Is the same thing happening in the Baseball Hall of Fame?

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RollingFreak
Its simple: no one wanted to induct Dire Straits if Mark Knopfler wasn't there. I don't know if it was out of embarrassment or to respect his wishes, but probably a combo of both. Which I agree, as a big fan its sort of pointless to be asked to induct them if the one guy responsible for it all isn't there. I don't think it has to do with him not having any friends. They saw no point if Mark wasn't gonna be there.

Key members of Guns 'n Roses and Van Halen no-showed, and they still had big-name acts induct them (Green Day and Velvet Revolver, respectively).

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keefriff99

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RollingFreak
Its simple: no one wanted to induct Dire Straits if Mark Knopfler wasn't there. I don't know if it was out of embarrassment or to respect his wishes, but probably a combo of both. Which I agree, as a big fan its sort of pointless to be asked to induct them if the one guy responsible for it all isn't there. I don't think it has to do with him not having any friends. They saw no point if Mark wasn't gonna be there.

Key members of Guns 'n Roses and Van Halen no-showed, and they still had big-name acts induct them (Green Day and Velvet Revolver, respectively).

Everyone BUT Axl was there. And no one really likes Axl. It hinged on Slash and Slash being there provided the legitimacy. And Slash got it because HE inducted Van Halen where only Michael Anthony and Sammy Hagar showed up (which as much as I like them was laughable too because you want Dave and Eddie). Dire Straits was a very specific case and while I understand why it went down the way it did, it was sad because they deserved their moment in the sun and it was an overdue honor for a band that most of the times is overlooked. I fully support Mark but the bottom line is he made a mistake not being there. If he was, it would have been beautiful and he really should have sucked it up and gone. Or done something ELSE for Dire Straits fans to not give the Hall the moment. But showing up and playing one song would have been a great way to close the chapter on that band, which they never really had.

Yes, it should be run similar to the Baseball Hall Of Fame now which is why they don't have these kinds of problems. After the first 15 years the rules should have changed cause everyone that NEEDED to be in for the most part was.

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tatters
Def Leppard
Devo
Janet Jackson
John Prine
Kraftwerk
LL Cool J
MC5
Radiohead
Rage Against the Machine
Roxy Music
Stevie Nicks
The Cure
Todd Rundgren
Rufus & Chaka Khan
The Zombies

What a joke! Def Leopard??!!! Yes I know Bon Jovi was the bottom of the bottle but this crap? The rest of the list is atrocious too. The Stones should vacate the Hall!

They should have an Old Timers Committee like the Baseball HOF so that overlooked acts get a second chance, voted on by their peers. As it is, from what I've read, if you don't get in after a few time on the ballot, you are dropped from contention. Or maybe you can get back on the ballot, but it's not a certainty. I have no idea who composes the voting body. Is it all writers, or musicians, too?

If there is ONE band that should have flew in it's The J Geils Band

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RollingFreak
Its simple: no one wanted to induct Dire Straits if Mark Knopfler wasn't there. I don't know if it was out of embarrassment or to respect his wishes, but probably a combo of both. Which I agree, as a big fan its sort of pointless to be asked to induct them if the one guy responsible for it all isn't there. I don't think it has to do with him not having any friends. They saw no point if Mark wasn't gonna be there.

Right. Just like when McCartney skipped The Beatles' induction and no one would induct them if only George and Ringo showed up.

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potus43
If there is ONE band that should have flew in it's The J Geils Band

Not gonna lie.
Makes me a little nervous when we agree.

Whammer Jammer lemme hear ya'

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Rocky Dijon

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RollingFreak
Its simple: no one wanted to induct Dire Straits if Mark Knopfler wasn't there. I don't know if it was out of embarrassment or to respect his wishes, but probably a combo of both. Which I agree, as a big fan its sort of pointless to be asked to induct them if the one guy responsible for it all isn't there. I don't think it has to do with him not having any friends. They saw no point if Mark wasn't gonna be there.

Right. Just like when McCartney skipped The Beatles' induction and no one would induct them if only George and Ringo showed up.

That's the Beatles. You know that's completely different.

