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Doxa
the vaults are now locked up for good
- Doxa

Just a random thought but that could mean the new album is coming?
The archive releases had just ONE purpose : keeping a media activity around the band when Mick and the boys had nothing new to offer, so the Stones were not considered as a "dead" band. It worked really well (as most plans Jagger designs, do).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-08 18:23 by dcba.

Good point, dcba!

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DandelionPowderman


Yeah, I can't help thinking of the beautiful Charlie Is My Darling-release, where they managed to create a wonderful joint product.

Did it sell that bad?

At least I don't want to believe that is it the Stones who are hindering these anniversary sets from happening.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking... Joyce did say something about wanting to get control over the ABKCO-catalogue..

Yep. The raeson I started to think further these contractual copyright issues was that of why do they do such a lousy work with these 50th Anniversary editions, especially with such a classical album like BEGGARS BANQUET. The example of the recent re-editions of EXILE, SOME GIRLS, STICKY FINGERS, and even earlier, and interestingly, YA-YA'S! indicate something more (even though not even them being any 'perfect' for our hardcore fan taste...). And yep, CHARLIE IS MY DARLING was a fantastic release. Another thing that draw my attention is that not just me but 'people in the business' that are rather surprised how carelessly The Stones (& ABKCO) seem to handle this public domain issue by letting the material slip away from their ownnership. Pretty hard to think that they just 'don't care'. (The only reason for the latter attitude would be I think Mick and Keith think it is (a) better for them to let the material enter public domain or (b) that the potential profit in that field is so tiny that they just don't bother or (c) that controlling their own legacy to such an extent is simply out of their interest).

Instead of seeing Mick and Keith being so small-minded (no matter how justified their bitterness towards ABKCO is) and 'sapotaging' the re-edition of one of their most profilic albums (thereby shooting their own feet), it could be that something is going on there behind the curtain Joyce was briefly referring to...

- Doxa

thanks for sharing.
I wonder what are the secrets behind the Chess sound.

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dcba

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Doxa
the vaults are now locked up for good
- Doxa

Just a random thought but that could mean the new album is coming?
The archive release had just ONE purpose : keeping a media activity around the band when Mick and the boys had nothing new to offer, so the Stones were not considered as a "dead" band. It worked really well (as most plans Jagger designs, do).

Yeah! It could be that digging up archieves isn't the priority at the moment in their task list... Always trusty georgelicks wrote in July 4th: "It [BEGGARS BANQUET] be released with bonus songs, that's the word on Universal, very much like Sticky Fingers on 2015.". Seemingly something happened after that - it would not be that unhearable that Jagger has changed his mind and decided to look forward instead of back...

Jeez, I wish this interpretation to be true...

- Doxa

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Doxa
Cheers, Rocky! Cool additional info. What do you mean by that if the copyright of recording of "Try Me" could be "enforced". Is that something to do with such gestures as ABKCO have done in regards to remasters - that they still, seeing a hole in a public domain business, can copyright that unique mastering of the song in the form they might have release it? The others could only use/release those already circulating versions?

Anyway, funny to hear about that clever idea of copyrighting the remasters - thereby gaining some 70 years more of ownership (in UK & EU). Anyway, I predict when, say, 2036 comes and "Satisfaction" enters public domain, there will be some specific releases based on the original master release, which, for example, the radio stations will use from then on - not needing pay anything of the publishing royalties, just the song-writer ones. The people who would like to use the tune in commercials would have two options then: go to Jagger/Richards (or their estate) and ask the permission to use the original master or go to ABKCO to use the remastered version, which would cost them more... I am rather certain which option they use... Of course, the premise in this prediction is that there still is a market and interest for this kind of stuff...

I guess all of this is rather boring stuff for most of the people here, but I am rather into it, since I have never really thought or understood anything about these kind of matters earlier. You live and learn...

- Doxa

In referring to the status of "Try Me" some of what I read here made it sound like any copyright on the recording from 1965 would expire shortly. To your point, if ABKCO releases it and copyrights it 2019 for the sake of argument, the copyright protection would extend as if it were a newly recorded release. Retired Dog may know otherwise.

