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oldschool
I have read the only real difference between the 58 and 59 LP Historics, other than the size of the necks, is the figuring and flaming in the maple tops. The 58 tops are generally plain, or minimal flaming, while the 59's get the more figured tops.

About half of the 1958 RE production have figured tops, and still they are about half the price of 59RE.

Mathijs

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oldschool

You are correct visually, and in most cases quality wise, you can't really tell much of a difference between Japanese, Mexican and American made Fenders but there is a big difference at resale. Justified or not, American made guitars hold their resale value much better than foreign made.

I am not too sure -resale value of basically any Fender guitar is roughly 65% of new price, and all resale prices have been steady over the last 20 years or so.

Mathijs

Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.

Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?

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oldschool
Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.

Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?

Out of his own head. Enough said.

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oldschool
Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.

Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?

I am trading/selling guitars for 20 years. In the beginning mostly vintage, but now that market has dried considerably I trade anything interesting but focusing on guitars that I personally find good instruments. I buy them, keep them for a few months and then sell or trade.

In my experience in The Netherlands: Made in Mexico Fender that are new in the 800 euro range go for 475 to 525 euro. Japanese fetch a little more at around 650 second hand with new pricing of 950 euro (partially due to import taxes). American standard Fender guitars are new around 1700 and go for around 1050 euro second hand. Custom shops go for 2250 second hand at 3200 euro new.

Gibson RE7 and RE8 are at 2250 to 2500 second hand at 3500 to 4000 new, RE9 go for 3500 to 4000 at 5500 to 6000 new. Interesting here is that the higher prices Gibson is asking for new does not translate to the second hand market. The True Vintage specced guitars that go new for around 8500 still do not go higher than 4000 euro second hand. It seems the customer is not willing to pay more than 4000 euro for a second hand RE9.

Of course there are a lot of specialties, which can be priced totally different than above. For example, the Beano reissue is now fetching more in the second hand market than when new.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
I am trading/selling guitars for 20 years.

Mathijs

...and you know how to play a mean one, I can confirm... saw you sitting in with our very own IORR-band in Amsterdam last year, and you sounded Grrreat.

Just sayin’...

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Mathijs
Gibson's main problem is not so much the musical instrument business, even though that's reclining for years now and also hits other brands. The main problem is their decision to buy the Phillips Audio and Home entertainment business and start Gibson Innovations Business. That simply cost way too much, and was a failure from the start. The chapter 11 Bankruptcy will enable Gibson to get rid of this Audio business, and then restructure and refund the musical instrument business.

For the musical instrument business Gibson has to overcome one big hurdle, and that is to convince the customers that instruments made outside of the USA are of equal quality to USA made instruments. The simple fact is that 80% of a guitar's costs is labor, and labor is simply too expensive in the USA to remain such a big brand as Gibson. A Gibson Les Paul build in the USA costs $4000, whereas it would costs $1800 when build in Mexico and $1200 when build in Asia. Same materials, same craftsmanship.

Fender made that decision already in the mid-1980's, with introducing the Japanese and Mexican production line of instruments. They improved further, by making just about all bodies, necks and parts in Mexico, shipping them to the USA and then assemble the guitars and sell at a premium branded 'Made in the USA'.

Gibson never did that, they only have three lines: Expensive but fabulous quality USA custom shop, expensive but mediocre to horrible quality 'made in the USA' from Memphis, and the cheap line of Epiphone, which are in looks and quality too far removed from Gibson.

In my opinion the only way to survive is to move the Memphis production to outside the USA and market good quality instruments for a lower price. Keep the USA Custom Shop to serve the high end market, improve quality and looks of Epiphone.

And I agree: a killer was the introduction of Richlite -that really pushed a lot of the older Gibson fans with money to other brands like PRS. I am willing to pay $5000 for a ES-355, but only when it has a real Ebony fingerboard.

Mathijs

All of that . Spot on

Gibson have long lost sight of their core market.

Guitarists are a conservative breed and still aspire to own good authentic replicas of traditional classic models...but most can't afford them.

Unlike Fender, Gibson have never made the changes necessary to enable the production of good quality "classic" guitars that folks [who really want own a £5,000 reissue] can afford.

As Mathijs said, Fender have this cracked...but the penny has never really dropped with Gibson.

[We do have to concede however that it's much easier to build proper Fenders for sensible money than proper Gibsons .
Fender guitars were conceived with affordable materials & ease of manufacture in mind.
Gibsons on the other hand relied on traditional and expensive luthiery ]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-14 16:00 by Spud.

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Spud

[We do have to concede however that it's much easier to build proper Fenders for sensible money than proper Gibsons .
Fender guitars were conceived with affordable materials & ease of manufacture in mind.
Gibsons on the other hand relied on traditional and expensive luthiery ]

Well, yes, I agree. It's fairly easy to build a $500 Tele, while a decent LP will always cost a minimum of $1500 new. But -Gibson just never filled that gap, which is now being filled by companies line Tokai (love rock) and Maybach (Lester), and PRS.

Mathijs

I watched this last night and had to add it here:

[www.youtube.com]

This Is Spinal Tap - Nigel's Guitar Room

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Mathijs

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Spud

[We do have to concede however that it's much easier to build proper Fenders for sensible money than proper Gibsons .
Fender guitars were conceived with affordable materials & ease of manufacture in mind.
Gibsons on the other hand relied on traditional and expensive luthiery ]

Well, yes, I agree. It's fairly easy to build a $500 Tele, while a decent LP will always cost a minimum of $1500 new. But -Gibson just never filled that gap, which is now being filled by companies line Tokai (love rock) and Maybach (Lester), and PRS.

