bother any longer? They didn't have that 'vision' anymore?
I think studying VOODOO LOUNGE and its creation might tell something quite revealing why the Stones have been quite non-profilic ever since. In a theory it looked like that everything was perfect. The band spending much time together in a studio and giving quite a lof time and space for the project. For example, STEEL WHEELS was a rather rushed project by Stones standards by then. But now they were doing the album 'like they used to'. They also had a new producer to whom a lot of power was given to give the album a needed focus and freshness. Jagger had tried that with Rubin in WANDERING SPIRIT with both commercially and artistically good results (one might wonder had that experience something to do with the choice and role of Don Was).
VOODOO LOUNGE turned to be a huge success commercially, and it is an okay album by all means. It also sounded good in that contemporary classic rock-friendly scene. But that's not good enough for me: to me it is a mother of all Stones-by-numbers albums, and since its relaese I have had difficulties to take them seriously (I have sometimes called the album 'Stones For Dummies...' there is nothing wrong with the songs themselves if one likes a standard Rolling Stones sound, but that's not good enough for a spoiled fan like me).
What the hell happened?
One could say that the quality of MAIN OFFENDER type songs Keith with which he both commercially and artistically (forget his hardcore fanbase with their acquired taste) flopped with wasn't the source of inspiration for a great Rolling Stones album. The best of them, "Love is Strong", was the leading single of the album, but while having a Stones fan ear-friendly surface, with that harmonica and all, it is a rather forgettable song in the long run. I still recall listening it in 40 LICKS and being almost shocked how cheap and thin the song sounded like in that collection of bigger-than-life songs. Formally okay but the substance missing.
But more than Keith I 'blame' Jagger here. I dare to claim - sorry Mick - that his heart wasn't totally involved while making that album. Or if it initially was, he somehow lost his interest during the process. Almost none of that drive and focus he had in WANDERING SPIRIT - an album of Rolling Stones style music - is left. Lyrically VOODOO LOUNGE is his worst album ever. Full of cheap and hasty-sounding choices - 'sharks will cry', indeed... And how banal are the opening lines of "Love Is Strong" (the title itself being one of the lamest they ever come up with, followed later titles like "Anybody Seen My Baby?" and "Streets of Love" - damn, all of them being leading singles from their albums!) - true that those are Keith's but Jagger wasn't bothered to write anything better. Artistic laziness. Add the odd fact that he gave so much power to Was. That's not the Jagger 'control freak' we are familiar with.
I cannot help but VOODOO LOUNGE marks the very moment when Mick and Keith, no matter how much time and space was given, couldn't any longer 'click' together. And Don Was no any bloody Jimmy Miller either (but the core problem wasn't in that direction). Magic just didn't happen any longer. I have a picture that Jagger made his own conclusion of that, and has not given a new chance since then. Both BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG were made by a different method, as it looks like the new album is going to be as well.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 20:45 by Doxa.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
gotdablouse
()
Date: November 10, 2018 20:54
Based on how the VL sessions took place, writing sessions in Barbados for Mick and Keith (see Residue) and then endless sessions for the whole band together in Ireland at Ronnie's place, I always thought that the Keith versions that first appeared on "Voodoo Stew" in 1996 were more or less finished versions he'd gone back to record a vocal on, for fun or to make a point, i.e. not demos he worked on and that Mick polished up at the last minute, as what happened for with "One More Shot" in 2012.
Where on earth did you hear an "early version" of Flip the Switch ?!
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 20:57 by gotdablouse.
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I think there are examples of both. Sometimes, the unfinished versions are better (Keep Up Blues and some of the SW-tracks spring to mind).
However, LIS and YGMR really got a good makeover that improved the songs, imo.
I find it fascinating to listen to the development of their tunes as well. Some of the the early attemps are very long (the SG-tracks, Flip The Switch, YGR, for instance). We can litterally hear them searching for sweet stuff to add and trying out different things. Surprisingly, they often keep the backing tracks of many of those versions for the finished version. Then, they edit them down and do the overdubs and the final touches.
