"Taylor was becoming Jagger's main writing partner back in the early 70's. Keith was MIA on a lot of stuff".

Which stuff was in reality Jagger/Taylor? Are you sure this is true?

ponymusic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the link for Mick with GD at MSG:
> [hans.users.sunwave.net]
>
Gorgeous--thanks so much!

Ok this is getting out of hand. MLC, first you say Taylor is the reason why the Stones are what they are and not another joke band from the 60's, you also say that nobody could have done for the Stones what Taylor did, and now you are saying Taylor was becoming Jagger's main writing partner in the early 70s. In case you didn't know Exile has Keith written all over it. Yes Taylor probably deserved a few song writing credits on certain songs from this era but come on.

If Taylor is such a good songwriter than why has he never done anything that stands out in his solo career.

Ringo - Sticky F. - Sway, Moonlight Mile (Keith wasn't in the Studio!)
CYHMK - Taylor's addition at the end, he just kept playing when the song was suppost to end, Jagger/Richards included it in - no writing credit!

Goats H.S. - Winter, Hide your Love, Time Waits for no One. How's that for a few.

JJ - Have you listened to any of Taylor Solo stuff??

I'll take his 1st solo record over any of Jagger/Richards solo stuff
also his last release - A Stones Throw, blow's any of keith's stuff out of the water, do like jagger's 1st solo release and "Throw AwaY" from his 2nd - he teamed with Jeff Beck beautifully...

MLC

MLC, do you understand what earns you a credit as a songwriter? If you play a cool solo in a song it doesn't mean you get credit for writing the song. Its mostly about harmony and lyrics. Yes I own all of Taylor's solo albums as well as a bunch of bootlegs. I would not call him a great song writer or in the league of Mick and Keith. I think Keith's solo album are much better written than Taylor's, but that is all opinion. I would say that as a solo artist Ronnie Wood has put out better stuff than anyone in the Stones.

Again its all a matter of taste, you say you like Jagger's first two solo albums but to me those were his worst. Wandering Spirit is IMO his best. Yes Jeff Beck was on his first two albums, it sounds to me like you are digging stuff just by the name of the guitarist on the album. Jeff Beck didn't write any of that music, he was pretty much a studio guitarist for Jagger on those.

j-j flash is right sorry!!!

Exile is basically Keith.

After that he didn't do many rockers of note. He did Angie and Coming Down Again.
I think the other rockers on GHS are MickJ.

Ditto on IORR.

On B&B maybe HOF is a Keith rocker. I think all the other creations are mainly Mick's ideas.

Most of SG strikes me as Jagger songs.

SMU - well maybe a Keith riff - but it started life as Reggae.

These are just loose, random spontaneous thoughts btw. Just thinking out loud.

Undercover has some stronger Keith stuff. Then, obviously DW. Even more so SW.

But relly it's been mainly Mick since '72.

It's certainly mainly Mick on ABB. Keith is mainly a ballad-man now.

KEITH DON'T GO!

Too Late?

GHS and IORR were more taylor/jagger input then jagger/richards. Thats the
direction the band was going in due to keith's drug addiction and not being
in the studio all the time.

The key with the song credits is MT helped and crafted the songs and got them
completed with jagger when he needed that 2nd guitar on sway,winter,moonlight
etc.THAT is HUGE IMO getting the finished product done and out the door to
generate ALBUM SALES THAT keith got instead of1/3 share writing credit for
those songs .

"GHS and IORR were more taylor/jagger input then jagger/richards. Thats the
direction the band was going in due to keith's drug addiction and not being
in the studio all the time."

Ok song by song, tell me if I am off. Looks like Keith was still doing something.

GHS
Dancing with Mr. D... all Keith
100 Years Ago... said to be written in the late 60's. Taylor's playing did take this song to another level.
Coming Down Again... all Keith
Angie... mostly Keith
Silver Train... mostly Keith
Hide Your Love... could have been more Taylor than Keith who knows
Winter... Jagger/Taylor
Can You Hear the Music...Keith said he wrote the riff but probably more Taylor, but its the weakest song on the album in my opinion.
@#$%&... Keith

IORR
If You Can't Rock Me... standard Keith/Mick rocker
Aint Too Proud... cover
IORR... more Ronnie and Keith
If You Really... Mick ballad, so-so song.. Taylor may have played a role who knows
TWFNO... Taylor's guitar bring the song to life, Jagger's sound is all over the melody and lyrics
Luxury... Sounds very Keith to me
Dance Little Sister... sounds very Keith to me
Shorts & Curlies... Taylor shines
Till the next time.. sounds like Jagger solo, but Taylor probably contributed more than Keith
Fingerprint File.. Jagger song, Keith on lead I beleive Taylor on bass.