I work with a literary estate. The author died in 1959. His widow renewed the copyrights in 1977. Copyright protection extends as if his works were newly written material in 1977. The exception are his works published before 1923 may be freely reprinted but no one can use his characters in new works (even characters from his pre-1923 titles) without a license. This is enforced by The Society of Authors in the UK and The Authors Guild in the USA as they jointly administer the literary estate. The likes of Disney and Warner Bros. respect this interpretation and choose not to challenge it legally. I regularly deal with armchair copyright attorneys (as I am with the Stones) who tell me this is against public domain law. No one perseveres who attempts to go forward on their own, though. Copyright is fraught with peril unless no one manages the estate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-08 16:22 by Rocky Dijon.

Is there an easy to read complete list of the songs the Stones recorded at Chess Studio? Thanks

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Doxa

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dcba

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Doxa
the vaults are now locked up for good
- Doxa

Just a random thought but that could mean the new album is coming?
The archive release had just ONE purpose : keeping a media activity around the band when Mick and the boys had nothing new to offer, so the Stones were not considered as a "dead" band. It worked really well (as most plans Jagger designs, do).

Yeah! It could be that digging up archieves isn't the priority at the moment in their task list... Always trusty georgelicks wrote in July 4th: "It [BEGGARS BANQUET] be released with bonus songs, that's the word on Universal, very much like Sticky Fingers on 2015.". Seemingly something happened after that - it would not be that unhearable that Jagger has changed his mind and decided to look forward instead of back...

Jeez, I wish this interpretation to be true...

- Doxa

The Stones are considered as a "dead band" by the majority of the public, a dead band that has nothing new to offer since many, many years, but still plays live shows here and there with their "old hits" - and the archive releases did never change that general impression all too much.

It's not necessarily a bad thing because in fact, almost all bands from the glory days of Rock are considered "dead" by now, "dead" in creative terms, of course.

In the end, to fully understand their reasoning behind these poor anniversary releases, one would have to talk to Jagger personally. Is there a plan? Or is it just thoughtlesness/carelessness?

I doubt that ABKCO is to blame for this, at least not ABKCO alone. A record company is always interested to offer bonus material for anniversary re-releases, for obvious reasons. Are the Stones asking too much for agreeing the inclusion of bonus material? Don't they want it at all? At least not while the material still belongs to ABKCO?

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Rocky Dijon

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Doxa
Cheers, Rocky! Cool additional info. What do you mean by that if the copyright of recording of "Try Me" could be "enforced". Is that something to do with such gestures as ABKCO have done in regards to remasters - that they still, seeing a hole in a public domain business, can copyright that unique mastering of the song in the form they might have release it? The others could only use/release those already circulating versions?

Anyway, funny to hear about that clever idea of copyrighting the remasters - thereby gaining some 70 years more of ownership (in UK & EU). Anyway, I predict when, say, 2036 comes and "Satisfaction" enters public domain, there will be some specific releases based on the original master release, which, for example, the radio stations will use from then on - not needing pay anything of the publishing royalties, just the song-writer ones. The people who would like to use the tune in commercials would have two options then: go to Jagger/Richards (or their estate) and ask the permission to use the original master or go to ABKCO to use the remastered version, which would cost them more... I am rather certain which option they use... Of course, the premise in this prediction is that there still is a market and interest for this kind of stuff...

I guess all of this is rather boring stuff for most of the people here, but I am rather into it, since I have never really thought or understood anything about these kind of matters earlier. You live and learn...

- Doxa

In referring to the status of "Try Me" some of what I read here made it sound like any copyright on the recording from 1965 would expire shortly. To your point, if ABKCO releases it and copyrights it 2019 for the sake of argument, the copyright protection would extend as if it were a newly recorded release. Retired Dog may know otherwise.

I work with a literary estate. The author died in 1959. His widow renewed the copyrights in 1977. Copyright protection extends as if his works were newly written material in 1977. The exception are his works published before 1923 may be freely reprinted but no one can use his characters in new works (even characters from his pre-1923 titles) without a license. This is enforced by The Society of Authors in the UK and The Authors Guild in the USA as they jointly administer the literary estate. The likes of Disney and Warner Bros. respect this interpretation and choose not to challenge it legally. I regularly deal with armchair copyright attorneys (as I am with the Stones) who tell me this is against public domain law. No one perseveres who attempts to go forward on their own, though. Copyright is fraught with peril unless no one manages the estate.

This may be true for the US, but I was talking about the situation in Europe (EC), where you can't "renew" copyrights once they are in the public domain. Otherwise we would not have seen "Copyright Extension" releases of previously unreleased recordings by Dylan and other artists to prevent these materials from falling into the public domain. Also my main focus were the so-called "neighboring rights" and not the copyright of songwriters and authors you are referring to - they differ considerably!