Where on earth did you hear an "early version" of Flip the Switch ?!
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 20:57 by gotdablouse.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: November 10, 2018 21:37
Quote
DoxaQuote
dcbaQuote
Doxa
Thank you both of you for sharing these. For a Stones nerd like me it is always interesting to hear works in progress, and thereby witnessing the whole creativity process of the Stones (especially that of Jagger/Richards colloboration).
Doxa
Especially when the leaked bootleg tunes are better than the final official MJ/KR-sanctioned release...
Said differently I never heard a working version of a song from the golden (68-72) era that was better than the official version, which proves that during these years the Twins' flair was unparalleled. They made NO mistakes.
Now (and it's my opinion) the release of the "Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue" around 1996/97 proved that the Twins had lost quite a fair share of their flair : they were putting 2nd rate material on the album and were putting away embryos of songs that had a great potential (like "You Got It Made").
You have a point there. Some sort of focus is missing in many latter-day Stones albums. Like they were not being able to bring the projects to end gracefully, or that there is something missing in the very basic elements, in Jagger-Richards songs themselves. I don't think any masterpiece was lost due to song selection as far as VOODOO LOUNGE go, but yeah, like Jagger, I am not totally satisfied with the selection Don Was did. That Mick and Keith had given him that significiant role, speaks also volumes about that the album wasn't totally in in their hands or under their artistic vision. Was it because they couldn't agree together and needed an outsider to make the decisions (not to end up fighting like with EMOTIONAL RESCUE?), or was it because they didn't really bother any longer? They didn't have that 'vision' anymore?
I think studying VOODOO LOUNGE and its creation might tell something quite revealing why the Stones have been quite non-profilic ever since. In a theory it looked like that everything was perfect. The band spending much time together in a studio and giving quite a lof time and space for the project. For example, STEEL WHEELS was a rather rushed project by Stones standards by then. But now they were doing the album 'like they used to'. They also had a new producer to whom a lot of power was given to give the album a needed focus and freshness. Jagger had tried that with Rubin in WANDERING SPIRIT with both commercially and artistically good results (one might wonder had that experience something to do with the choice and role of Don Was).
VOODOO LOUNGE turned to be a huge success commercially, and it is an okay album by all means. It also sounded good in that contemporary classic rock-friendly scene. But that's not good enough for me: to me it is a mother of all Stones-by-numbers albums, and since its relaese I have had difficulties to take them seriously (I have sometimes called the album 'Stones For Dummies...' there is nothing wrong with the songs themselves if one likes a standard Rolling Stones sound, but that's not good enough for a spoiled fan like me).
What the hell happened?
One could say that the quality of MAIN OFFENDER type songs Keith with which he both commercially and artistically (forget his hardcore fanbase with their acquired taste) flopped with wasn't the source of inspiration for a great Rolling Stones album. The best of them, "Love is Strong", was the leading single of the album, but while having a Stones fan ear-friendly surface, with that harmonica and all, it is a rather forgettable song in the long run. I still recall listening it in 40 LICKS and being almost shocked how cheap and thin the song sounded like in that collection of bigger-than-life songs. Formally okay but the substance missing.
But more than Keith I 'blame' Jagger here. I dare to claim - sorry Mick - that his heart wasn't totally involved while making that album. Or if it initially was, he somehow lost his interest during the process. Almost none of that drive and focus he had in WANDERING SPIRIT - an album of Rolling Stones style music - is left. Lyrically VOODOO LOUNGE is his worst album ever. Full of cheap and hasty-sounding choices - 'sharks will cry', indeed... And how banal are the opening lines of "Love Is Strong" (the title itself being one of the lamest they ever come up with, followed later titles like "Anybody Seen My Baby?" and "Streets of Love" - damn, all of them being leading singles from their albums!) - true that those are Keith's but Jagger wasn't bothered to write anything better. Artistic laziness. Add the odd fact that he gave so much power to Was. That's not the Jagger 'control freak' we are familiar with.
