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Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 7, 2019 12:00

Quote
JumpingKentFlash
The Stones has nothing to do with it. It was Klein. Ashcroft should have made sure he had his legal shit together. It’s more or less his own fault.

You could say the same about The Stones and their 60s contracts with Klein/ABKCO.
They should have taken and listened to independent advice at the time. No way should your Managers own your recording and publishing rights whilst simultaneously 'managing your interests'. And also not taking care of their tax affairs of course.

Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: January 7, 2019 13:53

Quote
BluzDude
[youtu.be]

Hey, check this out .....at 6:40

Ridiculous. However, this version clearly shows that the Oldham Orchestra sample made the tune a hit. Without it, there's not much left, in particular not enough that's worth stretching it to 9 minutes +.

Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: January 8, 2019 00:48

Quote
potus43
If the Stones were involved at all they are a worse disgrace than I thought when it comes to greed

If you would ever read anything it would be a miracle.

Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: January 8, 2019 08:13

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Since it seems that the relationship between the Stones camp and Ashcroft is intact, it could be that behind closed doors the Stones themselves made matters right with Ashcroft. That is the one thing that had bothered me in the whole mess: that the Stones really didn't need that money, and that hit; and it could make a world of difference for much smaller artists. Who also are big fans.
And to be honest: was there anyone in this world who heard "Bittersweet", and went "Hey wait just one minute! That's 'The Last Time' by the Stones, God damnit!" Not until it became a legal matter did anyone even take notice.
Georgie48 says it was Klein or ABCKO though. The suits.

You are right, Palace. Listening only to the Stones' version of The Last Time would take a genius to make the link with "Bittersweet". Funny enough, when I heard "Bittersweet" for the very first time somehow I immediately linked it to the ALO Orchestre version! It could be that I had listened to that ALO CD a couple of times "just before", so my first impulsive reaction was that they "stole it". Off course I didn't know anything about that sample business. So after that my conclusion changed from "they stole it" to "they crossed the line/rules for sample use". One can argue about the level of "financial punishment".

Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 8, 2019 12:55

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
BluzDude
[youtu.be]

Hey, check this out .....at 6:40

Ridiculous. However, this version clearly shows that the Oldham Orchestra sample made the tune a hit. Without it, there's not much left, in particular not enough that's worth stretching it to 9 minutes +.

The sample is literally a few bars from the intro of the ALOO version. The distinctive skipping string motif etc on BSS is not sampled from that.

...

It's funny though.

Brian's guitar riff, which he came up with, is a key thing of importance here...

It helps the stones song be something special. In slowed down form it is the basis for the tubular bells and bass on the ALOO version and also for the bass and skipping string motif on BSS.


Shows how ridiculous song writing credits can be.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 8, 2019 13:24

Quote
matxil


I agree mostly with you, but one thing I don't understand: why do you say Brian Jones made it a hit? I thought the main riff was done by Keith?

No, Brian came up with the riff.

Keith told us in a 1965 issue of Beat Instrumental.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: matxil ()
Date: January 8, 2019 14:12

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
matxil

I agree mostly with you, but one thing I don't understand: why do you say Brian Jones made it a hit? I thought the main riff was done by Keith?

No, Brian came up with the riff.

Keith told us in a 1965 issue of Beat Instrumental.

Wow, yeah, I just checked a few of their early performances and saw that indeed, Brian is playing the riff. I never knew that. That riff makes the whole song.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Date: January 8, 2019 14:14

Quote
matxil
Quote
His Majesty
Quote
matxil

I agree mostly with you, but one thing I don't understand: why do you say Brian Jones made it a hit? I thought the main riff was done by Keith?

No, Brian came up with the riff.

Keith told us in a 1965 issue of Beat Instrumental.

Wow, yeah, I just checked a few of their early performances and saw that indeed, Brian is playing the riff. I never knew that. That riff makes the whole song.

Brian plays it, but I don't recall reading that he wrote the riff.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 8, 2019 14:21

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000


Brian plays it, but I don't recall reading that he wrote the riff.

August 1965 issue of Beat Instrumental:

Who Plays Lead Figure

Keith answered the question which has been asked by many people before now. Who plays the prominent guitar figure on The Stones releases, Brian or Keith?
''I played it on Satisfaction he says, Brian played it on The Last Time. It all depends on who thinks it up.''

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Date: January 8, 2019 14:24

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000


Brian plays it, but I don't recall reading that he wrote the riff.

August 1965 issue of Beat Instrumental:

Who Plays Lead Figure

Keith answered the question which has been asked by many people before now. Who plays the prominent guitar figure on The Stones releases, Brian or Keith?
''I played it on Satisfaction he says, Brian played it on The Last Time. It all depends on who thinks it up.''
LOL I simply knew you were going to have a n answer to that one. One thing I love about the old TV clips is you can figure parts out. I saw Keith play the "Last Time" solo , and it was like "Oh!

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 8, 2019 14:28

Yeah, Keith plays the solo, Brian keeps playing his riff.

A recurring scenario through Jones era stones music of Brian playing a repetitive figure with variations and Keith doing rhythms, fills and solos.

There are exceptions of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-08 14:31 by His Majesty.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: Ronnierocks ()
Date: January 10, 2019 13:51

I wouldn't feel too sorry for Richard Ashcroft.
I saw him play at The Forum, London in Dec 2018 and 'Bittersweet Sympathy' was
the final song played and it was a superb extended version.
It is still a highlight of his career.
Also bear in mind the album in came from 'Urban Hymns' has sold over
3 million copies in the UK....more than any Stones album in the UK....

