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I agree.
Amazing really. Keith stole it from the Staple Singers. Brian Jones made it a hit. Oldham stole it from the Stones and then Ashcroft made his version a hit. I'm starting to think that if anyone deserves a songwriting credit it was Jones and Ashcroft. Takes those two out of the mix and Jagger, Richards, Oldham and Klein would have earned zero dollars. Without Jones' guitar none of this would have been possible. No Stones hit. No Verve hit. No double royalties for for the others.
I remember seeing Oasis in Dublin around the time this was out, and in between the support band and them, the bittersweet symphony video was played on the big screens and everytime Ashcroft bumped into someone the whole crowd went “Ole”
That song is a soundtrack of those few months. I’m not a big fan of the song incidentally!
Yes he did!
Oh and he's really pissed at ABKCO these days too...
Richard Ashcroft "I'm Coming For My Money, Man"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-04 22:55 by Kurt.
I thought this was fairly common knowledge. It's been discussed a number of times on this board. As well, several Youtube videos discussing this.
What I thought was weird is when they gave kd lang a songwriting credit on Anybody Seen My Baby since it sounds like Constant Craving, even though she wasn't threatening any lawsuit.
Discussed in depth here only last year: [iorr.org]
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
Try to find the interview with Keith on this subject. It was a move by ABKCO.
I won't say that The Verve were sneaky or anything, but when you can't except your own "mistake" of having "crossed the line", you don't deserve any respect and that's how conclusions like "stealing" and "bad losers" surface. The best "revenge" for The Verve would have been to make an even bigger hit song.
If you can't beat'em, join'em!
I agree mostly with you, but one thing I don't understand: why do you say Brian Jones made it a hit? I thought the main riff was done by Keith?
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: May 27, 2018 23:00
You can see why Keith was attracted to Klein in the first place.
In interviews Keith (and Oldham) show complete disregard for Ashcroft/Verve.
Anybody who understands the case knows that The Verve got shafted. A fairer split of royalties and credit would have been a logical conclusion.
In interviews Keith (and Oldham) show complete disregard for Ashcroft/Verve.
Anybody who understands the case knows that The Verve got shafted. A fairer split of royalties and credit would have been a logical conclusion.
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: May 27, 2018 23:43
Quote
guitarbastard
it's a shame: the verve should have got at least 50% or more. it's a completely different song with a unique feel.
I agree.
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
ovalvox
()
Date: May 28, 2018 18:00
Quote
drbryant
Of course the Stones stole it in the first place, from the Staple Singers haunting rendition of “This May Be the Last Time.” The song is public domain so no infringement.
video: [m.youtube.com]
Amazing really. Keith stole it from the Staple Singers. Brian Jones made it a hit. Oldham stole it from the Stones and then Ashcroft made his version a hit. I'm starting to think that if anyone deserves a songwriting credit it was Jones and Ashcroft. Takes those two out of the mix and Jagger, Richards, Oldham and Klein would have earned zero dollars. Without Jones' guitar none of this would have been possible. No Stones hit. No Verve hit. No double royalties for for the others.
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
Nasty Habits
()
Date: May 28, 2018 18:25
Does a bear s@#t in the woods!
"I've got nasty habits I take tea at three"
"I've got nasty habits I take tea at three"
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: May 28, 2018 21:36
Quote
ovalvox
Amazing really. Keith stole it from the Staple Singers. Brian Jones made it a hit. Oldham stole it from the Stones and then Ashcroft made his version a hit. I'm starting to think that if anyone deserves a songwriting credit it was Jones and Ashcroft. Takes those two out of the mix and Jagger, Richards, Oldham and Klein would have earned zero dollars. Without Jones' guitar none of this would have been possible. No Stones hit. No Verve hit. No double royalties for for the others.
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
Paddy
()
Date: October 8, 2018 04:17
Quote
His MajestyQuote
rattler2004
This song, the Bittersweet Symphony, virtually disappeared as soon as the copyright infringement was filed.
Not in UK, it was played, usually in ace remix form, in indie clubs etc etc a lot in 1997 and in to 1998.
A huge song for me and my friends and just about anyone I know of similar age.
I remember seeing Oasis in Dublin around the time this was out, and in between the support band and them, the bittersweet symphony video was played on the big screens and everytime Ashcroft bumped into someone the whole crowd went “Ole”
That song is a soundtrack of those few months. I’m not a big fan of the song incidentally!
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
Send It To me
()
Date: October 8, 2018 04:24
The Stones ripped off The Last Time from an old gospel song, then a string section produced a line that sounded nothing like The Last Time, and Ashcroft was astute enough to hear it as marketable. If he'd just had a quartet record those notes, no one probably would ever have noticed (no good deed goes unpunished!). Mick and Keith should have given Ashcroft their money from that, for sure.
...perfect that it's a song about bitterness tho!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-08 04:29 by Send It To me.
...perfect that it's a song about bitterness tho!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-08 04:29 by Send It To me.
