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keithsman

---

Doxa

What goes for me 'rewriting history', yeah, I admit that's exactly what I do, since I find the history written so far based on too much on myths, prejudices, sometimes on pure bullshit and wish-talk

---

You certainly have a talent Doxa, i think you could convince me that black was white if i keep on reading your posts

Haha.. I actually don't try to convince anyone... just trying to think aloud, which is therapeutic as such... And fun... no need to agree with me, but it is nice if someone finds something novel or interesting in my posts. I just love discussion and differing opinions. And I 'guess' I am a bit obsessed with The Rolling Stones... And sometimes I just can't control myself, and I tend to be too profound in justifying my trivial 'points' - sorry about that... It probably doesn't always look like that but this all is tended to be fun..

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-07 23:42 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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keithsman

---

Doxa

What goes for me 'rewriting history', yeah, I admit that's exactly what I do, since I find the history written so far based on too much on myths, prejudices, sometimes on pure bullshit and wish-talk

---

You certainly have a talent Doxa, i think you could convince me that black was white if i keep on reading your posts

Haha.. I actually don't try to convince anyone... just trying to think aloud, which is therapeutic as such... And fun... no need to agree with me, but it is nice if someone finds something novel or interesting in my posts. I just love discussion and differing opinions. And I 'guess' I am a bit obsessed with The Rolling Stones... And sometimes I just can't control myself, and I tend to be too profound in justifying my trivial 'points' - sorry about that... It probably doesn't always look like that but this all is tended to be fun..

- Doxa

I feel really bad now Doxa , you are a really good guy, sorry about all my BS, you are brilliant really, i just get too defensive where keith is concerned.

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keithsman
[



I feel really bad now Doxa , you are a really good guy, sorry about all my BS, you are brilliant really, i just get too defensive where keith is concerned.

Oh no, no reason to feel bad... I also did some re-thinking, and came to conclusion that my post actually was a kind of 'freak show' as someone mentioned above. So I edited it out. Let's carry on, my Stones friend!

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-08 00:03 by Doxa.

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Monsoon Ragoon



Don't you really have no other problems? This forum turns into a freak-show, unfortunately.

Thanks still quoting me whole through. But please could you edit it out, like I did to my original post.

- Doxa

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Doxa

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keithsman
[



I feel really bad now Doxa , you are a really good guy, sorry about all my BS, you are brilliant really, i just get too defensive where keith is concerned.

Oh no, no reason to feel bad... I also did some re-thinking, and came to conclusion that my post actually was a kind of 'freak show' as someone mentioned above. So I edited it out. Let's carry on, my Stones friend!

- Doxa

Hey that's the spirit, friends again

When Mick or Keith stake a claim that a song is theirs instead of both of theirs, I don't see it as no collaboration occurred, just that one of them brought it to the studio as a fleshed out idea (these days, more likely a polished demo). The Jagger-Richards partnership still work and re-work ideas. That's how you get their imprint, their musical DNA all over the finished work.

"Beast of Burden" is Keith's tune and yet, the bridge is Mick's (at least lyrically). "Emotional Rescue" is Mick's tune, but Keith's reggae guitar stops it from being purely disco as much as his more prominent blues-based riff changes "Miss You."

Have a listen to the acoustic sessions in 1985 and see that DIRTY WORK starts off with Mick and Keith writing together in the midst of what everyone accepts as World War III because Keith said so in interviews. When that album was new, Keith bragged about his lead guitar riff on "Winning Ugly" claiming his peers (presumably Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton, but who knows?) were asking about it. That song is seen as a Mick song in the fan version of history. Who alleges they collaborate? The credits on the sleeve.

The storytelling isn't always as obvious as Muddy Waters painting the ceiling. Anyone who talks to the press tells a version of the truth. Not because they're liars, but for all sorts of reason. The facts are dull and not geared toward short little snippets that interest the public. Sometimes the facts are inconvenient and you don't want to disclose it because it would be damaging or hurtful. Sometimes you say damaging and hurtful things to the press that aren't the whole truth. People are complex. Celebrities even more so.

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Monsoon Ragoon
Does anybody know what's the difference between the "old" alternate version on the Not Guilty boots and the official take? Version I in the old Hoffmann Recording Index from 2003.

alternate mix :

left : phasing guitar (Keith) - piano
right : 2nd guitar - back-up vocals
center : bass - drums
slightly more on left : lead vocal (Keith) - saxophone

official LP mix :

center : phasing guitar - bass - saxophone - drums
center : vocal (Keith)
right : 2nd guitar - back-up vocals
left : piano


Only the mix is different.