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marianna
They should have an Old Timers Committee like the Baseball HOF so that overlooked acts get a second chance, voted on by their peers. As it is, from what I've read, if you don't get in after a few time on the ballot, you are dropped from contention. Or maybe you can get back on the ballot, but it's not a certainty. I have no idea who composes the voting body. Is it all writers, or musicians, too?

Its both. Its journalists and artists. And radio personalities cause Eddie Trunk has a vote. It extends pretty far. Every new band that gets inducted all those members then have a vote. So thats why the voting has changed because originally they kept people like KISS, Rush, Moody Blues out because that original guard didn't like them. Then as more people came in like Questlove, Little Steven, Lar Ulrich those bands that influenced them got more consideration. IMO its a combination issue: the old guard (people like my father) are too completely close minded. The Hall never wanted people like Deep Purple, even though they are massively influential and prolific. They didn't like The Moody Blues so they kept them out. Someone like my father loves the Moody Blues, never understood why they were overlooked. But he hated Deep Purple, KISS, etc. He said they don't deserve to be in. I told him you can like who you like but you need to see the broad scope of what those other bands did. Its not your favorite artists, its who has made an impact, and its impossible to deny Deep Purple has. So you need a committee that is open minded, which they don't have, and is focused on the actual idea of the Hall, which is rock, not Pop. Now its about popularity but they used to keep people out based on bias. Second thing they need is a more narrow voting system. Too many people can vote and it grows each year. So thats another reason there's chaos.

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RollingFreak

As for the fan vote, if you truly think it has any impact well... then the Hall did their job. They've swindled you into thinking you matter at all. The fan vote means absolutely nothing. 1 vote for each band means nothing when there's thousands of voters. As if Def Leppard needed ONE more vote to get in and it was the fan vote to break the tie?! Are you serious? Come on now. I know a LOT of people are stupid (myself included) but don't fall for that. Thats like Ticketmaster saying they are "helping fans". They are never "helping fans", the same way the Hall of Fame doesn't care about fans. Its a sham and its sad that anyone would believe they have a voice. But thats exactly what the fan vote is designed to do. I'm sorry, its designed to make stupid people think they have a voice. It does not in any way affect the voters (the voters have changed thats why new people get nominated and inducted like Rush and KISS) and it in no way helps the bands get in. I'm sorry, there's no two ways about it.

I'll even carry this a step further...

the sham fan vote actually does the opposite of positively influencing the industry voters...
Most of the old guard are repulsed by the fans and their "votes".

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RollingFreak
That's the Beatles. You know that's completely different.

Of course I know it's different. Knopfler might be a respected guitarist, but he's not a well-liked guy in his industry. If he was, someone would have been happy to induct him even if it was an oddball choice with no apparent influence from the inductee (as several have been in recent years). I don't know the politics around the induction as far as the Hall is concerned, but I don't think no one would induct the band out of respect for Knopfler's disdain for the Hall, Wenner, and show biz in general. I honestly don't know why they let them in. If it was someone with pull ensuring they were recognized, you would think they would turn up and do the honors for them. That's why I speculated they were the exception that proves the rule that fan votes are pointless. You induct a band who still has a couple songs played on the radio decades after their popularity waned and the guy who "was" the band doesn't show. It doesn't help the Hall. It generates nothing but negative press. It doesn't pay for the Hall to induct people who won't play the game. Bobby Brown will turn up if you induct him and he'll give a soundbite for the press. That's a big part of why we're roped with non-rock inductees.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-10 19:42 by Rocky Dijon.

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Rocky Dijon

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RollingFreak
That's the Beatles. You know that's completely different.

Of course I know it's different. Knopfler might be a respected guitarist, but he's not a well-liked guy in his industry. If he was, someone would have been happy to induct him even if it was an oddball choice with no apparent influence from the inductee (as several have been in recent years). I don't know the politics around the induction as far as the Hall is concerned, but I don't think no one would induct the band out of respect for Knopfler's disdain for the Hall, Wenner, and show biz in general. I honestly don't know why they let them in. If it was someone with pull ensuring they were recognized, you would think they would turn up and do the honors for them. That's why I speculated they were the exception that proves the rule that fan votes are pointless. You induct a band who still has a couple songs played on the radio decades after their popularity waned and the guy who "was" the band doesn't show. It doesn't help the Hall. It generates nothing but negative press. It doesn't pay for the Hall to induct people who won't play the game. Bobby Brown will turn up if you induct him and he'll give a soundbite for the press. That's a big part of why we're roped with non-rock inductees.

