It's all due to attitudes really isn't it.

The Stones, still being a current & on-going entity, remain essentially in control of what they do and what product they release.

Mick probably remains the most influential and pro-active member of the band with regard to most activities [ Keith either goes with him or sulks & argues if he doesn't like the direction ]

Mick is not, and never has been, one for nostalgia or rehashing the past...
[Reminds him to much of his age perhaps...and obviously doesn't apply when writing set lists ].
He's not going to put an awful lot of energy or care into the compiling & release of artistically valuable outtakes or other unreleased material.

That said, the Stones machine obviously does see the commercial worth of "outtakes ", as the SF, EOMS & SG deluxe editions have demonstrated .

It's interesting that they haven't yet bitten the bullet of releasing any of this material outside the context of the album it's supposed to be connected with. [and some of those connections are tenuous at best].

Maybe the job will be better done by others once the band finally retire ?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-25 14:51 by Spud.

Coz they're no good?

Rod

Imho the (unwritten) book of rock biz said "thou shall open your vaults only when you're band is nomore". Basically opening the vaults meant you were done as a band and the Stones stuck to that rule.

Then Dylan (and Neil Young) broke that rule (as he broke many other rules before...) and Jagger warmed up to the idea of releasing archive material.

But obviously given the paucity of the content given to the fans I still think Jagger doesn't believe in the "open your vaults you can still keep going as an active creative entity" new rule.

EACH album between 68 and 81 should be re-released as a 5-cd box, much like what was done with Miles Davis discs.

Some of them are very good.

Others perhaps not so good ....and some, lousy

...but the good ones are certainly worth hearing and many make for enjoyable regular listening.

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bitusa2012
Coz they're no good?

Bullshit, there are some real gems there. and ofcourse songs that are shite. But that also happens on official albums.
jeroen

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dcba
Imho the (unwritten) book of rock biz said "thou shall open your vaults only when you're band is nomore". Basically opening the vaults meant you were done as a band and the Stones stuck to that rule.

Then Dylan (and Neil Young) broke that rule (as he broke many other rules before...) and Jagger warmed up to the idea of releasing archive material.

But obviously given the paucity of the content given to the fans I still think Jagger doesn't believe in the "open your vaults you can still keep going as an active creative entity" new rule.

EACH album between 68 and 81 should be re-released as a 5-cd box, much like what was done with Miles Davis discs.

jeroen

We need stuff like this:

Chainsaw Rocker





Still A Fool





Fast Talking, Slow Walking

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dcba
Imho the (unwritten) book of rock biz said "thou shall open your vaults only when you're band is nomore". Basically opening the vaults meant you were done as a band and the Stones stuck to that rule.

Then Dylan (and Neil Young) broke that rule (as he broke many other rules before...) and Jagger warmed up to the idea of releasing archive material.

But obviously given the paucity of the content given to the fans I still think Jagger doesn't believe in the "open your vaults you can still keep going as an active creative entity" new rule.

EACH album between 68 and 81 should be re-released as a 5-cd box, much like what was done with Miles Davis discs.

That's pretty ambitious - are there enough completed tracks to fill all those CDs?

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corriecas
It makes me wonder why. Dylan and neil young seem to do that.

Unlike Dylan, Neil Young, The Who, etc.. the Stones back catalog is still a strong seller, Hot Rocks alone is over 5,000 copies each week from streaming/sales in the U.S. that's over 250k a year from 1 album alone in 1 country, an archive release could sell 1/6 of that number (On Air has sold 47k in the U.S so far) so they are not interested on it.

Hot Rocks is at #172 on the Billboard 200 this week with 282 weeks on chart and counting...
[www.billboard.com]

But are sales the reason to do (or not do) an outtake project. I get the feeling that with, for example, Pete Townshend, he was proud of his creativity from decades past. Kind of 'you know our albums are classics, have a listen to some other cool ideas I was tinkering around with back then'.

I also accepted that PT might be a special case, a one-man-writing-arranging-playing-demoing machine, but surely the Stones must feel proud of some of their long jams, or unfinished ideas, where they got into a groove that made us all fans?

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peoplewitheyes
...surely the Stones must feel proud of some of their long jams, or unfinished ideas, where they got into a groove that made us all fans?

Keith is, certainly since it is the entire process of songwriting to him. Obviously, Mick isn't fond of it. He has stated many times for decades now that he prefers to enter the studio with finished songs, already arranged, and preferably with highly-polished demos in hand. Mick's preferred working method is to treat the Stones as session musicians who can come in, listen to the track a few times, and add their bits.

What is never commented on so far as I can tell is Charlie and Ronnie's apparent unwillingness to gather with Keith and run through the creative process as they used to do and wait for inspiration to strike. Bill complained about the tedium of the process and often missed sessions as a result. Charlie and Ronnie will both help Mick with arrangements whether for the Stones or solo and have done since the 1980s in the latter case. Ronnie hasn't worked out ideas with Keith since 1984 when they worked out the riffs that found their way to DIRTY WORK the following year. The final appearance of their weaving guitars in the studio.

