hi...listening to some outtakes and alt takes tonight and vis-à-vis nothing I suddenly wondered whether anyone had ever speculated on, or outright suggested, the possibility of Gram Parsons having written or co-written "Dead Flowers."

I don't mean the old yarn that Keith or Mick were "inspired" by the anecdote that Gretchen had sent Gram flowers and by the time the flowers caught up to the traipsing-around Gram the flowers were dead. I just mean everything about the song. The lyrics, vibe, references, general sound.

Forgive me if this is an ancient hashed-out argument that I've missed or never paid attention to.

I'm not making a definitive statement that I think Gram wrote it. It's just ponder fodder that leapt to mind for some reason.

Also---of all the recordings that have surfaced from Nellcote, is there even a one that includes Gram? All the time he was on board there, Keith and him playing guitar and piano--Gram never made it down the basement? Not once? And was there never one cassette recording of whatever Gram and Keith were noodling around doing together? And not one person there remembers a note of anything they played and sang? I don't recall anyone reporting on that--maybe Greenfield did and I'm just not remembering?

Anyway...the main point of inquiry is about Gram Parsons' possible authorship or co-creation of "Dead Flowers."

Thoughts?

thanks & happy new year
-swiss




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-01-03 08:46 by swiss.

It was just pondered here the other day on a thread where someone was telling of being in a coffee shop and the person on stage had just sung DF, and then asked the audience who wrote it, and our IORR member replied The Stones.... and a argument discussion ensued between the two of them... or something like that. I looked but didn't quickly see/find which thread that story was in. I might have dreamed it.

TL/DR
Yes

it's in the Big Lebowski thread ..... BUT it's about Wild Horses



ROCKMAN

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Rockman
it's in the Big Lebowski thread ..... BUT it's about Wild Horses

ah so... thank you rockeeee... thought it was something like that... kind of

[iorr.org]

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mr_dja

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Hairball

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CousinC
By the way,- I love Townes' Dead flowers.One of the best.

A younger friend of a friend of mine named Daniel whose in his early 30's was at my studio a while back partying when the Stones version came on the radio, and he swore Townes' version of Dead Flowers was the original.
Daniel is a semi-pro musician himself in the same style as Townes - acoustic singer/songwriter stuff played at local coffe houses, etc. Little did he know he was talking with a semi-knowledgeable Stones fan, so I acted naive and innocent and placed a $20 wager with him that it was a Jagger/Richards original. All I had to do was walk ten feet over to my record collection for the evidence and the deal was done. Sometimes it pays to be a Stones fan, but in reality everybody won as the money went towards more beer.

That's a great story!

Off topic but Similar (not hijacking thread): Years ago I was in a local studio where I did many sessions. The owner put on some raw recordings of a project he was drumming on and said it was a bunch of originals that the guitar player had brought in. He cued "a fun one" up and as soon as the intro passed, I was singing along with the vocalist. I said, "um, that's not an original. It's by a band from Boston and was released in the 80's". When we sprang our knowledge on the guitar player, he instantly admitted that he hadn't written it and couldn't believe that someone actually knew the original. Funny thing is: prior to recording, he had contacted the original writer about obtaining the rights to record and release a new version. The original writer said to the effect of, "forget the royalties, I'll just sell you the publishing rights and you'll own the song yourself, if you'd like." That was the route they went. It became a running joke that, anytime I was in the room when they played it live, he'd make a big deal about introducing it as "the best song (he) ever bought" and then call me up to do background vocals as I was "the only person he knew who had been listening to the song longer than he had".

I love music and rare, obscure versions of songs.

(hijack out)

Peace,
Mr DJA

Yeah, I've only heard speculations about Gram's involvement in WH. However, after hearing the interview Cristiano posted a while ago - where Gram confirmed that he didn't have anything to do with the creation of that song - I haven't heard any further speculations.

Dead Flowers is a song Gram could have written, though. Absolutely his style, both musically and lyrically.

Anyway, thanks for the "old yarn" about who originally sent who the Dead Flowers. New to me at any rate and something I'd often wondered about.