I'm having a hard time following whether you're just not a fan of them though or actually don't get why they are in. Its a rather no brainer why they are in. They were a good band, had a string of great albums, some monster hits, legitimately became the biggest band in the world at one point, and then ended without tarnishing their legacy. Are they the Stones? No. Do they belong in a Hall? Maybe, maybe not. Of the people that are in now, they DEFINITELY belong, and if anything I think I'm selling them short by saying maybe before. But of who's in they were a glaring omission that is thankfully corrected.

Their induction was odd, I wouldn't deny that. We'll never know the full story but I do not believe it was because he has no friends. Obviously I can't prove that but you also can't really prove otherwise. As a fan, I would understand not bothering to show up if Mark's not. It really doesn't make sense. As a fan you want the honor of doing that, and Dire Straits was a great band, but Mark was the leader, guitar player and songwriter. If you can't thank him in person, you could easily send him a message another way instead of impersonally honoring him. I just get why no one would show if he's not there. The Hall didn't want them in anyway (thats why they've kept him out) so they gave them a BS induction instead of going any extra mile. I get that too. The whole thing for fans was sad, because they are deserving based on who's in there now.

This years list has Devo - really ? for what there copy of Satisfaction ? Wow , never mind about the inductees -start with the nominations . See in the Baseball Hall of Fame's criteria Devo -would not have been nominated . Enough ! So based on the RRHOF criteria -who did Devo influence ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-10 20:57 by TheGreek.

I'm actually a huge fan of Knopfler and Dire Straits. I was pleasantly surprised when they were nominated many years after being ignored for over a dozen years since they were eligible. I was more surprised when they were voted in, disappointed at which members were excluded, unsurprised when first Mark and then David made it clear they weren't showing, and ultimately thought the whole induction was farcical when I watched Illsley read his own induction speech. By no means do I think Eminem and Cyndi Lauper belong in the Hall of Fame, but I understand why the Hall goes for popular artists who will generate a positive buzz rather than artists who won't play the game because of personal integrity or bad blood between members.

I suspect Devo are helped by being from Ohio. They might get tourists from Akron to visit the Hall. It also shows they paid attention to punk/New Wave, sort of.

Eddie Trunk with some insight on Judas Priest, and the entire voting process as a whole, here...

[www.youtube.com]

Oh,,, just had a sandwich and i'm feeling better... Oh wait, RALPHHH...

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lem motlow
I wish a tornado would hit that place and blow it into the middle of Lake Erie.

Well now that's a bit extreme. I'd like to point out that the museum part of the building is quite enjoyable. Anyone who likes rock 'n' roll can easily spend a long afternoon there. And since the actual Hall of Fame (yes, it sucks) is confined to one floor you can skip it altogether like I did.

P.S. - I don't think there's a single HoF-worthy name on that list. Then again, I'd kick out a third of the acts that are already in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-11 08:18 by Roscoe.

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Roscoe

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lem motlow
I wish a tornado would hit that place and blow it into the middle of Lake Erie.

Well now that's a bit extreme. I'd like to point out that the museum part of the building is quite enjoyable. Anyone who likes rock 'n' roll can easily spend a long afternoon there. And since the actual Hall of Fame (yes, it sucks) is confined to one floor you can skip it altogether like I did.

P.S. - I don't think there's a single HoF-worthy name on that list. Then again, I'd kick out a third of the acts that are already in.

I was gonna say “with Jann Wenners fat ass with it”-

But you are correct,there are millions worth of artifacts in that overhyped Hard Rock Cafe that the musicians “donated”. Musicians give their stage clothes,guitars etc for nothing and the “Hall of Fame”put it on display and make a fortune in ticket sales showing the stuff.
And people wonder why musicians get scammed out of their money.

Radiohead is the best of the bunch.

Surprising actually that there are several fairly deserving bands that aren't in there yet from some of the comments in the thread.

They should only induct 3 acts every year, make it very exclusive.