As much as Keith praises Charlie publicly, I'm not aware of Charlie ever getting together with Keith to run down ideas. Keith has Steve Jordan or George Recile for that. Perhaps it's because Charlie or Ronnie flying from England to France to work with Mick is simpler than heading to New York to meet with Keith. Certainly there is more to their relationships than we know.

When TALK IS CHEAP came out, Charlie was quite vocal about saying the rhythms and ideas were the sort of things he wanted Keith to bring back to the Stones. Mutual friends in New York carried the message to Mick in 1987 that Keith thought some of the songs on PRIMITIVE COOL were very good and the sort of thing the Stones should be doing.

With all this mutual appreciation, one wonders why you don't find Keith working with his bandmates running down ideas ever. The only time it happened was when Keith got the band together at Rattlesnake in 2011 for a few days of jamming in an attempt to heal the rift LIFE tore through the band. Though it's not commented upon, it would appear more than just Mick were upset with Keith at the time of the book.

Just interesting food for thought that impacts not only their current work, but also why we don't hear outtakes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-25 19:36 by Rocky Dijon.

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Father Ted

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dcba

EACH album between 68 and 81 should be re-released as a 5-cd box, much like what was done with Miles Davis discs.

That's pretty ambitious - are there enough completed tracks to fill all those CDs?

Well I'd include "first takes" "run throughs" and outtakes. You know, the genesis of each song we know.
For example a LIB release would include the March'69 "You Need Someone" acetate, which is a precursor of LIB (the song).

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dcba

Jagger warmed up to the idea of releasing archive material.

Jagger only warmed up to opening the vaults once he realized that his band had no new creations. Take a look, in the 13 years since ABB in 2005, the Stones have released exactly 2 new original tunes - Doom & Gloom and One More Shot. Otherwise, it's been live stuff, outtakes, and a Dylan cover and 13 blues covers. Don't get me wrong, I love all the live stuff and the trickle of outtakes and cover versions they want to throw at us, but this business of the Stones remaining a creative entity or force is a farce. It all comes down to the benjamins these days. The reason we have not seen the 3-disc/per Beggars - Tattoo You is because no one has offered to pay the Stones what they want to sign off on whatever their "staff" can dig up and have injected, inspected, detected, infected, neglected, and (best of all!) selected for release.

I am all for "Tour" retrospectives such as the new Voodoo thing seems to purport to be. I, like most here at IORR, would buy them all, regardless if they include dismal offerings like Paris Olympia 2003 ("Band of Sh!te") or incredible stuff like Leeds 71 where the band was on fire.

Perhaps except for an occasional "one-off" song, the Stones are finished as an original creative machine. To their credit, other than the 4 new songs on Forty Licks, they have not tried to dress up a bunch of B2B-grade crap with all kinds of greatest hits to get the public to buy. Besides, few, if any, outside of the people in IORR, Shadoobee, Undercover, Norse Vikings, or other Stones' communities really care any more.

Hence, the present "State of the Stones' Union" is that we get 15 - 25 shows a year, spaced out 4-5 days apart so Keith can recover and be presentable on stage, warhorses-dominated setlists with only 1-2 rotated variety songs per show (so Keith's inability to recall how to play is not exposed), and the obligatory blues cover LP after 10 years of nothing new. Not too bad for people 75 years old.

Before you flame away, ask yourselves if you expected different. We look back at the unsurpassed (in rock & roll) highs of this band from 68-73 and forget that it was a half-century ago that Jagger-Richards wrote Sympathy for the Devil, Honky Tonk Women, Midnight Rambler, Gimme Shelter, You Can't Always Get What You Want, and Brown Sugar. When they were drugging, drinking, smoking,screwing, living, and being photographed in Nellcote, did anyone think that the Stones would be intact 45-50 years on? Nope. Neither did the Stones. They did not care then, but their handlers care now, because companies and people have paid billions to ensure that everything is released exactly when it will sell best, make the biggest splash, and put the most benjamins in everybody's pockets.

It's STILL only rock & roll, but instead of partying all night, as U2's front man, Hewson, said in 1987, rock & roll now wakes up and puts on its running shoes to work out so it can get to the office by 8.

So, "There's nothing really left for us to say, really, except to sing you all a good nightly song." -

Dear Stones,

Please release the 3-5 CD retrospective of all original LPs and one for each separate tour, including the best show and, as bonus trax, at least one version of each song played ("the goodies") before the world blows up.
Please release the goodies before I can no longer afford them.
Please release the goodies while I can still hear them.
Please release the goodies so we can bathe our souls in that collective electric audio manna that y'all call Rolling Stones Rock & Roll.

Just do it.

We'll forgive y'all for the price.

Just do it, please.
We'll forgive y'all for the fall-downs, the skinned knees, the out of tune guitars, and certainly for all the fazed cookies!

Just do it, now.

stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

Colorful in more ways than one!

I appreciate your passion even if I don't agree with all of your points.

..I'd like t hear more....