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: October 8, 2018 17:55
For me, the irony in this is that the much derided Allen Klein (and then ALO) both initiated the legal process which in turn benefited both Mick and Keith financially.
That has always been the paradox of their relationship with their former Manager. Both were attracted to his gung ho personality as distinct from the 'straights'of the period. But with it comes a risk: ultimately they are number one, their clients secondary. That's why none of Klein's clients ever re-signed with him.
Bill Wyman was the wise one, in this regard of course. But no-one listened to him.
That has always been the paradox of their relationship with their former Manager. Both were attracted to his gung ho personality as distinct from the 'straights'of the period. But with it comes a risk: ultimately they are number one, their clients secondary. That's why none of Klein's clients ever re-signed with him.
Bill Wyman was the wise one, in this regard of course. But no-one listened to him.
Bitter Sweet Symphony
Posted by:
MrTurner
()
Date: October 7, 2018 02:14
x
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-07 02:25 by MrTurner.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-07 02:25 by MrTurner.
OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: January 3, 2019 21:42
I never knew this, that stones received royalties on the Verve's Bitter Sweet Symphony.
But the stones stoled the Last Time from someone else. This has been going on since someone invented the 6 notes LOL.
Story below
[www.youtube.com]
But the stones stoled the Last Time from someone else. This has been going on since someone invented the 6 notes LOL.
Story below
[www.youtube.com]
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: January 4, 2019 22:33
The video confuses ethics with legalities. Something can be legal and unethical. Yes, the arranger of the orchestral "Last Time" should have been the person compensated by The Verve, but he had no legal claim to compensation. Is this a miscarriage of justice? Sure, but it is legal.
The video blogger is often ill-informed. For example, citing The Beach Boys borrowing from Chuck Berry in ignorance of the fact they were sued and lost their songwriting royalties the same as Richard Ashcroft did.
If you're going to sample, have lawyers who do a good job of securing the rights. At the end of the day, Ashcroft's great flaw is that the lawyers did a piss-poor job of representing their client. Ironically, it was Virgin's lawyers - the same folks representing the Stones at the time.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-04 22:34 by Rocky Dijon.
The video blogger is often ill-informed. For example, citing The Beach Boys borrowing from Chuck Berry in ignorance of the fact they were sued and lost their songwriting royalties the same as Richard Ashcroft did.
If you're going to sample, have lawyers who do a good job of securing the rights. At the end of the day, Ashcroft's great flaw is that the lawyers did a piss-poor job of representing their client. Ironically, it was Virgin's lawyers - the same folks representing the Stones at the time.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-04 22:34 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
snorton
()
Date: January 4, 2019 22:43
In a strange turn of events...didn't Ashcroft open for the stones?
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
georgie48
()
Date: January 4, 2019 22:46
Sorry, but The Rolling Stones didn't steal "The Last Time". There was this traditional song, dating back to the (sad) cotton field days, and the creator(s) of the song were/was unknown. Then a gospel group, called The Staple Singers, made a recording of it. When Mick and Keith were looking for ideas to write own songs they came across that song. They took a part of it and speeded it up. They added their own "stuff" to it and it became a very different song, which they registered as a J/R song. Those were the rules in those days. Nothing wrong there.
Andrew Oldham (and Mick) made an orchestrated version of The Last Time with a rather unique sound. The Verve asked ABKCO to use a small part as a "trailer" for a song they made. However, the "trailer" became the dominating part of the song, so it wasn't a trailer anymore. In other words, they didn't stick to the rules and consequently had to pay. Nothing to get excited about, it happens all the time. Just for fun, try to trace back Led Zeppelin's "Boogie for Stu" (hint: oh, my head)
Andrew Oldham (and Mick) made an orchestrated version of The Last Time with a rather unique sound. The Verve asked ABKCO to use a small part as a "trailer" for a song they made. However, the "trailer" became the dominating part of the song, so it wasn't a trailer anymore. In other words, they didn't stick to the rules and consequently had to pay. Nothing to get excited about, it happens all the time. Just for fun, try to trace back Led Zeppelin's "Boogie for Stu" (hint: oh, my head)
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Kurt
()
Date: January 4, 2019 22:50
Quote
snorton
In a strange turn of events...didn't Ashcroft open for the stones?
Yes he did!
Oh and he's really pissed at ABKCO these days too...
Richard Ashcroft "I'm Coming For My Money, Man"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-04 22:55 by Kurt.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: January 4, 2019 23:05
He compares the Stones to a mack truck and ABKCO to a bug. One wonders what he fancies himself? I suspect his David vs. Goliath story is not going to end well. Yes, I feel bad for him, but it was a fatal mistake on the part of the attorneys representing the artist.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
buttons67
()
Date: January 5, 2019 00:16
seems to love himself, his bands greatest riff and its not their own.
amazing the amount of younger artists who diss the stones.
they know nothing of the stones incredibly huge repertoire.
amazing the amount of younger artists who diss the stones.
they know nothing of the stones incredibly huge repertoire.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
DGA35
()
Date: January 5, 2019 01:30
Quote
OpenG
I never knew this, that stones received royalties on the Verve's Bitter Sweet Symphony.