...they could make the show about featuring the acts being inducted, but also around the acts that influenced them, and the acts they influenced. Embracing old and new and showing the thread that links it all together.

At least it could make for an interesting show.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-11 09:13 by treaclefingers.

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sdstonesguy
At least J. Geils Band, X & The Stooges are all in...along with Credence maybe the best 4 American Bands ever.

.. dont forget allman bros,skynyrd,and the doors

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lem motlow

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Roscoe

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lem motlow
I wish a tornado would hit that place and blow it into the middle of Lake Erie.

Well now that's a bit extreme. I'd like to point out that the museum part of the building is quite enjoyable. Anyone who likes rock 'n' roll can easily spend a long afternoon there. And since the actual Hall of Fame (yes, it sucks) is confined to one floor you can skip it altogether like I did.

P.S. - I don't think there's a single HoF-worthy name on that list. Then again, I'd kick out a third of the acts that are already in.

I was gonna say “with Jann Wenners fat ass with it”-

But you are correct,there are millions worth of artifacts in that overhyped Hard Rock Cafe that the musicians “donated”. Musicians give their stage clothes,guitars etc for nothing and the “Hall of Fame”put it on display and make a fortune in ticket sales showing the stuff.
And people wonder why musicians get scammed out of their money.

Exactly, that was my impression when I visited in 2015 and noticed they had a big Rolling Stones display minus a LOT of guitars because they are a working and recording and touring band . It was quite the headscratcher that bands and artists allow there stuff to be showcased without getting a single dime . How is that right in good faith ? Oh , wait because someone might visit the museum and actually buy a CD or a concert ticket ? Pretty lame , same as the museum gift shop -where I did spend money on stuff like posters and guitar picks and mugs and more crap that I can't recall at the moment . What I should do is box that crap up and give to a family member who would actually appreciate it more than I will as I have quite the bad and rancid taste in my mouth and memory from a variety of things . In all fairness I have to point out that there were 2 things in the RRHOF Museum that made me emotional and that was right in the lobby in the first floor by the entrance and that was Muddy Waters Red Fender Telecaster with rosewood board , and Jerry Garcia's custom built Doug Irwin "Rosebud" guitar that Captain Trips used right up to that final show at Solider Field in 1995 .Muddy's guitar made me choke up seeing it in that glass case because I thought of all the music he made that brought so much joy from the Blues and influenced so many bands and artists including the Rolling Stones and countless others .In a lot of ways those 2 guitars made the cost of the entrance fee to the museum worth it .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-11 13:45 by TheGreek.

Roxy Music

Def Leppard

Rage Against The Machine

The Cure

Janet Jackson

John Prine has a fantastic back catalogue and is still delivering wonderful music, both live and in the studio. He deserves the recognition. Roxy Music had their moments back in the day and MC5 burned very bright very briefly.

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James Kirk
The idea that Def Leppard belongs in the Hall of Fame is ridiculous. If they get in Poison, Motley Crue and Winger won’t be far behind.

The R+R Hall of Fame has (or is close to) reached a period where there is literally no acts that deserve the honor. What’s worse is when they start putting in rap acts (should Led Zepplin be in the rap/hip hop HOF?) that have zero reason to be included...The entire concept is a joke and now that joke is magnified as they have nearly no deserving nominees going forward.

the rock n roll hall of fames criteria is first album was released 25+ years ago and they were influential. are you telling me motley crue and def leppard influenced no one, weren't rock n roll , don't have an album out at least 25+ year sago and on top of that weren't huge for more than a decade?

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keefriffhard4life

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James Kirk
The idea that Def Leppard belongs in the Hall of Fame is ridiculous. If they get in Poison, Motley Crue and Winger won’t be far behind.

The R+R Hall of Fame has (or is close to) reached a period where there is literally no acts that deserve the honor. What’s worse is when they start putting in rap acts (should Led Zepplin be in the rap/hip hop HOF?) that have zero reason to be included...The entire concept is a joke and now that joke is magnified as they have nearly no deserving nominees going forward.

the rock n roll hall of fames criteria is first album was released 25+ years ago and they were influential. are you telling me motley crue and def leppard influenced no one, weren't rock n roll , don't have an album out at least 25+ year sago and on top of that weren't huge for more than a decade?