I personally am a big fan of stonesstein's "Band of Shite" every time he trundles it out. It's his very own war horse and it never fails to please.

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Rocky Dijon
I personally am a big fan of stonesstein's "Band of Shite" every time he trundles it out. It's his very own war horse and it never fails to please.

Thanks! And I really dig your percussion work on Sympathy during the Rock & Roll Circus! You ought to think of going into rock & roll as a career.

And what is this you don't agree with all of my points? Unfathomable that anyone would ever disagree with anything I write!

stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

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dcba

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Father Ted

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dcba

EACH album between 68 and 81 should be re-released as a 5-cd box, much like what was done with Miles Davis discs.

That's pretty ambitious - are there enough completed tracks to fill all those CDs?

Well I'd include "first takes" "run throughs" and outtakes. You know, the genesis of each song we know.
For example a LIB release would include the March'69 "You Need Someone" acetate, which is a precursor of LIB (the song).

Excluding the original album, you'll need 280 minutes of material to fill those CDs. I'd include 2xCD for a complete live show and other interesting live bits from that period. Still 140 mins left....

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Father Ted

Still 140 mins left....

Well there's a guy who just proved you can fill 6cd with basically 16 [13?] songs
[www.bobdylan.com]

Seriously I'm sure there's enough worthy material to fill 5cd's. I do think a 5-cd version of B&Blue would be ok if it included the "find a new guitarist" tapes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-27 17:18 by dcba.

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dcba

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Father Ted

Still 140 mins left....

Well there's a guy who just proved you can fill 6cd with basically 16 songs
[www.bobdylan.com]

Seriously I'm sure there's enough worthy material to fill 5cd's. I do think a 5-cd version of B&Blue would be ok if it included the "find a new guitarist" tapes.

Didn't The Beach Boys include like 30 takes of Good Vibrations on one box set?!

If they had some complete songs with Wayne Perkins etc, I'm all for hearing that. Maybe they can work up a live DVD too from one of the 1969 shows.

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Father Ted

If they had some complete songs with Wayne Perkins etc, I'm all for hearing that.

So am I (same for the Gallagher test tape). I also want the "bored to death" Jeff Beck material!

Seriously the Stones were hard-working guys so I'm sure there rows and rows of 16-tracks reels that contain material worth releasing. For example an expanded GHS should include the Jan.73 studio session described by N.Zentgraf :

27th - 30th January: Los Angeles, Village Recorders. Producer: Jimmy Miller.
Sound enginneer: Baker Bigsley. Additional musician: Nicky Hopkins (p, org).

- Dancing With Mr. D II (MJ/KR) -unverified alternate early version
- Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo II (MJ/KR) -unverified alternate early version
- Star Star II (MJ/KR) -unverified alternate early version
- Tops II (MJ/KR) -unverified alternate early version
- Windmill I (MJ/KR) -Nicky Hopkins on piano; instrumental; aka Wind Call
- Windmill II (MJ/KR) -Nicky Hopkins on piano; instrumental, with additional
slide guitar

Both versions of "Windmill" are splendid!

Windmill





[www.youtube.com]

DP, it's in open G, right?
The song goes like F C A/G/A then Keith moves to a D instead of the final A.

(btw the version that's on YT, taken from the old VGP-027 boot, runs too fast...
v2 with slide that on VGP-362 is fine).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-09-27 17:49 by dcba.

Definitely open G. But the intro sounds like it's in standard...

I would really really like to hear the (more percussive) Jimmy Miller produced mixes / tracks from Goats Head Soup. You can hear some on a cd called "Mad Shadows'

It really is insane that the band does not do 5-CD retrospectives for Beggars thru Goats Head Soup where we get this:

CD1 - the original LP remastered super-swell
CDs 2-3 - outtakes, 45 b-sides, unique mixes that were released (Sway & All Down the Line, anybody?)
CDs 4-5 - best complete live show from LPs' tour and then fill remainder of CD5 with the unique one-offs and songs from the tour (Uptight, Torn & Frayed, Sun is Shining, 100 Years Ago, Route 66 - LA 73, etc.)

This kind of thing would sell like ice cream to kids in July!

stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

Exile, the greatest of them all doesn't really have the best outtakes. Maybe because they used everything, and also because the raw sessions were really, really raw! But GHS deserves a nice overhaul by the band (well all the albums do).
"Save Me" alone is worth the price.

What the Stones should do is contract this out. Get some hardcores to do the slogging work, and then come in to fine tune.

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Palace Revolution 2000
Exile, the greatest of them all doesn't really have the best outtakes. Maybe because they used everything, and also because the raw sessions were really, really raw! But GHS deserves a nice overhaul by the band (well all the albums do).
"Save Me" alone is worth the price.

What the Stones should do is contract this out. Get some hardcores to do the slogging work, and then come in to fine tune.

Save Me is Criss Cross Mind, right?

Fast Talking is also from the GHS sessions?

Yeah, some good stuff from these sessions.

I'm not sure that I want any of this stuff releasing...

...'cos I bloody well can't afford it !