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LiveAtHidepark

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Monsoon Ragoon
Does anybody know what's the difference between the "old" alternate version on the Not Guilty boots and the official take? Version I in the old Hoffmann Recording Index from 2003.

alternate mix :

left : phasing guitar (Keith) - piano
right : 2nd guitar - back-up vocals
center : bass - drums
slightly more on left : lead vocal (Keith) - saxophone

official LP mix :

center : phasing guitar - bass - saxophone - drums
center : vocal (Keith)
right : 2nd guitar - back-up vocals
left : piano


Only the mix is different.

Thanks. Now I know why Zentgraf doesn't list it.

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Rocky Dijon
When Mick or Keith stake a claim that a song is theirs instead of both of theirs, I don't see it as no collaboration occurred, just that one of them brought it to the studio as a fleshed out idea (these days, more likely a polished demo). The Jagger-Richards partnership still work and re-work ideas. That's how you get their imprint, their musical DNA all over the finished work.

"Beast of Burden" is Keith's tune and yet, the bridge is Mick's (at least lyrically). "Emotional Rescue" is Mick's tune, but Keith's reggae guitar stops it from being purely disco as much as his more prominent blues-based riff changes "Miss You."

Have a listen to the acoustic sessions in 1985 and see that DIRTY WORK starts off with Mick and Keith writing together in the midst of what everyone accepts as World War III because Keith said so in interviews. When that album was new, Keith bragged about his lead guitar riff on "Winning Ugly" claiming his peers (presumably Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton, but who knows?) were asking about it. That song is seen as a Mick song in the fan version of history. Who alleges they collaborate? The credits on the sleeve.

The storytelling isn't always as obvious as Muddy Waters painting the ceiling. Anyone who talks to the press tells a version of the truth. Not because they're liars, but for all sorts of reason. The facts are dull and not geared toward short little snippets that interest the public. Sometimes the facts are inconvenient and you don't want to disclose it because it would be damaging or hurtful. Sometimes you say damaging and hurtful things to the press that aren't the whole truth. People are complex. Celebrities even more so.

coherency....i love it...ty

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Rocky Dijon
When Mick or Keith stake a claim that a song is theirs instead of both of theirs, I don't see it as no collaboration occurred, just that one of them brought it to the studio as a fleshed out idea (these days, more likely a polished demo). The Jagger-Richards partnership still work and re-work ideas. That's how you get their imprint, their musical DNA all over the finished work.

"Beast of Burden" is Keith's tune and yet, the bridge is Mick's (at least lyrically). "Emotional Rescue" is Mick's tune, but Keith's reggae guitar stops it from being purely disco as much as his more prominent blues-based riff changes "Miss You."

Have a listen to the acoustic sessions in 1985 and see that DIRTY WORK starts off with Mick and Keith writing together in the midst of what everyone accepts as World War III because Keith said so in interviews. When that album was new, Keith bragged about his lead guitar riff on "Winning Ugly" claiming his peers (presumably Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton, but who knows?) were asking about it. That song is seen as a Mick song in the fan version of history. Who alleges they collaborate? The credits on the sleeve.

The storytelling isn't always as obvious as Muddy Waters painting the ceiling. Anyone who talks to the press tells a version of the truth. Not because they're liars, but for all sorts of reason. The facts are dull and not geared toward short little snippets that interest the public. Sometimes the facts are inconvenient and you don't want to disclose it because it would be damaging or hurtful. Sometimes you say damaging and hurtful things to the press that aren't the whole truth. People are complex. Celebrities even more so.

Actually my initial idea of Mick probably having something to do with in finishing the lyrics of "All About You" did stem from the very raw nature of the lyrics in this 'Alternate Version' and the fact of hearing Mick there. If Jagger was there just to do the back-up vocals in chorus, was he there to wait for Richards to finish up doing the lyrics - and as we can hear, there still was a rather much work to do. Knowing this guy's (Jagger) temper, I just find it rather dubious that he would just sit down and wait isolated until Keith had made the lyrics complete, so that he could stand up and do the backing vocals (as he has done, as you noted earlier, to many of Keith's 'solo' songs along the years).

