This is a very interesting conversation. I am a life long Stones fan. Their music was the soundtrack for my life-good and bad. However, there are friends of ours who I would call very conservative who can't stand them or their music. They viewed the Stones as hedonistic, outlaws and anarchists, and Mick Jagger in particular as misogynist. My wife herself (who spent much of her life working with women who were victims of domestic violence) never liked the Stones. She went along with it and tolerated their music in our house because she knew I liked them. But probably no other song turned her off than when I listened to Midnight Rambler (which still is one of my favorite songs-not so much because of the content, but because the way the song rocks out musically). I eventually did convince her (we are still together and doing well over 28 years!) that yes the Stones did have a dark side (which was their appeal) but they just didn't exclusively write "anti-women" songs and I played her tunes she really liked such as She's a Rainbow, Wild Horses, Ruby Tuesday, Angie, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-08-19 06:25 by Sighunt.

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Sighunt
This is a very interesting conversation. I am a life long Stones fan. Their music was the soundtrack for my life-good and bad. However, there are friends of ours who I would call very conservative who can't stand their them or their music. They viewed the Stones as hedonistic, outlaws and anarchists, and Mick Jagger in particular as misogynist. My wife herself (who spent much of her life working with women who were victims of domestic violence) never liked the Stones. She went along with it and tolerated their music in our house because she knew I liked them. But probably no other song turned her off than when I listened to Midnight Rambler (which still is one of my favorite songs-not so much because of the content, but because the way the song rocks out musically). I eventually did convince her (we are still together and doing well over 28 years!) that yes the Stones did have a dark side (which was their appeal) but they just didn't exclusively write "anti-women" songs and I played her tunes she really liked such as She's a Rainbow, Wild Horses, Ruby Tuesday, Angie, etc.

And yet, personally, I've not heard one single complaint against him from the 'Me too' campaign either in terms of his personal relationships or any claims that he has abused his power within the Stones organisation or Jagged Films..............

Very interesting thread – Jeroen´s statement (Black&Blue) also made me think.....as I didn´t like it (sorry)

Yes, the Stones used to cause „cognitive dissonance“ on me, in former times when I was young– especially the drug thing and the misogynic attitude – the last one is still an issue for me. I also couldn´t cope with some albums when I listened to them first (some are my favorites now).But times they are changing (and so are the Stones including their attitude, as well as mine).

Anyway I still think the Black&Blue woman poster is not just a poster with a sexy woman, but sexist and so are some of the Stones lyrics. I never liked that and this has nothing to do with hypocracy, morality or thinkin that it´s awful. It´s a political and social attitude. As I regard the Stones as a male biased band I do not expect a lot of appreciation here, but it makes a difference if you are male or female. For some it´s a sexy women, for others it´s sexism and sexism lies in the same range as racism and still is a sensitive issue that many are not willing to accept and even dismiss.

One shouldn´t take it too seriously, but still see, that lyrics, language, pictures and images etc... are patterns that influence global attitude, thinking and consciousness – especially when they come from (anti) role models like the Rolling Stones. But I disagree that actors have the same responsibility in their roles. Also it doesn´t matter what the Stones are doing in their private lives, I think.

Nowadays sensibility for those issues is very high in publicity compared to former times and that´s why I don´t blame the Stones any more for their „ignorance“ – and thus I myself do not have any cognitive dissonance any more – once in a while I just disagree with little things....

Re. The Black and Blue ad............

No, not for one minute did I figure that the Stones were suggesting that I tie up my girl and beat her up whilst listening to Black and Blue.................or that they were into that either......

There was no expression for it then - except "all publicity is good publicity" - but I figured they were just trolling to promote the album.....

I guess it could be deemed a bit of a sick joke but a joke none the less and, possibly, counter intuitively it might have even helped the 'anti violence against women' campaigns, doing some good by bringing the issue into the public consciousness, to garnish more support, albeit briefly...

Re. Some of the lyrics on Undercover - figurative words about their (Mick and Ron's from what I gathered from Keith) emotions in fairly turbulent relationships.................................................although as someone pointed out, the Stones have other songs that completely belie the notion that they are misogynistic - ie. Even on that album, Feel on, She was hot and Wanna hold you................

Also, the Black girl lyric in/on Some girls - yes, that is discriminatory but only because it presupposes and suggests that it doesn't also apply to girls of other races too............(when time, energy and health allow..........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-08-19 16:21 by EddieByword.

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corriecas
hahahahaha. all this talk , just because of the Bondage poster??
Come on, people...

Think about the other bad things in the world. The wars, the crimes, the racism, slaveries, under paid workers etc etc..
ofcourse it was a Joke by the Stones.. This is all white people talk..