Overall I find IORR to be one of the Stones weaker efforts so if that is your argument for Jagger and Taylor being the more notebale song writing team in the early 70s its not a good one.

mick taylor is a great guitarist...anyone with a good pair of ears can hear it....the rolling stones heyday included mick taylor....get it straight: he is not Mr. songwriter...hes a bandmate, role player type of guy....and to think the stones couldnt have "gone on" without him is DELUSIONAL!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-09-30 23:02 by Leonard Keringer.

j-j is right and open G u know your stuff...i just like going to the nieghborhood bar 78th and 2nd..NYC & and play every stones song on the juke box i can ...taylor or no taylor ....brown sugar, sweet virgina,htw,sftd, dead flowers, GS,loving cup,dont stop,beast of burden, ruby tuesday,........(the juke box has exile, sticky fingers, 40 licks)....19 nervous breakdown, cant you hear me knocking, sway,under my thumb miss you .......i also throw in a few others just to mix it up....chile peppers..."scar tissue" G&R "sweet child" rod stewart " stay w/ me" allmans "blue sky..Bowie "young americans "..etc ......but when the stones go on all the people start jamming and the bar tenders knoiw me and my buddies are there....so my point is its all good!!!

im looking back: i can see the headline now in 1974 "MICK TAYLOR QUITS STONES, STONES BREAK UP!!!!.......what a joke!!!

These Taylorites are beginning to tick me off. Now they're saying that the Stones were nothing before MT came from heaven and joined the band. Maybe they should be reminded of this: The Stones were the world's GREATEST rock band this side of the Beatles for a better part of a decade before MT joined up. Should these Taylorites be informed of who the Beatles were? I am sorry to remind them that the Stones' heyday years were from 1962-1972, the wonderful MT being a member only three of those years. All this talk about Mick Taylor saving the Stones from mediocrity is getting out of hand . . .

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These Taylorites are beginning to tick me off.
> Now they're saying that the Stones were nothing
> before MT came from heaven and joined the band.
> Maybe they should be reminded of this: The Stones
> were the world's GREATEST rock band this side of
> the Beatles for a better part of a decade before
> MT joined up. Should these Taylorites be informed
> of who the Beatles were? I am sorry to remind
> them that the Stones' heyday years were from
> 1962-1972, the wonderful MT being a member only
> three of those years. All this talk about Mick
> Taylor saving the Stones from mediocrity is
> getting out of hand . . .


RIDE ON NEPTUNE....MAYBE YOU ENDED THIS THREAD?...thanks

J-J-Flash Wrote:
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> Angie... mostly Keith

I believe Taylor said that the Angie melody came from him noodling in the studio with Richards. I don't think he ever claimed to write the song. With regard to other songs, I think he was ticked off about being told he would receive credits and then not getting them, but he's given different stories at different times, sometimes saying he should have gotten credit, other times saying it was not an issue.

> Overall I find IORR to be one of the Stones weaker
> efforts

I think Taylor would agree. He was not there for most of the studio sessions. I think he's said his favorite is Exile.


As for what he has written after the Stones, I'm not sure that matters. Krieger wrote many of the Doors' hits, but no hits afterward. Does his post-Doors output mean he did not write those songs with the Doors? I'm sure there are other examples. Still, I enjoy Taylor's post-Stones studio stuff. It's not going to appeal to the pop crowd, but I consider that to count in its favor.




>

Neptune,

Firstly, I'm not a Taylorite.

Secondly, no-one said Taylor saved Stones from mediocrity.

Thirdly, they were an R&B unit at first. Then moved into pop. Then a brief dalliance with psychodelia and satanism. THEN Beggars and LIB.

But Jones was a gonner.

THEN Mick Taylor. THEN '69 tour and Ya-Yas and......their own record label and lots of amazing studio work, fanatastic concerts and lots of money and Superstardom. All in the space of about 4 years - from '69 to '73.

That is when 'IT' happened for them. Taylor was 'instrumental' in that.

And for your benefit, I'll repeat, most of the albums i listen to are the ones without Taylor. I happen to like Taylor's style and think his live work is still amazing.

I am wanting to point out how important he was in his time with them. That's all.


Oh, and to someone else above:

Siver Train was started in '69/70. Maybe a Keith song but not very contempoaray by 1973.

Dancing with D is basically Mick, but Keith supplies one (repetetive) riff.

Luxury is Mick song I think. But with nice Keith touches ofcourse.

Dance Little Sister may be a Keith Riff - but man it's dull. Certainly the (stupid) lyrics are Mick. Great groove - but a nothing song.

Again, IYCRM - a one, riff song but dominated by Jagger.

IORR track - A Ronnie Song + Jagger lyrics.

Time Waits/FF/IYRWTBMF/SAC/TTNG all basically Mick.