"Copyright is fraught with peril" - indeed. A potential minefield, like I said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-08 17:25 by retired_dog.

Sorry for not being more clear, Retired Dog, but I think that's been ABKCO's strategy in copyrighting remasters as "new work." It's a trick that's also been used when silent movies are restored and new intertitles added. Anyone can package and distribute grainy public domain copies, but if you distribute a restoration copy on the basis the film is public domain, you discover the restoration is under protection for many years to come. It may be that soon anyone can release some of the Sixties recordings, but they'll need to use the original vinyl as the source because if ABKCO can prove they are sourced from their copyrighted remasters (in some cases that is quite easy to do), they will be sued for infringement.

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Rocky Dijon
Sorry for not being more clear, Retired Dog, but I think that's been ABKCO's strategy in copyrighting remasters as "new work." It's a trick that's also been used when silent movies are restored and new intertitles added. Anyone can package and distribute grainy public domain copies, but if you distribute a restoration copy on the basis the film is public domain, you discover the restoration is under protection for many years to come. It may be that soon anyone can release some of the Sixties recordings, but they'll need to use the original vinyl as the source because if ABKCO can prove they are sourced from their copyrighted remasters (in some cases that is quite easy to do), they will be sued for infringement.

Yes, you mentioned this earlier, copyrighting remasters. However, over here it falls under the category of "law against unfair competition" which is a somewhat weaker sword than copyright and neighboring rights, effectively protecting not the recording itself, but more the substantial financial investment into a remastering work of old recordings. That's a tricky subject that alone could fill pages here once we go into details! Let's try to avoid that, after all we're not legal advisers for any young "public domain label entrepreneurs"...

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retired_dog

The Stones are considered as a "dead band" by the majority of the public

No no no (and that's not a fanboy comment. I live in a big European city with a massive touristic turnover and I keep seeing kids (8 to 18) from all nationalities wearing Stones T-shirts.

So as a brand the Stones are hot, trendy. And this is exactly what Jagger tried to achieve all these years : keeping the Stones alive, keeping the Stones media image fresh.
in 2017 2018 when you see young people going to a Stones show for the very 1st time you can say this is the direct result of the non-stop Jagger campaign to keep the Stones hot.
Is ABB lesser than EOMS, it is but these kids don't care at all, all they know is the Stones, the band the iconic tongue are trendy/hot.

Jagger is a marketing genius!

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Big Al
Thanks, Deltics. So, this outtake has never circulated until now? I wonder what other Chess recordings are yet to circulate or be discovered? A Chess-outtakes release would be marvellous; or even a release compiling all their recordings - released and unreleased - from those 1964-65 U.S. sessions.

Yes, indeed!

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dcba

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retired_dog

The Stones are considered as a "dead band" by the majority of the public

No no no (and that's not a fanboy comment. I live in a big European city with a massive touristic turnover and I keep seeing kids (8 to 18) from all nationalities wearing Stones T-shirts.

So as a brand the Stones are hot, trendy. And this is exactly what Jagger tried to achieve all these years : keeping the Stones alive, keeping the Stones media image fresh.
in 2017 2018 when you see young people going to a Stones show for the very 1st time you can say this is the direct result of the non-stop Jagger campaign to keep the Stones hot.
Is ABB lesser than EOMS, it is but these kids don't care at all, all they know is the Stones, the band the iconic tongue are trendy/hot.

Jagger is a marketing genius!

He surely is!

But my focus was on "dead in creative terms, of course" - that's what I wrote and meant. Don't you think that that even younger people aren't aware of the age of the songs they hear in concert? That's not necessarily a bad thing, though - the band is regarded as eternal icons from rock music's glory days. Their music, image and imagery are timeless. That's quite an achievement, of course. The downside to it, at least for uns diehards, is that new music is not a necessity anymore to keep the brand alive. It's a bonus, not a top priority for the band.

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retired_dog

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Rocky Dijon
Sorry for not being more clear, Retired Dog, but I think that's been ABKCO's strategy in copyrighting remasters as "new work." It's a trick that's also been used when silent movies are restored and new intertitles added. Anyone can package and distribute grainy public domain copies, but if you distribute a restoration copy on the basis the film is public domain, you discover the restoration is under protection for many years to come. It may be that soon anyone can release some of the Sixties recordings, but they'll need to use the original vinyl as the source because if ABKCO can prove they are sourced from their copyrighted remasters (in some cases that is quite easy to do), they will be sued for infringement.