I cannot help but VOODOO LOUNGE marks the very moment when Mick and Keith, no matter how much time and space was given, couldn't any longer 'click' together. And Don Was no any bloody Jimmy Miller either (but the core problem wasn't in that direction). Magic just didn't happen any longer. I have a picture that Jagger made his own conclusion of that, and has not given a new chance since then. Both BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG were made by a different method, as it looks like the new album is going to be as well.
- Doxa
Total rubbish , i absolutely love Voodoo Lounge, brilliant album. Since Tattoo You its their best effort.
It's an improvement on Dirty Work that preceded it, and its better than Bridges To Babylon and ABB that followed it, i can't see where you are coming from in dissing this album at every turn, it's a good solid album that i play very often, i have a lot of affection for this album, but i agree with you that it's the last time Mick and Keith looked out of the same telescope together, but i don't agree that it was the very moment they no longer clicked, i would say that happened on the next album.
Stones by numbers i hear you say, well look if it pleases Stones fans what's the problem. If they can't recreate Exile then this is a good second best.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-10 21:42 by keithsman.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 10, 2018 22:08
Quote
gotdablouse
Based on how the VL sessions took place, writing sessions in Barbados for Mick and Keith (see Residue) and then endless sessions for the whole band together in Ireland at Ronnie's place, I always thought that the Keith versions that first appeared on "Voodoo Stew" in 1996 were more or less finished versions he'd gone back to record a vocal on, for fun or to make a point, i.e. not demos he worked on and that Mick polished up at the last minute, as what happened for with "One More Shot" in 2012.Quote
DandelionPowderman
I think there are examples of both. Sometimes, the unfinished versions are better (Keep Up Blues and some of the SW-tracks spring to mind).
However, LIS and YGMR really got a good makeover that improved the songs, imo.
I find it fascinating to listen to the development of their tunes as well. Some of the the early attemps are very long (the SG-tracks, Flip The Switch, YGR, for instance). We can litterally hear them searching for sweet stuff to add and trying out different things. Surprisingly, they often keep the backing tracks of many of those versions for the finished version. Then, they edit them down and do the overdubs and the final touches.
Where on earth did you hear an "early version" of Flip the Switch ?!
I haven't heard it, but Teddy was present during the recording sessions and described how they recorded a very long version (like they used to), live in the studio. Without bass, btw.
So, I used that as an example of the working method.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 11, 2018 00:18
Quote
keithsman
Total rubbish , i absolutely love Voodoo Lounge, brilliant album. Since Tattoo You its their best effort.
It's an improvement on Dirty Work that preceded it, and its better than Bridges To Babylon and ABB that followed it, i can't see where you are coming from in dissing this album at every turn, it's a good solid album that i play very often, i have a lot of affection for this album, but i agree with you that it's the last time Mick and Keith looked out of the same telescope together, but i don't agree that it was the very moment they no longer clicked, i would say that happened on the next album.
Stones by numbers i hear you say, well look if it pleases Stones fans what's the problem. If they can't recreate Exile then this is a good second best.
Take it easy, man. It's just a matter of differing opinions, so no problem there. Good for you if you like the album so much. I like it too, like I do of every Stones album, but I don't hear the brilliance you do.
I consider BRIDGES TO BABYLON to be slightly better album than VOODOO LOUNGE. I think that has something to do with Jagger and Richards not even trying to click, but constructed the album more or less separately, originating from intended solo projects. Neither needed to do compromises or having being inspired by other's doings. To me the album contains best individual songs from the latter day era, such as "Out of Control" and "How Can I Stop", even though as a whole it is a bit uneven and incohesive.
As pointed here, "Flip The Switch" is made by their old traditional working method, but I think that it is one of the weakest songs in the album.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-11 00:40 by Doxa.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 11, 2018 00:37
Bloody hell!
If someone would put a gun against my head and demand me to name the worst released Rolling Stones song ever, "Moon Is Up" would be pretty high on my list with "Back to Zero", but this version is so awful that it is hilarous. They should have released this instead the dull and embarrasing finished Jagger one! At least one could have laughed one's asses off with no shame!