Mathijs

Yep, If I were in the market for an affordable LP as this time I'd likely go with a Japanese Tokai.

I've got a Japanese Tokai ES-120 335 clone that when I bought it compared very favourably with the Gibsons I also tried at the time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-15 15:19 by Spud.

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Mathijs

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oldschool
Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.

Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?

I am trading/selling guitars for 20 years. In the beginning mostly vintage, but now that market has dried considerably I trade anything interesting but focusing on guitars that I personally find good instruments. I buy them, keep them for a few months and then sell or trade.

In my experience in The Netherlands: Made in Mexico Fender that are new in the 800 euro range go for 475 to 525 euro. Japanese fetch a little more at around 650 second hand with new pricing of 950 euro (partially due to import taxes). American standard Fender guitars are new around 1700 and go for around 1050 euro second hand. Custom shops go for 2250 second hand at 3200 euro new.

Gibson RE7 and RE8 are at 2250 to 2500 second hand at 3500 to 4000 new, RE9 go for 3500 to 4000 at 5500 to 6000 new. Interesting here is that the higher prices Gibson is asking for new does not translate to the second hand market. The True Vintage specced guitars that go new for around 8500 still do not go higher than 4000 euro second hand. It seems the customer is not willing to pay more than 4000 euro for a second hand RE9.

Of course there are a lot of specialties, which can be priced totally different than above. For example, the Beano reissue is now fetching more in the second hand market than when new.

Mathijs

Fair enough as you have the experience but this has not seemed to be the case on eBay from my experience of watching auctions.

Well, some artist have made it big using Gibson guitars. Probably for free also. Couldn't they have showed some support and helped to save the good old mark? Many of them are tighter than Gibson ever was...

Since we were debating prices of vintage Gibson's and Fenders' I thought other guitar geeks might find this interesting.

Back in the 1970's and 80's there was an amazing Guitar store in Red Bank NJ called Guitar Trader. They used to mail out an advertising newsletter which also had interesting educational articles on guitars, pickups, etc.

In the late 70's you could buy a 1959 Les Paul for less than $4K US and a 50's vintage Strat for less than $2K. Of course you could buy a new car here for $4K so it is all relative I guess.

Here are pages from an old flyer showing the incredible prices back in the 1978. Sorry for the small print so hope you can read the pages.



Here are Fenders




If you bought a 1959 Gibson LP from them they would pay for you to fly to their store, pick you up at the airport in a limo, and take the cost of the flight off of the selling price of the guitar if you bought one. How can you beat that service! Also interesting in this flyer from 1982 is how the price of the vintage LP's doubled in price in a short 4 years but comapred to what they sell for now it is a steal. Wish I had the money back then.







Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-18 00:06 by oldschool.

Guitar Trader was also one of the first Guitar stores to work with Gibson on there own 1959 reissue. Here is and advertisement for it where they even offer to put in original 1950's PAF humbuckers while supplies last. They were about 2x the price of a regular LP standard at the time but an amazing deal if you got real PAF's





There were a number of guitar shops here in the US in the 80's working with Gibson on their own 1959 reissue LP's. Here is an excellent article on the subject

[www.vintageguitar.com]

Another interesting article on the history and how to identify a Guitar Trader model

[www.lespaulforum.com]

Here is the LP collection of the author who wrote the articles

[www.lespaulforum.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-17 23:02 by oldschool.

Oh gosh for the days when a good basic alder, ash, maple, rosewood, mahogany
were common. I wonder what the ol' tree farmer would have to say
about how to best preserve, re-stock, harvest fine guitar wood-trees.

I can really understand a professional needing; and going through, over time,
very many instruments; even dozens; but I guess I really resent the Collector
Mentality itself, when it's some ONE person taking HUNDREDS of great original guitars off any kind of market; or no 'marketplaces' other than ones
sure to increase the monetary value further; frequently not to play most, if any of them. Not everybody's Nigel Tufnel, tho we can dream.

So take 50 such collectors; and there are surely more;
i mean how many several thousands of guitars never really
with a remote chance of inspiring tomorrow's lovely bringers of music,
or the current ones.

I agree with posters who think this will ultimately be good for the company.
A VERY good chance, hopefully. that focusing more and most exclusively
on quality manufacture and materials.
Gosh, I had TWO 335's in the 70's and kept one for almost twenty years.
of course I'm still sad I had to sell it; but it was a blessing to have,
get to know; it's particular neck dynamics...the 'gibsonny' fine details
in the things and hardware....how that solid block surrounded by the f holes
really was such a brilliant design. Incredible jazz or rock instrument.
I've a vintage Fender I'm way happy with but would love a Gibson;
and have been sad to hear that they were cheaping out;
you sorta expect the Epiphone line to be a little more economic,
tho still, obviously, classic instruments people love...
...but to ever cheap-out the Gibson name; as Fender did with that '65
sale to CBS company....
....paranthetically, i guess even w motorcycles, speaking of loud roaring
ripping sounds, had Harley Davidson cheapen their own name with a similar
kind of corporate sale and change, I think back in the 80's....
....loyal Harley friends were speding five figurers on bikes with
inherent electric problems for awhile there; tho I mean no disrepct
at all to their last very many years of products; I think they are
way back to great...

"Gibson Guitars Will Exit Bankruptcy Under New Leadership, Henry Juszkiewicz is Out"

[www.metalsucks.net]

How much were the '63 Thunderbird II & IV Basses going for on that list??

Cheers,