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DandelionPowderman
Dead Flowers is a song Gram could have written, though. Absolutely his style, both musically and lyrically.

I agree, Dandy -- it had never occurred to me until last night listening to this version of "Dead Flowers" -- something about it struck me as being rather Gram-like.
video: [www.youtube.com]

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Green Lady
Anyway, thanks for the "old yarn" about who originally sent who the Dead Flowers. New to me at any rate and something I'd often wondered about.

hi GL! I just remember someone saying that, maybe as far back as college--will Google it and see whether it is a bona fide old yarn

-swiss

I hadn't heard the yarn about the dead flowers before, either, but sounds very plausible to me. I also agree that DF sounds like a song Gram at least could have written.

There's never been any suggestion anywhere I've ever read that Gram Parsons had anything to do with Dead Flowers. And anything regarding recording, same thing - he just hung out in the house.

Same thing regarding Wild Horses.

It's no different than people insisting that Johnny Winter had something to do with Silver Train.

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GasLightStreet
There's never been any suggestion anywhere I've ever read that Gram Parsons had anything to do with Dead Flowers. And anything regarding recording, same thing - he just hung out in the house.

I read a biography of Gram Parsons a few years ago. I don't remember the exact wording, but the author says that it's puzzling that there wasn't any collaboration, but that Richards seems to have kept his work related to the Stones strictly separate.

He also says that Parsons' drug use was so bad at that point that Richards took him aside and told him he was worried about him, so maybe Parsons just wasn't producing anything worthwhile.

Every Stones country song sounds like a parody, including DF. Gram was too sincere about his country influences to write or co-write this song, IMO.

I had a friend back in High school who was originally from Texas, and the only Stones songs he liked were their country tunes.
While he may have considered Faraway Eyes a parody, I doubt he felt that way about Dead Flowers - I certainly don't consider it a parody.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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blivet
...He also says that Parsons' drug use was so bad at that point that Richards took him aside and told him he was worried about him...

I would suggest, as a rule of thumb, that if Keith Richards (esp back then) pulls someone aside and says he is worried about their drug use, that someone might be doing too much drugs.

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blivet

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GasLightStreet
There's never been any suggestion anywhere I've ever read that Gram Parsons had anything to do with Dead Flowers. And anything regarding recording, same thing - he just hung out in the house.

I read a biography of Gram Parsons a few years ago. I don't remember the exact wording, but the author says that it's puzzling that there wasn't any collaboration, but that Richards seems to have kept his work related to the Stones strictly separate.

He also says that Parsons' drug use was so bad at that point that Richards took him aside and told him he was worried about him, so maybe Parsons just wasn't producing anything worthwhile.

Keith, based on statements, has always been about the Stones. So it makes sense that Parsons had zero to do with anything.

That drug part... it probably doesn't need to be said but if Keith Richards takes you aside... you're really doing it wrong.

And what about Dear Doctor, could he have been involved in that?

Don Was mentions in an interview, for the re-release of Exile and the bonus tracks, that he specifically searched for anything Parsons may have done with the Stones at Nellcote while going through the vault. But he couldn't find anything...

Leon Russell has a mention of Graham in connection to Wild horses here... says he does not believe its his song...

video: [www.youtube.com]

Nice cover though...

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Hairball
I had a friend back in High school who was originally from Texas, and the only Stones songs he liked were their country tunes.
While he may have considered Faraway Eyes a parody, I doubt he felt that way about Dead Flowers - I certainly don't consider it a parody.

It's more than a parody, it's the anti-"Okie from Muskogee." The narrator of the song is a junkie. The queen of the underground line isn't exactly traditional Nashville, either. The music part is sort of country, but it's also rock. Mick's drawl and the guitar make it sound country. The lyrics seem like Mick's style.

According to Greenfield's account of Nellcote, Jagger resented Parson's presence at the house. He was seen as a hanger-on, monopolising Keith's time and trying to weasel his way into the band's inner circle. I can't imagine Mick allowing Parsons anywhere near a recording session. Gram spent most of his time getting very wasted and fighting with his girlfriend. Anita finally got fed up and kicked him out.
.