- Doxa
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: November 11, 2018 01:12
Quote
DoxaQuote
keithsman
Total rubbish , i absolutely love Voodoo Lounge, brilliant album. Since Tattoo You its their best effort.
It's an improvement on Dirty Work that preceded it, and its better than Bridges To Babylon and ABB that followed it, i can't see where you are coming from in dissing this album at every turn, it's a good solid album that i play very often, i have a lot of affection for this album, but i agree with you that it's the last time Mick and Keith looked out of the same telescope together, but i don't agree that it was the very moment they no longer clicked, i would say that happened on the next album.
Stones by numbers i hear you say, well look if it pleases Stones fans what's the problem. If they can't recreate Exile then this is a good second best.
Take it easy, man. It's just a matter of differing opinions, so no problem there. Good for you if you like the album so much. I like it too, like I do of every Stones album, but I don't hear the brilliance you do.
I consider BRIDGES TO BABYLON to be slightly better album than VOODOO LOUNGE. I think that has something to do with Jagger and Richards not even trying to click, but constructed the album more or less separately, originating from intended solo projects. Neither needed to do compromises or having being inspired by other's doings. To me the album contains best individual songs from the latter day era, such as "Out of Control" and "How Can I Stop", even though as a whole it is a bit uneven and incohesive.
As pointed here, "Flip The Switch" is made by their old traditional working method, but I think that it is one of the weakest songs in the album.
- Doxa
That's rich coming from you ("take it easy" ) seriously !!
In light of what you said just now i think it will be interesting to see how this new album pans out. I like your comment that you thought BTB was better because by that point the Glimmers did not even try to click, i just wonder if you think it better they not click on the new album. It's an interesting way of looking at it, i said earlier today that it will be a good album because it will be two halves, Micks half and keith's, as long as they throw some fairy dust on each others work this could end up great. Its the compromise that could spoil this album, i'd rather have the best Micks got in competition with the best keith's got, and no saving the best stuff for their solo albums
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-11 11:27 by keithsman.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 11, 2018 14:12
Quote
keithsman
In light of what you said just now i think it will be interesting to see how this new album pans out. I like your comment that you thought BTB was better because by that point the Glimmers did not even try to click, i just wonder if you think it better they not click on the new album. It's an interesting way of looking at it, i said earlier today that it will be a good album because it will be two halves, Micks half and keith's, as long as they throw some fairy dust on each others work this could end up great. Its the compromise that could spoil this album, i'd rather have the best Micks got in competition with the best keith's got, and no saving the best stuff for their solo albums
Well, from the base we know by now, it looks like that the method they use now is more than that of BRIDGES TO BABYLON than that of VOODOO LOUNGE. Will that mean the album will have better chances to be better? That's impossible to say, as is always the case with creativity. We might learn from the history and do some educated guesses, but still one can not predict the future or the outcome. It can be a masterpiece or a total turd (or most likely, something in between).
I think the way they now are making the album comes out of necessity: that of them being old semi-retired men who really don't need any new music to survive. Keith sounds like making the album with the same style and frequency as he did his latest solo album: just some sessions here and then, thrown within a four years time frame or so. Mick writes and records his demos occasionally when he feels like (and sounds being rather profilic when he has that mood on) - that seems to fit nicely to Keith's schedule as well. Mick and Keith meet occasionally (probably to discuss about what to do with their songs and exchanging ideas). The whole band is asked studio for a week or so occasionally to do something with those songs Mick and Keith provide to them.
I simply think that the old style of making records by the whole band gathering to a studio and let the songs develop bit by bit by jamming etc. is something out of their reach. Simply due to their age and interest. Keith might occasionally talk about it, and many fans seems to have nostalgic ideas about it, but I think that those days are gone by; it is a part of Rolling Stones history and folklore now. Like I argued above, VOODOO LOUNGE was the last real effort to apply that method. (And my estimation is that VOODOO LOUNGE proved that the method had really run out of gas. A pragmatic guy like Mick Jagger concluded that the time and money invested in it doesn't pay off in remarkably if any better results. Jagger has always had some complaints about it, but I think he tolerated it, and live with it, as long as the results were worth of the 'sacrifice').