That of the lyrics being pretty personal, and thereby Jagger couldn't have 'touched' them anyway at all, I think that assumption belittles the professionalism of these guys. The lyrics - which are rather vague anyhow, and even Richards is not that sure about who they are about, and he refers, as he typically does, to the feelings they represent - are 'just' lyrics, and if Mick was there to make some line to rhyme or not, or to suggest some suitable word, phrase or something, I don't think that's any big deal - or should take anything out of Keith's creativite contribution. That's what these guy do for living, and they are pretty good at it. Jagger hadn't any problem to sing "Had It With You", no matter if Richards was there, supposedly, projecting some ill feelings he had towards Jagger. After-all, all of these are 'just' songs, and Mick and Keith are damn good crafting and performing them together.

Anyway, it could be as well that what we hear there is just a sudden visit by Mick, and probably hearing what Keith was up to, throwing some occasional impromptu back up lines in the spirit of the moment, and after seeing the unfinished stage of affairs, Jagger would have just said 'okay, Keith, give me a call when you are ready, and I do the backing vocals then. Meanwhile, I go to bang Jerry. See you.' Or - perhaps to more true to the atmosphere of EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions - it would have been like: "Look Mick, here is my Smith&Wesson, why don't you just @#$%& off, and let me do my song alone, you @#$%&!".

- Doxa

That's what these guy do for living, and they are pretty good at it.


Yep!!! ...



ROCKMAN

Doxa, I'm reminded of "I Need You" where Keith is at the keyboard tossing off a guide vocal. Mick chimes in for the chorus and adds the occasional incongruous "I won't @#$%& you too much." I've long suspected that was part of the development into "I Love You Too Much" which I thought was called "I Can't Help It" for many years.

My point in the example was it was how they worked at least then. We're hearing another step after "vowel movements" as they toss around ideas and wait for the spark. I can't be positive of course, but I think it's just the creative process in the Pathe-Marconi/Compass Point/NYC days and nothing else. Does that mean there isn't an exchange of ideas? Not at all. My guess is the song is Keith's, but Mick did come along with his own "All About You" a few years on and called it "Secrets."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 06:12 by Rocky Dijon.

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Rocky Dijon
Doxa, I'm reminded of "I Need You" where Keith is at the keyboard tossing off a guide vocal. Mick chimes in for the chorus and adds the occasional incongruous "I won't @#$%& you too much." I've long suspected that was part of the development into "I Love You Too Much" which I thought was called "I Can't Help It" for many years.

My point in the example was it was how they worked at least then. We're hearing another step after "vowel movements" as they toss around ideas and wait for the spark. I can't be positive of course, but I think it's just the creative process in the Pathe-Marconi/Compass Point/NYC days and nothing else. Does that mean there isn't an exchange of ideas? Not at all. My guess is the song is Keith's, but Mick did come along with his own "All About You" a few years on and called it "Secrets."

Indeed. But what makes this tune in particular so special was that the rest of the band was so amazed when the song was finished.

We don't know, of course, but I suspect that Keith locked himself in with this one and made it personal. According to the rest of the band, he finished it by himself (Charlie's «How he made a song out of this, I'll never know» should tell us something).

Add the fact that Keith himself has said in interviews that the song is (partly) about Mick. It's not impossible that Mick has added parts to lines that were about himself, without knowing it, but I somehow doubt it

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DandelionPowderman



(Charlie's «How he made a song out of this, I'll never know» should tell us something).

It surely tells something, but I am not sure what that exactly is... If we listen the alternative version, the 'song' - something obscure for Charlie - is already there. What there is left for Keith - with or without Mick - is just work out the details of the lyrics. Charlie wasn't there (at least needed) any longer - his contribution to the track Bill called the 'Train Song' was already done. So I think what Charlie means by the miracle ('how he made a song out of this') refers to the phase between recording the backing track and this alternative version (the former transforming to the latter). Or it could be - though not changing anything from Charlie's point of view - that what we hear there is actually the 'miracle' taking place there at that very moment - the tape catching the 'genius' in the very process of creating the melody and main ideas for lyrics!

Anyway, it would be nice if our moderator would have the time and energy to remove this whole thread to Rene's Track Talks - this thread nicely adds to the discussion about this wonderful song.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 12:22 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman



(Charlie's «How he made a song out of this, I'll never know» should tell us something).