Listen I like Def Leppard and Motley Crue but I'd have a hard time including them in a true Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. In the shitshow that this has become? They belong cause they're better than just plain rap or pop acts. But Leppard and Motley are perfect examples of great bands I'd never put in a Hall Of Fame. As I've always said, there's seminal acts like Zeppelin and the Stones and there's very good acts like Leppard and Motley. Some bands really rise to the top above the rest, and those are the ones that should get honored.

The criteria has always been murky although for most bands I've thought its quite simple. It should encompass sales (yes, I do think thats a factor, although probably the least important one), influence, and consistency. Were you consistent for an impressive period of time? Did you have more than one great album in the tank? Did you truly change or add something to a style of music. Motley Crue, for as much as I like them, relied heavily on trends of the time. The Beatles CREATED trends, I do think thats a distinct difference. I also think bands like MC5 and the Misfits and many others are more deserving than a band like Crue because their influence is just unbelievable. They had sort underground careers but their footprint is undeniable. EVERYONE cites them as influences. This is exactly a place where they SHOULD get honored cause they won't anywhere else. Those are cases where I think influence really trumps a lot. For consistency, bands like Pink Floyd, Genesis, The Moody Blues, the Stones, Zeppelin, Dylan, on and on and on. Those guys had YEARS of fantastic lifechanging records. To me, bands like Crue need to equal it and they did very good ones but not on the same level. To me, Dire Straits got to an unbelievable amount of fame on their own terms with a consistent string of albums. To me, that makes them worthy. Crue rode a wave, I just think its different. Bands like Black Sabbath or Deep Purple are literally inventors of their art form. I don't know how that can be discounted. When you make a Hall like this, some bands are better than others, and thats just how it is. You don't have to like every band, I certainly don't, but I can respect and understand why bands like The Police are in (who I don't like) over personal favorites of mine like T Rex or Mott The Hoople. The Police were more important and more impressive. Its just how the game is played. Nirvana WAS better than all the other bands of their time. Guns N Roses rose to the top of the heap in their time because of talent. KISS, like em or not, distinguished themselves in an era with a million bands and influenced every single band that followed. You don't have to like them, but they changed the game, and thats a Hall Of Fame band to me.

Every band is different and its a case by case basis, but I think the inducting of "second string" bands like Journey, Crue, Leppard, Cheap Trick, Styx, Foreigner and all those guys, regardless of my preference of them (I like most of them) is not a great sign. Those guys are fine, but they aren't the best and this is supposed to be the Hall of the best. I don't mind them being in with the mess thats in now but in a real Hall I never would. Bands from that same time like Priest, Iron Maiden, even maybe Motorhead, I would say are far more deserving or there's at least a better argument. Those other guys? They had some hits, rode some waves, they didn't change or impact music the same way the big boys did. And when you induct bands like them, I personally think you're lowering the bar a bit. But I'm happy they're at least not straight pop and rap and actually have a tie to the genre.

not sure how the crue rode a wave. the crue and def leppard started the wave. thousands of bands say they got a contract based off on motley crue getting signed and their first album because a huge hit so every label started snatching up every l.a. based rock band

I'm really not trying to downplay their importance. I really am a fan and certainly think Motley did way more than bands like Winger or White Lion or any of those other 80s glam bands. I guess they did kinda start the wave. I guess I'd then have to fall back on the fact that I just don't know if their catalogue is strong enough for me to think of them as Hall Of Fame worthy. They would be in that "very good" Hall to me. Same with Leppard. Great stuff, but I just don't think it rises above being Cheap Trick level, or Mott The Hoople level. That level of "they're great but you shouldn't overestimate their importance." I just think they are bands that are good for their time but not good for ALL time. And I love a lot of their stuff. But to me there really is a clear difference between a Motley Crue and an Iron Maiden. Motley Crue is way better than most from their era, and survived a lot longer, but I don't have as strong an argument in favor of them being in. I do think being overlooked when other shit is nominated is crazy though.

Def Leppard (along with Iron Maiden) is the biggest band to come out of the NWOBHM movement, and Crue spearheaded the whole Sunset Strip scene.

They both deserve to be in based on influence.