What goes for Mick and Keith 'clicking' or not, my take is that what happened to them was a result of natural history. They matured up as individual and independent artists (with not the world's smallest egos) and especially after both of them making solo records (although the development starting already in the early 70's), they were able to do just fine without the other. At some point their co-work started to be more like making compromises than that of inspiring each other. It was like what happened to John Lennon and Paul McCartney, although the Glimmers' fruitful co-operation lased longer and they were destinied to continue their careers under the umbrella notion of The Rolling Stones. Like with Lennon/McCartney, one could easily say that the stuff they did separately was not as strong as they did together, but it was a result of natural evolution. When there was not any longer that spark and feel of mutual inspiration, what one can do?
But that said, the best and most memorable results the Stones gained when Mick and Keith were 'clicking' (and with that the band was lead by one shared vision, not by two making forced compromises) and the band using that traditional, time consuming method to make records. But they were rather young and hungry guys back then... People happen to change when they get older...
- Doxa
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-11 14:31 by Doxa.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: November 11, 2018 15:00
Quote
dcba
RE "You Can't Rock Me" Nick Kent who attended some IORR sessions said that each take of these songs was worse than the previous and when a super-dire take was in the can Keef'd usually say : "that's it, that's the one! We got it!".
It is always be wise to be suspicious about what Kent says, but for the sake of argument let us assume him being accurate there. Namely, it cohers very well with the impression if we listen the earlier version next to the finished one, in which, like in many songs in that album, the band sounds oddily tired.
I'll take that as an early symptom of them being victims of their own working methods. That of them trying make perfect recordings with endless effort to discover the 'right' take or angle, which actually is damn demanding way to make music - it asks concentration, inspiration and stamina from a rather big group of people. In the case of "If You Can't Rock Me" the method starts to be like a routine than coming from a true artistic vision and inspiration. That of the maestro of the song having his deepest adventures in dopeville most probably didn't help either...
- Doxa
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: November 11, 2018 16:15
Quote
DoxaQuote
keithsman
In light of what you said just now i think it will be interesting to see how this new album pans out. I like your comment that you thought BTB was better because by that point the Glimmers did not even try to click, i just wonder if you think it better they not click on the new album. It's an interesting way of looking at it, i said earlier today that it will be a good album because it will be two halves, Micks half and keith's, as long as they throw some fairy dust on each others work this could end up great. Its the compromise that could spoil this album, i'd rather have the best Micks got in competition with the best keith's got, and no saving the best stuff for their solo albums
Well, from the base we know by now, it looks like that the method they use now is more than that of BRIDGES TO BABYLON than that of VOODOO LOUNGE. Will that mean the album will have better chances to be better? That's impossible to say, as is always the case with creativity. We might learn from the history and do some educated guesses, but still one can not predict the future or the outcome. It can be a masterpiece or a total turd (or most likely, something in between).
I think the way they now are making the album comes out of necessity: that of them being old semi-retired men who really don't need any new music to survive. Keith sounds like making the album with the same style and frequency as he did his latest solo album: just some sessions here and then, thrown within a four years time frame or so. Mick writes and records his demos occasionally when he feels like (and sounds being rather profilic when he has that mood on) - that seems to fit nicely to Keith's schedule as well. Mick and Keith meet occasionally (probably to discuss about what to do with their songs and exchanging ideas). The whole band is asked studio for a week or so occasionally to do something with those songs Mick and Keith provide to them.
I simply think that the old style of making records by the whole band gathering to a studio and let the songs develop bit by bit by jamming etc. is something out of their reach. Simply due to their age and interest. Keith might occasionally talk about it, and many fans seems to have nostalgic ideas about it, but I think that those days are gone by; it is a part of Rolling Stones history and folklore now. Like I argued above, VOODOO LOUNGE was the last real effort to apply that method. (And my estimation is that VOODOO LOUNGE proved that the method had really run out of gas. A pragmatic guy like Mick Jagger concluded that the time and money invested in it doesn't pay off in remarkably if any better results. Jagger has always had some complaints about it, but I think he tolerated it, and live with it, as long as the results were worth of the 'sacrifice').