It surely tells something, but I am not sure what that exactly is... If we listen the alternative version, the 'song' - something obscure for Charlie - is already there. What there is left for Keith - with or without Mick - is just work out the details of the lyrics. Charlie wasn't there (at least needed) any longer - his contribution to the track Bill called the 'Train Song' was already done. So I think what Charlie means by the miracle ('how he made a song out of this') refers to the phase between recording the backing track and this alternative version (the former transforming to the latter). Or it could be - though not changing anything from Charlie's point of view - that what we hear there is actually the 'miracle' taking place there at that very moment - the tape catching the 'genius' in the very process of creating the melody and main ideas for lyrics!

Anyway, it would be nice if our moderator would have the time and energy to remove this whole thread to Rene's Track Talks - this thread nicely adds to the discussion about this wonderful song.

- Doxa

Yeah, it belongs in the track talk, I agree.

What I'm hearing, though, is Keith humming and trying out a few occasional words at a very early stage, with Mick chiming in here and there.

When Keith says that this song was personal, and the rest of the group sort of underlines that this is something he has worked on by himself, this leads me to believe that he finished this one on his own. Add his confirmation about the lyrical contents being (partly) about Mick, and the indications of things happening that way become even stronger, imo.

However, we don't know, and these guys are masters of building myths and mystique around stuff like this

There is another piece of the puzzle though: the actual words:

Well if you call this a life
Why must I spend mine with you?
If the show must go on
Let it go on without you

Get so sick and tired
Of hanging around with jerks like you

Mm, na-na-na-na

Who'll tell me those lies
And let me think they're true? Yeah
What am I to do?
You want it, I've got it too

Though the laughs may be cheap
That's just 'cause the joke's about you
I'm so sick and tired
Of hanging around with dogs like you

You're the first to get laid
Always the last bitch to get paid

Who'll tell me those lies
And let me think they're true? Yeah
I heard one or two
And they weren't about me, they weren't about her
They were all about you

Well I may miss you
But missing me just isn't you
I'm so sick and tired
Of hanging around dogs like...

Who'll tell me those lies
And let me think they're true?
I heard one or two
And they weren't about me, they weren't about her
They were all about you

All about you
I'm so sick and tired - sick and... sick and tired
What should I do?

You want, you want, you want, you want
You get, you get, you get, you get
So how come I'm still in love with you?

DOXA

---

Actually my initial idea of Mick probably having something to do with in finishing the lyrics of "All About You" did stem from the very raw nature of the lyrics in this 'Alternate Version' and the fact of hearing Mick there. If Jagger was there just to do the back-up vocals in chorus, was he there to wait for Richards to finish up doing the lyrics - and as we can hear, there still was a rather much work to do. Knowing this guy's (Jagger) temper, I just find it rather dubious that he would just sit down and wait isolated until Keith had made the lyrics complete, so that he could stand up and do the backing vocals (as he has done, as you noted earlier, to many of Keith's 'solo' songs along the years).

That of the lyrics being pretty personal, and thereby Jagger couldn't have 'touched' them anyway at all, I think that assumption belittles the professionalism of these guys. The lyrics - which are rather vague anyhow, and even Richards is not that sure about who they are about, and he refers, as he typically does, to the feelings they represent - are 'just' lyrics, and if Mick was there to make some line to rhyme or not, or to suggest some suitable word, phrase or something, I don't think that's any big deal - or should take anything out of Keith's creativite contribution. That's what these guy do for living, and they are pretty good at it. Jagger hadn't any problem to sing "Had It With You", no matter if Richards was there, supposedly, projecting some ill feelings he had towards Jagger. After-all, all of these are 'just' songs, and Mick and Keith are damn good crafting and performing them together.

Anyway, it could be as well that what we hear there is just a sudden visit by Mick, and probably hearing what Keith was up to, throwing some occasional impromptu back up lines in the spirit of the moment, and after seeing the unfinished stage of affairs, Jagger would have just said 'okay, Keith, give me a call when you are ready, and I do the backing vocals then. Meanwhile, I go to bang Jerry. See you.' Or - perhaps to more true to the atmosphere of EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions - it would have been like: "Look Mick, here is my Smith&Wesson, why don't you just @#$%& off, and let me do my song alone, you @#$%&!".

- Doxa[/quote]

---

I don't know Doxa there you go again, trying your hardest to squeeze Mick into the writing of this song.