I know Keith did some tasty stuff on SG album - but again that's mainly a Mick and Ronnie album.

Tattoo You - mainly out-takes from early/mid seventies.

ER and Undercover. More Keith. DW - very Keith. SW - sort of 'even stevens'.

Anyway...... if there's any point to this rambling... it is just that after Exile Keith never really fully wrote many rockers of note on a Stones' album.

Four Stone Walls Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
it is just that after Exile Keith
> never really fully wrote many rockers of note on a
> Stones' album.
>
>


Absolute crap! what a load of bollocks, people please don't believe this shite!
Keith may have not been that involved in ABB but to say he "never fully wrote rockers" since 72, is so much crap. @#$%& Mick Taylor, he is a just a very good guitar player, dime a dozen compared to great songwriters like Keith Richards

Ket Wrote:
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> > >
> >
>
>
> Mick Taylor, he is a just a
> very good guitar player, dime a dozen compared to
> great songwriters like Keith Richards
>
>
agreed 100% ... the songwriters are the real masters...the stones "brought out the best in taylor" not the other way around....thats his quote




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-01 04:13 by Leonard Keringer.

Leonard Keringer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ket Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> the stones "brought out the best in
> taylor" not the other way around....thats his
> quote

His pre-Stones work rivals his work with the Stones.

Dear Ket,

I was rambling out loud to myself about Keith.

I'm not claiming that it's gospel truth at all. I was simply going through the albums and trying to work out which rocker songs are mainly Keith. Then I realised that I couldn't think of many and I concluded that they are largely Mick.

Perhaps you can?. It' sure is open to discussion - but probably this was the wrong thread for that.

Jagger saved the stones and keith after taylor left - I really wonder who wrote
90% of the lyrics that were jagger/richards sings excluding the few songs
keith wrote each record.I would say jagger wrote most of the lyrics or took
a couple of words from keith and finished songs that were jagger/richards songs
and not keith songs. keith has not really matured as a guitar player same with
wood.keith plays the same chuck berry riffing for 40 years how original.

taylor changed the sound of the stones from a pop sound live to more of a blusier
dirty sound that fit in nicely as the stones hit 1970's and making pop records
in the studio were less important now it was all about the live shows with
them competing with the other classic bands during that time.

hey JJF - GHS has a different feel on the record that is mainly due to
jagger/taylor and not keith.IORR - keith would go into the studio at night
and erase taylor parts . He was scared of taylor and jagger becoming a team
in some way in the studio. Taylor was good for keith because he made keith
play his ass off because keith had to keep up with taylor's blistering,
piercing guitar LINES. NO POSING WITH TAYLOR.

OpenG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> taylor changed the sound of the stones from a pop
> sound live to more of a blusier
> dirty sound that fit in nicely as the stones hit
> 1970's and making pop records
> in the studio were less important now it was all
> about the live shows with
> them competing with the other classic bands during
> that time.
>


this change in sound did not begin with Jumping Jack flash? Beggars Banquet??? No the change in sound began with getting Jimmie Miller to produce, nothing at all to do with Taylor, ut happened well before him

I agree with that Ket.

But it was their live legacy from 1969 to '73 that launched them skyewards.

And returning to my other theme above..... it's notable that most of the Keith warhorses in their current set predate 1973.

Reading some of these posts here make me wonder why I even bother. No idea why some people come to this board. I think its just to piss people off. I am convinced that MLC is a 15 year old boy who knows nothing about music and simply can't defend any of his comments. So he will hide and come back and say the same exact thing. At least some people can make intelligent arguments, even if they are crazy ones.

What changed the stones ...imho was guys like Ry Cooder, Bob Dylan, Gram Paresons......Kind bud and learning to really play open tunings..not many bands have or really jam w/ open tunings...thats what did it Mt was just there when it happened...he is no jimi Hendrixs...no ofense but if MT was so great he would be a superstar w/ out ya 'all beging and pleding for the stones to let him plug in for some nostalgic "Moonlight Mile" .......

That's a silly argument.

Keith Richards is no Jimmie Hendrix. Nor is George Harrison, nor Richie Blackmore, Dave Gilmour, Peter Green..............etc, etc.

Not all great guitarists are superstars. They are not all overt egotists.

The point that I (and MLC) are making is that MT WAS/IS a great guitarist but is not getting that recognition.

If people bought Ya-Yas in 1970 they would have noticed MT.
So would they if they'd bought the next three to four albums and gone to a show from 1970 to 1973.

Please give us some credit. We were there and have strong memories. Infact a Stones show with Taylor in it was a pretty unforgettable experience. (It was ofcourse memorable for the other four too).

He was an intrinsic and vital element of their live and studio sound and extremely instrumental to their superstardom status, which they earned primarily in those years.