What goes for Mick and Keith 'clicking' or not, my take is that what happened to them was a result of natural history. They matured up as individual and independent artists (with not the world's smallest egos) and especially after both of them making solo records (although the development starting already in the early 70's), they were able to do just fine without the other. At some point their co-work started to be more like making compromises than that of inspiring each other. It was like what happened to John Lennon and Paul McCartney, although the Glimmers' fruitful co-operation lased longer and they were destinied to continue their careers under the umbrella notion of The Rolling Stones. Like with Lennon/McCartney, one could easily say that the stuff they did separately was not as strong as they did together, but it was a result of natural evolution. When there was not any longer that spark and feel of mutual inspiration, what one can do?
But that said, the best and most memorable results the Stones gained when Mick and Keith were 'clicking' (and with that the band was lead by one shared vision, not by two making forced compromises) and the band using that traditional, time consuming method to make records. But they were rather young and hungry guys back then... People happen to change when they get older...
- Doxa
Excellent post Doxa, its a bit like those marriages when the couple keep going for the children, to all intents and purposes the marriage is over but they keep up appearances out of love for the children and respect for each other.( Oh and of course i nearly forgot "the money" )I wouldn't be surprised if the studio time involved with this forthcoming album is 90% Mick without Keith in the studio, and then Keith's in the studio without Mick for an equal amount of time. Who is putting in more time than the other is anyone's guess but it's all for the babies.
I think they work together only when it's essential and then get the remaining Stones involved together when the time is right.
It's my guess that they don't argue much these days, they work around each other trying not to cause confrontation, basically who needs it, they are too old and tired for that level of passion in their work.
It is what it is and this is the only way we are going to receive an album from them, emotions run deep with Mick and Keith and there is no joy in going to that place again, working closely and cohesively nose to nose can stir up all sorts of best forgotten memories and the ego's can clash at close quarters.
It's possibly why it took them 11 years to decide to make this record, and it could also be why its been such a long time coming in the making, they tread carefully and respectfully around each other , and that takes time and consideration. I think they might have gotten at loggerheads with each other earlier on while making this album and that could have been the wall Don spoke of, Blue And Lonesome was a fantastic diversion from the possible conflict between them, i wouldn't be surprised if they have stayed right out of each others way finishing the remainder of the album.
I could be completely wrong and talking complete bollocks though
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: November 11, 2018 16:59
Quote
Doxa
Bloody hell!
If someone would put a gun against my head and demand me to name the worst released Rolling Stones song ever, "Moon Is Up" would be pretty high on my list with "Back to Zero", but this version is so awful that it is hilarous. They should have released this instead the dull and embarrasing finished Jagger one! At least one could have laughed one's asses off with no shame!
- Doxa
Not to disagree with any of your observations here Doxa, but I think a huge part of the problem has been how many songs they included on the latter day albums. With the exception of Exile, I don't think the Stones have any business making double albums, maybe most bands shouldn't. Very rarely critically successful they appear to be hard to do, to maintain a high level of quality.
If instead they spent more time developing the top 10 or 12 songs I think we'd end up with a more satisfying outcome. Moon is up? WTF...that is garbage...should have been dumped immediately but maybe they wanted to fill up the CD for extra 'value'. No thanks.
Re: Love Is Strong - Keith on vocals
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 11, 2018 19:46
Quote
Doxa
Bloody hell!
If someone would put a gun against my head and demand me to name the worst released Rolling Stones song ever, "Moon Is Up" would be pretty high on my list with "Back to Zero", but this version is so awful that it is hilarous. They should have released this instead the dull and embarrasing finished Jagger one! At least one could have laughed one's asses off with no shame!
- Doxa
It's been a while, but isn't this the finished backing tracks with Keith humming/wailing on top of it?
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