Come on.

jeroen

Yeah, think about all the bad things in the world, as seen in the film "The Constant Gardener" (2005) for instance. A matter so bleak people left the cinema without saying a word. The film maker wanted to hold up a mirror in front of the viewer, asking "What are you gonna do about it?"

However, The Stones shouldn`t add to all the bad things in the world.

I can't stand being around people who are drunk or high, and probably wouldn't have liked being in a band with Keith and Ronnie back in the day, but I still love those guys - I didn't have to deal with them, lol. Rock on!

If sex, drugs, and rock and roll makes you uncomfortable maybe you should choose another genre of music to listen to. There are many.

it's way beyond that. they've made me quatro-polar, crawlin' toward cinco.
dangerous band. all i can do is warn people; that's all i can do.
it's not like they are going to undistribute it, or anything. get real.

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Rockman
...never had a problem with anything they did …… no grudge
Just want a new studio album ....... and I got enough supplies to hold-out forever …….. XFX

yup--got enough weed and beer to outlast them...but need that new LP soon!

No.
Yes.
No.
No.
I am not sure
what is

Edited 99 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2018 06:03AM by schillid.

well a few remarks from the plexi r in order ...

they represent everything that is against what i was raised with and raised to believe in. I was raised very strict Roman Catholic, had six members of the clergy on my mother's side (3 nuns and 3 priests) and two of my own brothers were (before they quit the order and got married) members of the Christian Brothers religious order. Especially things related to sex, but much more than that.

Now do I believe are everything that they r represented to be or in the image they propagate about themselves -- no, but that is also what makes them so appealing and often, belief in what they are is more powerful than the reality of what they are and, to paraphrase Napoleon and his statement about history, it is not so much what actually happened as what is BELIEVED to have happened, or a lie agreed upon, etc. Belief and perception is often more important and powerful than reality.

But I was a rebel against much of what I was raised with, especially the Catholic stuff. My dad and all four of my brothers went to St. Mary's College in the Bay Area but I chose to go to Cal (the University of California at Berkeley, which was (and remains) a symbol of rebellion. I am not a practicing Catholic and yet, all that stuff is at the core of my being (like H i t l e r's philosophy -say something often enuf and people will believe it) and I can't get away from it. I don't believe all of it, yet part of me does. Contradictions abound.

I really do not like some of their lyrics and behaviour. But at the same time, I love it. Cognitive dissonance, indeed!


the plexi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-08-20 02:46 by timbernardis.

No.


This:
cognitive consonance. State of harmony and internal consistency arising from compatibility among a person's attitudes, behavior, beliefs, and/or knowledge. Opposite of cognitive dissonance.

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MKjan
No.


This:
cognitive consonance. State of harmony and internal consistency arising from compatibility among a person's attitudes, behavior, beliefs, and/or knowledge. Opposite of cognitive dissonance.

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MisterDDDD

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MKjan
No.


This:
cognitive consonance. State of harmony and internal consistency arising from compatibility among a person's attitudes, behavior, beliefs, and/or knowledge. Opposite of cognitive dissonance.

natural born fans we are

I think mere life, human existance in itself, is one big 'cognitive dissonance' between who you are/ aspire to be on the one hand, and how other people see you/ expect you to be on the other.

That about wraps it up for me... - now I'll get me coat.

Me ?

I just like the noise they make .

One thing that may cause some cognitive dissonance with me, if ever so slightly, is Sir Michael's cosmopolitan, tax dodging lifestyle with more and more women, younger and younger, spread all over the world. Together with expensive houses, castles and tropical islands. I use the term harem here. Sir Michael is like a modern day pasha. And his knighthood has caused me some CD too... But I know mentioning this is tabu and that some would say I'm only jealous. Or uptight. Or moralistic. Fair enough.

I`ve often thought that in previous times with less politics, if not to say less global entertainment, a person like M. Jagger would have been an emperor.

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Stoneage
If sex, drugs, and rock and roll makes you uncomfortable maybe you should choose another genre of music to listen to. There are many.

I would, but the Stones make my favourite noise to listen to.

Maybe it's like horror films: you don't have to be a murderer (or approve of murderers) to enjoy Psycho - or Midnight Rambler.

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Stoneage
One thing that may cause some cognitive dissonance with me, if ever so slightly, is Sir Michael's cosmopolitan, tax dodging lifestyle with more and more women, younger and younger, spread all over the world. Together with expensive houses, castles and tropical islands. I use the term harem here. Sir Michael is like a modern day pasha. And his knighthood has caused me some CD too... But I know mentioning this is tabu and that some would say I'm only jealous. Or uptight. Or moralistic. Fair enough.