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 11, 2019 15:44

What ever the whatevs, a 50/50 split might have been more fair although even that is being overly generous to ABKCO.

At the very least Ashcroft did write the great lyrics which absolitely caught the imagination of the moment in UK. The melody he sings is in no way a note for note iteration of either the stones or the ALOO Last Time. It is mostly different rather than similar.

This is just another instance of big business @#$%& over the common man.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 11, 2019 16:04

Quote
His Majesty
What ever the whatevs, a 50/50 split might have been more fair although even that is being overly generous to ABKCO.

At the very least Ashcroft did write the great lyrics which absolitely caught the imagination of the moment in UK. The melody he sings is in no way a note for note iteration of either the stones or the ALOO Last Time. It is mostly different rather than similar.

This is just another instance of big business @#$%& over the common man.

Presumably Ashcroft could have appealed the verdict?
He is hardly the 'common man' without the financial resources to challenge a (somewhat dubiuos) verdict.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 11, 2019 16:13

Quote
jlowe


Presumably Ashcroft could have appealed the verdict?
He is hardly the 'common man' without the financial resources to challenge a (somewhat dubiuos) verdict.

Who knows?

In context he and they most certainly were. They were just lads from Wigan with up to that time indie levels of success. Little in the way of power and money when compared to ABKCO.

Even a wold famous and successful stones suffered heavily in battle with that lot.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 11, 2019 16:33

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
jlowe


Presumably Ashcroft could have appealed the verdict?
He is hardly the 'common man' without the financial resources to challenge a (somewhat dubiuos) verdict.

Who knows?

In context he and they most certainly were. They were just lads from Wigan with up to that time indie levels of success. Little in the way of power and money when compared to ABKCO.

Even a wold famous and successful stones suffered heavily in battle with that lot.

The Stones battles were over a range of issues:copyright ownership, royalty payments being the most obvious. It seems they chose to settle their first and main lawsuit within 12 months of issuing it (ie a very short time by litigation norms)because they didn't legally have much of a case. Also, mistakenly in my view, they just 'wanted to have nothing more to do with Klein' (Micks quote, not mine).Of course that was very naive. ABKCO owned the copyrights so of course there would be ongoing business dealings which we are all very aware of.
But yes, take your point:Ashcroft was not a rich man at the time of the legal action.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 11, 2019 16:50

Really naive from the Verve too. They should just have done things a little bit differently and not used a sample that connected them to well known arseholes ABKCO.

The actual sample is not even that important to the track.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: ovalvox ()
Date: January 12, 2019 19:30

After reading all of this there is only one solution to this problem. The only thing that stands out out of all of the versions of this public domain song is this. Brian Jones' guitar part that he wrote as verified by Keith Richards and Bill Wyman. He should get the song writing credit. Maybe his estate should sue Jagger, Richards, Oldham, Ashcroft and the Klein clan. Let's face it. Take Brian's guitar out of it and there would have been no argument. No hit single. No Oldham symphony of this. No Bittersweet with any of this in there because Oldham would have never used a Brian song in his orchestra. It's a simple solution really. Brian was the only one who transformed this song to make it sound original from the public domain version. Let me make the correction below.

The Last Time
(Brian Jones)

There it's fixed. Can someone pass this along to all of the parties listed above? Thanks!smileys with beer



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-12 19:32 by ovalvox.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 12, 2019 19:57

grinning smiley

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: January 12, 2019 22:48

Quote
ovalvox
After reading all of this there is only one solution to this problem. The only thing that stands out out of all of the versions of this public domain song is this. Brian Jones' guitar part that he wrote as verified by Keith Richards and Bill Wyman. He should get the song writing credit. Maybe his estate should sue Jagger, Richards, Oldham, Ashcroft and the Klein clan. Let's face it. Take Brian's guitar out of it and there would have been no argument. No hit single. No Oldham symphony of this. No Bittersweet with any of this in there because Oldham would have never used a Brian song in his orchestra. It's a simple solution really. Brian was the only one who transformed this song to make it sound original from the public domain version. Let me make the correction below.

The Last Time
(Brian Jones)

There it's fixed. Can someone pass this along to all of the parties listed above? Thanks!smileys with beer

Youre right of course. The Last Time (Jagger/Richards/Jones). Jumpin Jack Flash (Jagger/Richards/Wyman).

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: ovalvox ()
Date: January 13, 2019 00:03

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
ovalvox
After reading all of this there is only one solution to this problem. The only thing that stands out out of all of the versions of this public domain song is this. Brian Jones' guitar part that he wrote as verified by Keith Richards and Bill Wyman. He should get the song writing credit. Maybe his estate should sue Jagger, Richards, Oldham, Ashcroft and the Klein clan. Let's face it. Take Brian's guitar out of it and there would have been no argument. No hit single. No Oldham symphony of this. No Bittersweet with any of this in there because Oldham would have never used a Brian song in his orchestra. It's a simple solution really. Brian was the only one who transformed this song to make it sound original from the public domain version. Let me make the correction below.

The Last Time
(Brian Jones)

There it's fixed. Can someone pass this along to all of the parties listed above? Thanks!smileys with beer

Youre right of course. The Last Time (Jagger/Richards/Jones). Jumpin Jack Flash (Jagger/Richards/Wyman).

You forgot one.

Ruby Tuesday
(Richards/Jones)

Mick admitted to having nothing to do with this song except singing it.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: UGot2Rollme ()
Date: January 13, 2019 06:21

Well karma finally caught up with Klein - he had several heart attacks and Alzheimers ruled the last 5 years of his life - he died at age 77.

Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 13, 2019 07:03

Oh my.

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