Yes, you mentioned this earlier, copyrighting remasters. However, over here it falls under the category of "law against unfair competition" which is a somewhat weaker sword than copyright and neighboring rights, effectively protecting not the recording itself, but more the substantial financial investment into a remastering work of old recordings. That's a tricky subject that alone could fill pages here once we go into details! Let's try to avoid that, after all we're not legal advisers for any young "public domain label entrepreneurs"...

Wild Slivovitz might have some more knowledge about this, perhaps..

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Hairball
... Their studio versions of My Girl and Under the Boardwalk were lame....

quite lame, and they don't really fit into anything the Stones have done. Those were poor choices of songs to cover.

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DandelionPowderman

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retired_dog

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Rocky Dijon
Sorry for not being more clear, Retired Dog, but I think that's been ABKCO's strategy in copyrighting remasters as "new work." It's a trick that's also been used when silent movies are restored and new intertitles added. Anyone can package and distribute grainy public domain copies, but if you distribute a restoration copy on the basis the film is public domain, you discover the restoration is under protection for many years to come. It may be that soon anyone can release some of the Sixties recordings, but they'll need to use the original vinyl as the source because if ABKCO can prove they are sourced from their copyrighted remasters (in some cases that is quite easy to do), they will be sued for infringement.

Yes, you mentioned this earlier, copyrighting remasters. However, over here it falls under the category of "law against unfair competition" which is a somewhat weaker sword than copyright and neighboring rights, effectively protecting not the recording itself, but more the substantial financial investment into a remastering work of old recordings. That's a tricky subject that alone could fill pages here once we go into details! Let's try to avoid that, after all we're not legal advisers for any young "public domain label entrepreneurs"...

Wild Slivovitz might have some more knowledge about this, perhaps..

Why? Is he a lawyer or a public domain label entrepreneur?

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exilestones
Is there an easy to read complete list of the songs the Stones recorded at Chess Studio? Thanks

I’d love to see a complete list, too.

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Rockman
A rare reel-to-reel tape recording of the Rolling Stones at the Crawdaddy Club, Richmond, Summer, 1963, approximate running time 90 minutes
To be sold without copyright
Estimate: £20,000-30,000

1. Route 66 [complete]
2. Come On
3. Talkin' Bout You
4. Love Potion No.9
5. Roll Over Beethoven
6. Money
7. Pretty Thing [complete]
8. Jaguar & Thunderbird
9. Don't Lie To Me
10.Our Little Rendezvous [complete, Chuck Berry's rewrite of Good Morning Little Schoolgirl - this Berry song is unknown in any other version by the Stones]
11.You Got Me Running
12.Brown Eyed Handsome Man
13.Diddley Diddley Daddy [complete]
14.Money [complete


Its rumoured that Mick Jagger purchased the above tape

These tapes are currently being showed on Exhibitionism. According to the description, it's part of the collection of the Rolling Stones Archive (there was a better photo which was posted here some years ago but this was the only one I could find)



[www.instagram.com]

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Big Al

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exilestones
Is there an easy to read complete list of the songs the Stones recorded at Chess Studio? Thanks

I’d love to see a complete list, too.

From Zentgraf:

640610C 10th June: Chicago, Chess Studios. Producer: Andrew Oldham. Sound engineer: Ron Malo.
- I Can't Be Satisfied (McKinley Morganfield) -The Rolling Stones No. 2-version
- It's All Over Now I (Bobby and Shirley Womack) -7“-version
- It's All Over Now II (Bobby and Shirley Womack) -US-single-edit
- Stewed And Keefed (Nanker Phelge) -STU on piano; instrumental
- Time Is On My Side I (Jerry Ragavoy) -with organ intro by STU; unverified early
version