I would say, that's his cognitive dissonance spilling over into you (and me) - writing about how awful the establishment is, for years; and then accepting awards from it...... - hence the mouth presents up and down at the same time............

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Stoneage
If sex, drugs, and rock and roll makes you uncomfortable maybe you should choose another genre of music to listen to. There are many.

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Stoneage
One thing that may cause some cognitive dissonance with me, if ever so slightly, is Sir Michael's cosmopolitan, tax dodging lifestyle with more and more women, younger and younger, spread all over the world. Together with expensive houses, castles and tropical islands. I use the term harem here. Sir Michael is like a modern day pasha. And his knighthood has caused me some CD too... But I know mentioning this is tabu and that some would say I'm only jealous. Or uptight. Or moralistic. Fair enough.

I rather say that your posts express a somewhat forlorn "left wing" outlook.

When you are that outspoken yourself towards others, maybe you should follow a variant of your own advice. Not to choose another genre of music. But choose another band that never made it big time. Where no members have been knighted. Where none of them became rich. Consequently, where band members will not be able to enter into relationships socially downwards by virtue of their rock career. In a more impertiment language, will not be able to "----ing downwards" as to age or social attitude. That is, in case, as you maybe will have it, it is thereby exclusively that your object for criticism has got his attraction from.

Much later edit: I replaced the first four letters in a "four letter word" by ---- after having read.

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bv
Another reason for changing offensive words into !"#¤%&/%¤# style is that some search engines and firewalls do block traffic with such words, in fact they will categorize sites with offensive talk as "entertainment" or "offensive" or "adult" and you will not be able to read IORR from every network like work, libary or may be if you travel to a place where they do not accept such. So I try to make IORR 100% available and out of any ban lists.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-08-23 09:05 by Witness.

Sure, Witness. What I'm trying to describe associating to the term cognitive dissonance here is the dualism between mocking the society and then accepting decorations from it and rebel against society and then find yourself being a member of high society. Not left wing or right wing values per se. And I use the term "ever so slightly" deliberately.

However, the society's cultural order that the Stones among others rebelled against, was transformed during the process. So what Mick Jagger to some extent embraced, is something different from that, which he rebelled against.

(Not that I would have preferred Mick Jagger to accept a knighthood. But that is not a big deal for me. It is only of slight consequence for my attitude to him. I have always made a distinction between 'idealization' and 'idolization'. They may be taken as empty words presented without explanation. My worship of the Rolling Stones has involved the latter, though, and not the former.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-08-21 19:13 by Witness.

I have a mind of my own.

Bjornulf

I once urinated against the boundary wall...and never got caught

__________________________

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bv
I have a mind of my own.

And you use it mighty fine...

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peoplewitheyes

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bv
I have a mind of my own.

And you use it mighty fine...

Good one, mister eyes!


plexi

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timbernardis

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peoplewitheyes

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bv
I have a mind of my own.

And you use it mighty fine...

Good one, mister eyes!


plexi

+1!

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Stoneage
If sex, drugs, and rock and roll makes you uncomfortable maybe you should choose another genre of music to listen to. There are many.

I don't know: Berlioz composed Symphonie Fantastique while on opium. Schubert may have died from a sexually transmitted disease, and Tchaikovsky was bisexual in an age when it was dangerous to be so.

I don't think, however, that the Stones cause you to want to behave in a violent, misogynistic way. If you took on board every example of bad behaviour in music and song-form, or any other art form, and felt that you couldn't or shouldn't listen to this, or read that, you'd end up artistically bereft.

For example: would Hamlet make me want to either a) kill my brother, or b) behave appallingly towards a lover, or c) kill my uncle because of a ghost ? I would say not.

Likewise, would I murder a guest because my wife, or because I met 3 witches, compelled me to do so, as in Macbeth ? Or, would I kill my father and marry my mother, as per Sophocles' Oedipus ? These are extremes in emotion that create a sense of katharsis, using the Aristotelian exemplar from his Poetics, which Jagger / Richards also deployed as artists in their songs.

You could listen to Delia's Gone by Johnny Cash, or Folsom Prison Blues also by Cash, or Cocaine Blues, and that won't mean that you will need to go out and live like that.

Additionally, if you listen to 1952 Vincent Black Lightning by Richard Thompson, that doesn't mean that you're going to hotwire a motor bike, and engage in armed robbery: or, if you listen to Cold Kisses by Richard Thompson, it may not mean that you will rifle through your partner's drawers and clothing looking for love letters, or other personal effects.