I don't think this is a case of me taking Keith's side, i just think this is probably Keith's baby, All About You is Keith's.
It has Keithisms all over it, you never would here Mick use lines like "So sick and tired of hanging around with Jerks like you" or " You're the first to get blamed, always the last bitch to get paid" or "I may miss you but missing me just isn't you"
I mean this is clearly about Anita, Keith himself said he wrote it about Anita.

I don't understand why that's so hard to accept, i know you are only saying Mick probably helped out on some of the lyrics because he often does on other tracks that are thought to be Keith's , but why suggest that on this particular track.

Sleep Tonight is another gem that is personal to Keith, probably written about Patti, i mean Keith does come up with this standard of lyrics all over his solo albums too, its like saying he's not up to the task of writing on his own.
I don't think he needs Mick to hold his hand dear boy.

Sorry i don't want to offend you, but your post the one i highlighted above is the stuff of fiction, its turning Mick and Keith's lyrics and song writing into a novel.

Its really interesting to know what actually went on while making these albums and who did what, but sometimes the imagination takes over.

Say for instance Mick definitely wrote "Out Of Tears" this is a Mick song, i don't think Keith even likes it, what would be the point of me saying Keith was at the studio at the same time, Keith played on it, so i think that assumption Keith didn't lend a hand to some of the lyrics belittles the professionalism of these guys. This is just fiction talk along with the rest of that post.

If i was to just come along to iorr and think oh interesting , i wonder who wrote All About You ? so i read through the two or three pages on this thread and think, Mick co wrote this with Keith. Not so.

<I mean this is clearly about Anita, Keith himself said he wrote it about Anita.>

Anita AND Mick:

«That was the kind of mood I was in. ... I don't think I'd ever written a song before, apart maybe from 'All About You,' in which I realized I was actually singing about Mick».

More here



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 14:38 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman


Anita AND Mick:

«That was the kind of mood I was in. ... I don't think I'd ever written a song before, apart maybe from 'All About You,' in which I realized I was actually singing about Mick».

More here

Was he drunk when he said that

Whatever its still Keith's lyrics, unless Mick wrote lyrics putting himself down as a bitch and a dog saying that he will not miss himself as much as keith will, he's fed up with hanging around with himself and insists on getting paid first while getting laid

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keithsman

Quote
DandelionPowderman


Anita AND Mick:

«That was the kind of mood I was in. ... I don't think I'd ever written a song before, apart maybe from 'All About You,' in which I realized I was actually singing about Mick».

More here

Was he drunk when he said that

Whatever its still Keith's lyrics, unless Mick wrote lyrics putting himself down as a bitch and a dog saying that he will not miss himself as much as keith will, he's fed up with hanging around with himself and insists on getting paid first while getting laid

I bet he was pretty sober when he wrote this, Riffie. Lots of love and bitterness in these following lines:

«Well I may miss you
But missing me just isn't you
I'm so sick and tired
Of hanging around dogs like...»

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
keithsman

Quote
DandelionPowderman


Anita AND Mick:

«That was the kind of mood I was in. ... I don't think I'd ever written a song before, apart maybe from 'All About You,' in which I realized I was actually singing about Mick».

More here

Was he drunk when he said that

Whatever its still Keith's lyrics, unless Mick wrote lyrics putting himself down as a bitch and a dog saying that he will not miss himself as much as keith will, he's fed up with hanging around with himself and insists on getting paid first while getting laid

I bet he was pretty sober when he wrote this, Riffie. Lots of love and bitterness in these following lines:

«Well I may miss you
But missing me just isn't you
I'm so sick and tired
Of hanging around dogs like...»

No i mean was he drunk when he said he wrote it about Mick and Anita.
He has said its about Anita, it was at the end of their time together.
Could be about Micks short affair with Anita though, makes sense to spill it all out in that song and disguise that its about Mick as well.
I don't know about that though, this was 1980 many years after Mick slept with Anita.
I'm sure back then Keith loved Mick so it could be about him.
Interesting isn't it, what is not interesting is a certain someone saying Mick helped out with such a personal lyric.

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keithsman

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DandelionPowderman

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keithsman

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DandelionPowderman


Anita AND Mick:

«That was the kind of mood I was in. ... I don't think I'd ever written a song before, apart maybe from 'All About You,' in which I realized I was actually singing about Mick».

More here

Was he drunk when he said that

Whatever its still Keith's lyrics, unless Mick wrote lyrics putting himself down as a bitch and a dog saying that he will not miss himself as much as keith will, he's fed up with hanging around with himself and insists on getting paid first while getting laid

I bet he was pretty sober when he wrote this, Riffie. Lots of love and bitterness in these following lines:

«Well I may miss you
But missing me just isn't you
I'm so sick and tired
Of hanging around dogs like...»