640611D 11th June: Chicago, Chess Studios. Producer: Andrew Oldham. Sound engineer: Ron Malo.
- Around And Around (Chuck Berry) -STU on piano; Five By Five-version
- Confessin' The Blues (Walter Brown/Jay McShann) -STU on piano;
Five By Five-version
- Down In The Bottom (Willie Dixon)
- Down The Road Apiece (Don Raye) -STU on piano; The Rolling Stones
No. 2-version
- Empty Heart (Nanker Phelge) - Five By Five-version
- Hi-Heel Sneakers (Robert Higginbotham)
- If You Need Me (Wilson Pickett/Robert Bateman) -STU on organ;
Five By Five-version
- Look What You've Done (McKinley Morganfield) -STU on piano;
December’s Children-version
- Reelin' And Rockin' (Chuck Berry)
- Tell Me Baby (Big Bill Broonzy) -The Rest Of The Best-version
- 2120 South Michigan Avenue I (Nanker Phelge) -STU on organ; instrumental;
long version (f.e. on German Around And Around-album)
- 2120 South Michigan Avenue II (Nanker Phelge) -STU on organ,
instrumental; edited version of I; Five By Five-version

641108A 8th November: Chicago, Chess Studios. Producer: Andrew Oldham. Sound
Engineer: Ron Malo.
- Fanny Mae (Buster Brown/Robinson or Waymon Glasco) -unverified
- Good Bye Girl (BW)
- Key To The Highway (William Broonzy/Charles Segar) -STU on piano
and maybe Howlin’ Wolf on guitar
- Little Red Rooster II (Willie Dixon) -unconfirmed
- Mercy, Mercy I (Don Covay/Ronnie Miller) -early faster, funkier version
- Time Is On My Side III (Jerry Ragavoy) -guitar intro, STU on organ;
The Rolling Stones No.2-version
- What A Shame (MJ/KR) -STU on piano; 7“-version
Note: Good Bye Girl is also known as Get Back To The One You Love among
collectors. Lead singer of this BW-composition is MJ!
It is possible that the Stones re-recorded, overdubbed or mixed Little Red
Rooster on this occasion as well.

650510A 10th May: Chicago, Chess Studios. Producer: Andrew Oldham. Sound engineer:
Ron Malo.
- Mercy Mercy II (Don Covay/Ronnie Miller) -Out Of Our Heads-version
- Satisfaction I (MJ/KR) -early version with harmonica solo
- That's How Strong My Love Is (Roosevelt Jamison) -STU on piano;
Out Of Our Heads-version
- Try Me (James Brown) -STU on organ
- The Under Assistant West Coast Promotion Man I (Nanker Phelge) -STU on
piano, 7“-version
- The Under Assistant West Coast Promotion Man II (Nanker Phelge) -STU on
piano, extended The London Years-version (on CD in 1989)


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-09 23:30 by Deltics.

Thank you, Deltics!

So according the list Deltcs posted no new songs from Chess to discover except some rare versions of songs

__________________________

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Deltics
- Tell Me Baby (Big Bill Broonzy) -The Rest Of The Best-version

What is this ? the German Box from the 80s ? is it Tell Me (second version) ?
I

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djgab

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Deltics
- Tell Me Baby (Big Bill Broonzy) -The Rest Of The Best-version

What is this ? the German Box from the 80s ? is it Tell Me (second version) ?
I

From the German box set.
[www.youtube.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Thanks you very much Deltics
I always thought that this Tell Me was a different version of Tell Me (you're coming back) from the first LP
iorr.org/
it is a different story

Wow - incredible - They were really hitting all cylinders at Chess - it would be amazing to have a boxed set of those sessions some day.

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Big Al
Thank you, Deltics!

Yes, thank you very much!

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riccardo99
Listening to the stereo version it seemed to me that organ and piano at times are played at the same time, this could mean on the organ was a different guy (Jack Nitzsche who played the following day organ on Cry To Me?) as I don't think any overdub was done then. Alternatively, it could be Brian Jones who played organ on That's How Strong My Love Is on the same day.

I'm beginning to think it is Brian on organ. The organ solo is very basic sounding and I'm sure Stu could have played a lot better. Jack did play organ the following day on Cry To Me but that was at RCA Hollywood. What a busy schedule they had back then!

I think its a testament to Ron Malo and Chess Studios that the Chess Sessions are some of the best sounding Stones recordings of the Mid-60s. That echo is awesome. Since listening to Try Me, I've went back and listened to the Chess sessions and they sound amazing. Like Sun Studios or Motown, you can tell the Echo is natural as opposed to the artificial sounding echo that was created by the larger studios who were trying to emulate these small indie labels. I think of RCA who tried to emulate the Sun sound at Elvis' first session for Heartbreak Hotel and how they had to place mikes at the end of hallways to get the sound. It just wasn't as natural and the Stones were the same.

please can repost "Try me" ??