But the stones stoled the Last Time from someone else. This has been going on since someone invented the 6 notes LOL.
Story below
[www.youtube.com]
I thought this was fairly common knowledge. It's been discussed a number of times on this board. As well, several Youtube videos discussing this.
What I thought was weird is when they gave kd lang a songwriting credit on Anybody Seen My Baby since it sounds like Constant Craving, even though she wasn't threatening any lawsuit.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Deltics
()
Date: January 5, 2019 01:36
Quote
DGA35Quote
OpenG
I never knew this, that stones received royalties on the Verve's Bitter Sweet Symphony.
But the stones stoled the Last Time from someone else. This has been going on since someone invented the 6 notes LOL.
Story below
[www.youtube.com]
I thought this was fairly common knowledge. It's been discussed a number of times on this board. As well, several Youtube videos discussing this.
What I thought was weird is when they gave kd lang a songwriting credit on Anybody Seen My Baby since it sounds like Constant Craving, even though she wasn't threatening any lawsuit.
Discussed in depth here only last year: [iorr.org]
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
pt99
()
Date: January 5, 2019 02:44
If the Stones were involved at all they are a worse disgrace than I thought when it comes to greed
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
georgie48
()
Date: January 5, 2019 10:04
Quote
potus43
If the Stones were involved at all they are a worse disgrace than I thought when it comes to greed
Try to find the interview with Keith on this subject. It was a move by ABKCO.
I won't say that The Verve were sneaky or anything, but when you can't except your own "mistake" of having "crossed the line", you don't deserve any respect and that's how conclusions like "stealing" and "bad losers" surface. The best "revenge" for The Verve would have been to make an even bigger hit song.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
terraplane
()
Date: January 5, 2019 10:57
Ashcroft is right. Lyrically it is what of the greatest rock songs ever written. Klein was a greedy scumbag.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Kurt
()
Date: January 5, 2019 15:21
Quote
terraplane
Ashcroft is right. Lyrically it is what of the greatest rock songs ever written. Klein was a greedy scumbag.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 5, 2019 16:16
Since it seems that the relationship between the Stones camp and Ashcroft is intact, it could be that behind closed doors the Stones themselves made matters right with Ashcroft. That is the one thing that had bothered me in the whole mess: that the Stones really didn't need that money, and that hit; and it could make a world of difference for much smaller artists. Who also are big fans.
And to be honest: was there anyone in this world who heard "Bittersweet", and went "Hey wait just one minute! That's 'The Last Time' by the Stones, God damnit!" Not until it became a legal matter did anyone even take notice.
Georgie48 says it was Klein or ABCKO though. The suits.
And to be honest: was there anyone in this world who heard "Bittersweet", and went "Hey wait just one minute! That's 'The Last Time' by the Stones, God damnit!" Not until it became a legal matter did anyone even take notice.
Georgie48 says it was Klein or ABCKO though. The suits.
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 5, 2019 18:12
Quote
Rocky Dijon
Ironically, it was Virgin's lawyers - the same folks representing the Stones at the time.
If you can't beat'em, join'em!
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
JumpingKentFlash
()
Date: January 5, 2019 18:29
The Stones has nothing to do with it. It was Klein. Ashcroft should have made sure he had his legal shit together. It’s more or less his own fault.
JumpingKentFlash
JumpingKentFlash
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: January 5, 2019 21:16
Richard Ashcroft - Bitter Sweet Symphony (Acoustic) – Live in San Francisco 5-10-2018.
Before Richard starts singing he goes into the last time and rags on Allen Klein
[www.youtube.com]
Before Richard starts singing he goes into the last time and rags on Allen Klein
[www.youtube.com]
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
Carnaby
()
Date: January 5, 2019 23:51
Re: OT: ABKCO Allen Klein - Did The Verve Steal BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY?
Posted by:
BluzDude
()
Date: January 7, 2019 08:21
Re: Did The Verve Steal Bitter Sweet Symphony?
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: January 7, 2019 10:59
Quote
ovalvoxQuote
drbryant
Of course the Stones stole it in the first place, from the Staple Singers haunting rendition of “This May Be the Last Time.” The song is public domain so no infringement.
video: [m.youtube.com]
Amazing really. Keith stole it from the Staple Singers. Brian Jones made it a hit. Oldham stole it from the Stones and then Ashcroft made his version a hit. I'm starting to think that if anyone deserves a songwriting credit it was Jones and Ashcroft. Takes those two out of the mix and Jagger, Richards, Oldham and Klein would have earned zero dollars. Without Jones' guitar none of this would have been possible. No Stones hit. No Verve hit. No double royalties for for the others.
I agree mostly with you, but one thing I don't understand: why do you say Brian Jones made it a hit? I thought the main riff was done by Keith?
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