No i mean was he drunk when he said he wrote it about Mick and Anita.
He has said its about Anita, it was at the end of their time together.
Could be about Micks short affair with Anita though, makes sense to spill it all out in that song and disguise that its about Mick as well.
I don't know about that though, this was 1980 many years after Mick slept with Anita.
I'm sure back then Keith loved Mick so it could be about him.
Interesting isn't it, what is not interesting is a certain someone saying Mick helped out with such a personal lyric.

It was about how Mick and Keith's relationship had developed by 1980 («I was clean, wanted to take on more of the load etc.»). In short, the build up to «WWIII» had started by 1980, and Keith wrote about it.

There are many quotes. One of them is from this 1985 interview (link in my post above), between shooting scenes for the One Hit-video + Wyman's book etc.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
keithsman

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
keithsman

Quote
DandelionPowderman


Anita AND Mick:

«That was the kind of mood I was in. ... I don't think I'd ever written a song before, apart maybe from 'All About You,' in which I realized I was actually singing about Mick».

More here

Was he drunk when he said that

Whatever its still Keith's lyrics, unless Mick wrote lyrics putting himself down as a bitch and a dog saying that he will not miss himself as much as keith will, he's fed up with hanging around with himself and insists on getting paid first while getting laid

I bet he was pretty sober when he wrote this, Riffie. Lots of love and bitterness in these following lines:

«Well I may miss you
But missing me just isn't you
I'm so sick and tired
Of hanging around dogs like...»

No i mean was he drunk when he said he wrote it about Mick and Anita.
He has said its about Anita, it was at the end of their time together.
Could be about Micks short affair with Anita though, makes sense to spill it all out in that song and disguise that its about Mick as well.
I don't know about that though, this was 1980 many years after Mick slept with Anita.
I'm sure back then Keith loved Mick so it could be about him.
Interesting isn't it, what is not interesting is a certain someone saying Mick helped out with such a personal lyric.

It was about how Mick and Keith's relationship had developed by 1980 («I was clean, wanted to take on more of the load etc.»). In short, the build up to «WWIII» had started by 1980, and Keith wrote about it.

There are many quotes. One of them is from this 1985 interview (link in my post above), between shooting scenes for the One Hit-video + Wyman's book etc.

I think when Keith says he was singing about Mick in All About You in the 85' interview he must have meant in a Freudian way, not literally, like the anger and frustration in him towards Jagger was coming out in his bitter sweet song about Anita. You can hear it when he's just filling in any words that come to his head on this Alt Version. He's writing in a subconscious way about his friend but disguising it ultimately in a song about Anita. Its bloody marvelous really, so deep.

Most of the lines in the lyrics are confusing if the song was about just Mick, so the song is probably about just Anita or Mick and Anita.

Keith is unlikely to refer to his male friend Mick as a bitch or a dog.

On the other hand its unlikely he would refer to his common law wife as a jerk.

I happen to think these lyrics are very personal to Keith, no way has Keith allowed Mick to lend a hand with these lyrics, not in a month of Sundays

Here's another perspective: the finished lyrics refer to the triangle of Keith, Anita, and Lil Wergilis. A few years on and something so personal and under the radar as Lil is no longer a convenient truth since Patti replaced her. Therefore, as Keith receives the most attention of his life (up to that point) with the release of TALK IS CHEAP, the story alters and it's now a precursor to "You Don't Move Me" and it's a Mick song. Consider, Mick had to be okay with the song coming out in 1980. Even someone allegedly with thick skin might have blanched if their allegedly estranged songwriting partner was taking cracks of that nature. Just speculation, of course...

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Rocky Dijon
Here's another perspective: the finished lyrics refer to the triangle of Keith, Anita, and Lil Wergilis. A few years on and something so personal and under the radar as Lil is no longer a convenient truth since Patti replaced her. Therefore, as Keith receives the most attention of his life (up to that point) with the release of TALK IS CHEAP, the story alters and it's now a precursor to "You Don't Move Me" and it's a Mick song. Consider, Mick had to be okay with the song coming out in 1980. Even someone allegedly with thick skin might have blanched if their allegedly estranged songwriting partner was taking cracks of that nature. Just speculation, of course...

