For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Quote
oldschool
I have read the only real difference between the 58 and 59 LP Historics, other than the size of the necks, is the figuring and flaming in the maple tops. The 58 tops are generally plain, or minimal flaming, while the 59's get the more figured tops.
Quote
oldschool
You are correct visually, and in most cases quality wise, you can't really tell much of a difference between Japanese, Mexican and American made Fenders but there is a big difference at resale. Justified or not, American made guitars hold their resale value much better than foreign made.
Quote
oldschool
Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.
Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?
Quote
oldschool
Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.
Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?
Quote
Mathijs
I am trading/selling guitars for 20 years.
Mathijs
Quote
Mathijs
Gibson's main problem is not so much the musical instrument business, even though that's reclining for years now and also hits other brands. The main problem is their decision to buy the Phillips Audio and Home entertainment business and start Gibson Innovations Business. That simply cost way too much, and was a failure from the start. The chapter 11 Bankruptcy will enable Gibson to get rid of this Audio business, and then restructure and refund the musical instrument business.
For the musical instrument business Gibson has to overcome one big hurdle, and that is to convince the customers that instruments made outside of the USA are of equal quality to USA made instruments. The simple fact is that 80% of a guitar's costs is labor, and labor is simply too expensive in the USA to remain such a big brand as Gibson. A Gibson Les Paul build in the USA costs $4000, whereas it would costs $1800 when build in Mexico and $1200 when build in Asia. Same materials, same craftsmanship.
Fender made that decision already in the mid-1980's, with introducing the Japanese and Mexican production line of instruments. They improved further, by making just about all bodies, necks and parts in Mexico, shipping them to the USA and then assemble the guitars and sell at a premium branded 'Made in the USA'.
Gibson never did that, they only have three lines: Expensive but fabulous quality USA custom shop, expensive but mediocre to horrible quality 'made in the USA' from Memphis, and the cheap line of Epiphone, which are in looks and quality too far removed from Gibson.
In my opinion the only way to survive is to move the Memphis production to outside the USA and market good quality instruments for a lower price. Keep the USA Custom Shop to serve the high end market, improve quality and looks of Epiphone.
And I agree: a killer was the introduction of Richlite -that really pushed a lot of the older Gibson fans with money to other brands like PRS. I am willing to pay $5000 for a ES-355, but only when it has a real Ebony fingerboard.
Mathijs
Quote
Spud
[We do have to concede however that it's much easier to build proper Fenders for sensible money than proper Gibsons .
Fender guitars were conceived with affordable materials & ease of manufacture in mind.
Gibsons on the other hand relied on traditional and expensive luthiery ]
Quote
MathijsQuote
Spud
[We do have to concede however that it's much easier to build proper Fenders for sensible money than proper Gibsons .
Fender guitars were conceived with affordable materials & ease of manufacture in mind.
Gibsons on the other hand relied on traditional and expensive luthiery ]
Well, yes, I agree. It's fairly easy to build a $500 Tele, while a decent LP will always cost a minimum of $1500 new. But -Gibson just never filled that gap, which is now being filled by companies line Tokai (love rock) and Maybach (Lester), and PRS.
Mathijs
Quote
MathijsQuote
oldschool
Not saying you are wrong Mathijis as I am basing my comments on what I see on ebay which I check on a regular basis but I have my doubts that 50% of 58 historic are flame tops and all Fenders, regardless of where made, sell for 65% of retail when used as that does not seem to be the case on ebay.
Can you share where you are getting your numbers from?
I am trading/selling guitars for 20 years. In the beginning mostly vintage, but now that market has dried considerably I trade anything interesting but focusing on guitars that I personally find good instruments. I buy them, keep them for a few months and then sell or trade.
In my experience in The Netherlands: Made in Mexico Fender that are new in the 800 euro range go for 475 to 525 euro. Japanese fetch a little more at around 650 second hand with new pricing of 950 euro (partially due to import taxes). American standard Fender guitars are new around 1700 and go for around 1050 euro second hand. Custom shops go for 2250 second hand at 3200 euro new.
Gibson RE7 and RE8 are at 2250 to 2500 second hand at 3500 to 4000 new, RE9 go for 3500 to 4000 at 5500 to 6000 new. Interesting here is that the higher prices Gibson is asking for new does not translate to the second hand market. The True Vintage specced guitars that go new for around 8500 still do not go higher than 4000 euro second hand. It seems the customer is not willing to pay more than 4000 euro for a second hand RE9.
Of course there are a lot of specialties, which can be priced totally different than above. For example, the Beano reissue is now fetching more in the second hand market than when new.
Mathijs