Could be, of course, but Keith's statement was from 1985.

Lil Wergilis or Lilly Wenglass, btw, are they the same swedish woman? Wenglass has added Green to her last name now..

Good, good points here, gentlemen.

Dandie, I do think the circumstantial evidence you listed is indication that "All About You" was a pure Richards project with no any touch of Mick. Like I've been saying, this has been my interpretation as well - until that odd presence of Jagger - a sonical evidence - in that part of the process of writing the song occurred. That made my mind going: what a hell is Jagger even doing there - isn't this supposed to be a wholesome Richards deal? So that anomaly made me to build up theories in trying to make sense of Jagger's role there, backed up with Jagger/Richards partnership in general, which lead me to suggest that probably Mick might have something to do with the track. I don't need to repeat those arguments (and I don't have anything to add).

I don't think that conclusion is not more than a product of wild imagination or an educated guess than, say, you Dandie once concluded from the base of hearing Keith's voice in the back vox in the chorus of "Sway" that he might have a hand in writing that part. You remember that one? I do because that at the time sounded odd to my ears. Not probably that much any longer...

But but.. the good comments presented here by both of my opponents here - Dandie and Riffie - made me think further the EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions. What is noteworty is that Keith is known to use much time in finishing up the album and seemingly just by himself - it might be even a question even of months after the others, even Mick (that's at least what Jagger has claimed). I have always thought that included heavy mixing and probably adding some guitar parts, but it could be very well that finishing up "All About You" might be one of those things he put a lot of time and care. Some years ago I tried to translate a Jagger/Richards interview (made by Dougie Gordon to Finnish rock magazine SOUNDI) from Finnish to English from the time of releasing EMOTIONAL RESCUE. They talked there about those sessions (and some other interesting things as well - the tension between Mick and Keith was terrible; I am inteneded to 'publish' the whole shit here at IORR but I should first check the language, which is just boring... Could anyone help me there?). Anyway, here are some little relevant snippets (sorry the bad language, and probably some things are lost in translation from English to Finnish to English):

-----

So here I am and waiting [for Mick Jagger to arrive] and with all kind of things occurring to my mind, when enters a tallish, skinny, wasted figure with eyeglasses, jeans and a cowboy shoes on. He is standing in the doorway, trying to find something to lean on. A man who literally is stoned. Keith Richards.

Jerry [Hall] and one of Mick's personal assistants in the room are staring the sight with their mouths open. Keith supposed to be in Miami. Richards is moving around with the easiness of a five-months baby. He is totally out of it. Finally his hand reaches the volume button, and suddenly ”Where The Boys Go” attacks my nerve system with a full volume. A hard, excruciating chorus is pumping from a wall to wall – this is Keith's answer to rock and roll.

His cold staring hits finally me, who is uncomfortably crouching in the corner. He shakes my hand and crashes down next to me. Keith is mumbling, ”How can you have such a Scottish accent, being from Finland?” I explain as easily as possible my connection to Finland. He seems to get it.

”No interviews”, he says apologeticly. ”That's out of question”, he continues and shouts his accounts of EMOTIONAL RESCUE and for being a Rolling Stone.

For starters he manages in getting to the next chair. Balancing a glass of Jack Daniels in one hand, and a beer glass in the other, he is looking threatening as moving in along to ”She's So Cold”. Jagger's vocals are cutting the air like a knife a butter – this is Stones music you can dance to. Keith tries to convince me that this song is made by him particularly. ”The best song in the album”, he says with a confidence. All I can do is agree.

”This record is a continuum to SOME GIRLS, but it is much more optimistic. We were somehow more fragile in SOME GIRLS. Now we have much more self-confidence; we have gotten our arrogance back”.

Keith offers me a dash of Jack Daniels and manages to topple the whole drink all over me. Then he tries to clean the mess by his tissue, and spills his beer on the floor. He hardly notices it.

”Some tracks are already for some years old. There just weren't room for them in the records, or they didn't fit to the whole. They just occured to our mind, and are (now) given a new outfit. And what does it matter, when will you record some tune, if it's just good enough.”

I have always had a picture that Mick Jagger is more into recording new songs.

”In that case Mick is plain wrong! Look, the same old democratic rule still holds on in this band. I just take my Smith & Wesson out, and all the rest will agree with me. I've just spent four months last winter in a studio making this album. I was like a mole, a part of underworld.”

Keith lofts his hand like expressing a despair. ”Oh Jesus, I want to live according to my myth, that's why I am here. Listen to this; this album is incredible!”

-----


For Jagger, Keith's ”joke” about a revolver and democracy is funny and rather typical.

”That's a typical Richards joke. In this recording, I got my bit done and ready in January. I am not keen on details as Keith is, and as far as I'm concerned, we could have released the album already back then, but that wasn't good enough for Keith. In fact, during these months Keith used fingering the details, nothing in the recording actually changed. Keith just wants to mess in a studio – he wants to shine. He has always loved himself, and if asked, he would be the first to admit it. I would say the exact thing if he would be present now. He is a true poser. With the power of his imagination he lives the role of some kind of Western Mobster, even though in reality he is a very shy and introvert kind of type.”

What about Mick Jagger?

”I am an extrovert kind of type who tries not to be that and tries to control oneself. Keith, on the other hand, is an opposite, because he tries to be as straightforward as possible.”

- Doxa, a certain someone



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 16:57 by Doxa.

I remember a Keith interview , he said he and Steve Jordan were doing well on the album Talk Is Cheap but Steve thought another track was needed.
So keith says something to Jordan like what am i going to write about now ?
Steve comes back with "when in doubt write about Mick"
So that's when You Don't Move Me arrived.

One of Keith's finest tracks imho, much underestimated and talked about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 17:23 by keithsman.

Yeah, I remember you posting that excerpt, Doxa (and it is hilarious )

I pointed out the Sway-thing mostly because people claim Keith was missing in action on Sway, which is incorrect, of course. But I know that there are many songs where Mick and Keith weren't involved together in the writing process.

However, for this track in particular, I think we caught a glimpse of the song in its early stages, lyric-wise (Keith might have played the instrumental for Mick, and they decided to fool around a bit with it in the studio - together). My gut feeling says that Keith decided to continue on his own, finishing the lyrics, but who am I to know that?

The words in this song aren't really typical of Mick Jagger, though (small bits and pieces, «moods» and feelings gelled together, «tough» street talk) , but again I could be wrong (have been before, will be in the future..).

I got the same feeling you got, Doxa, when I listened to the Dirty Work outtakes. Mick wasn't supposed to be much involved in the writing process, and Mick and Keith were supposed to not be on talking terms. On «Broken Hearts For Me And You», we can hear them laugh and try out stuff together, much in the same vein as what went down here on All About You

PS: I believe only Keith and Ronnie are credited on backing vocals on All About You..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 17:10 by DandelionPowderman.

- Doxa, a certain someone

---

Now what ever made you think i was referring to you my friend


Thanks for that translated interview Doxa, i would love to hear the rest, Keith at his menacing best lol.

I had no idea it was Keith who used to finish off albums, am i right in thinking Keith has got lazy since those days and leaves the finishing to Mick, Don and the engineers.

I was a bit disappointed with Emotional Rescue when i first heard it, it was my third Stones album and i already owned Tattoo You, but after listening to it today i was surprised how good it was. Not as good as Some Girls or Tattoo You but not far off. Its less of a Rocker as an album, more subtle, perhaps this is down to keith ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 17:35 by keithsman.

I'm going a bit off topic now but i remember this instance at the end of the documentary made in Morocco showing the making of Continental drift.
Keith comes into the studio drunk with Ronnie, Keith's pissing off Sarah Dash in a drunken playful way and making a hell of a lot of noise , then he's seen on his own while Mick is still recording in the recording booth.

Keith is looking at Jagger in the most menacing way, almost mocking him, i don't know why this stands out in my memory but this was supposed to be when Mick and Keith had patched up their differences and were getting on.
I thought Keith looked really evil in this instance lol. Would love to have been able to give him a penny for his thoughts.

Can't seem to find the documentary anywhere online, if anyone has a link would appreciate it.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Here's another perspective: the finished lyrics refer to the triangle of Keith, Anita, and Lil Wergilis. A few years on and something so personal and under the radar as Lil is no longer a convenient truth since Patti replaced her. Therefore, as Keith receives the most attention of his life (up to that point) with the release of TALK IS CHEAP, the story alters and it's now a precursor to "You Don't Move Me" and it's a Mick song. Consider, Mick had to be okay with the song coming out in 1980. Even someone allegedly with thick skin might have blanched if their allegedly estranged songwriting partner was taking cracks of that nature. Just speculation, of course...

Spot on. I think.