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marianna

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Hairball
I had a friend back in High school who was originally from Texas, and the only Stones songs he liked were their country tunes.
While he may have considered Faraway Eyes a parody, I doubt he felt that way about Dead Flowers - I certainly don't consider it a parody.

It's more than a parody, it's the anti-"Okie from Muskogee." The narrator of the song is a junkie. The queen of the underground line isn't exactly traditional Nashville, either. The music part is sort of country, but it's also rock. Mick's drawl and the guitar make it sound country. The lyrics seem like Mick's style.

Okie from Muskogee is a parody:

"We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee
We don't take our trips on LSD
We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street
We like livin' right, and bein' free"

From Merle himself:
"We wrote it to be satirical originally. But then people latched on to it, and it really turned into this song
that looked into the mindset of people so opposite of who and where we were." - 1970

ps- I don't think Gram had anything to do with the writing of Dead Flowers.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-01-05 09:14 by Hairball.

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Hairball
I had a friend back in High school who was originally from Texas, and the only Stones songs he liked were their country tunes.
While he may have considered Faraway Eyes a parody, I doubt he felt that way about Dead Flowers - I certainly don't consider it a parody.

Pathetic ain't it, but the only country I like is what The Stones, Byrds, Burrito Brothers did 40+ years ago. And Gram was involved with all of them. Also Gram Parsons solo material and w Emmy Lou.

If you write some words that rhyme on a piece of paper that doesn't mean anything. Where are the chord changes? Where is the melody? Where is the hook?

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triceratops

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Hairball
I had a friend back in High school who was originally from Texas, and the only Stones songs he liked were their country tunes.
While he may have considered Faraway Eyes a parody, I doubt he felt that way about Dead Flowers - I certainly don't consider it a parody.

Pathetic ain't it, but the only country I like is what The Stones, Byrds, Burrito Brothers did 40+ years ago. And Gram was involved with all of them. Also Gram Parsons solo material and w Emmy Lou.

Not sure what's pathetic...that my redneck friend from Texas only liked country tunes from the Stones?
Being the country music fanatic/afficianado he was, I thought it was cool he liked anything from the Stones.
Or is it pathetic that you only like country music from the Stones, Byrds, Gram, etc.?

As for country music itself, there's a whole world of good stuff beyond what the Stones et al did 40+ years ago - and much of it far superior, but will admit most of the stuff I like is decades old.
See Hank Williams, George Jones, Buck Owens, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings among hundreds of others.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-01-06 20:06 by Hairball.

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Koen
And what about Dear Doctor, could he have been involved in that?

As involved as he was with Far Away Eyes.

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GasLightStreet

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Koen
And what about Dear Doctor, could he have been involved in that?

As involved as he was with Far Away Eyes.

lol as in Dear Doctor is the Stones country GP is least likely to have been involved with. I get your joke. Hey, did Gram give Keith the riff for Ventilator Blues? We know he "took Ry Cooder for all he could"

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triceratops

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GasLightStreet

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Koen
And what about Dear Doctor, could he have been involved in that?

As involved as he was with Far Away Eyes.

lol as in Dear Doctor is the Stones country GP is least likely to have been involved with. I get your joke. Hey, did Gram give Keith the riff for Ventilator Blues? We know he "took Ry Cooder for all he could"

Gram gave Keith the rolling lick for Shattered. I mean, it's so obvious.

Keith has had a fascination with cowboys and the American West going back to his childhood. Could something Gram or the Burritos did inspire him to write a country tune? Of course. I have never read anything that even hints at Gram and Keith collaborating on a song the Stones recorded.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-01-07 03:32 by MisterDDDD.

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Hairball

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triceratops

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Hairball
I had a friend back in High school who was originally from Texas, and the only Stones songs he liked were their country tunes.
While he may have considered Faraway Eyes a parody, I doubt he felt that way about Dead Flowers - I certainly don't consider it a parody.

Pathetic ain't it, but the only country I like is what The Stones, Byrds, Burrito Brothers did 40+ years ago. And Gram was involved with all of them. Also Gram Parsons solo material and w Emmy Lou.

Not sure what's pathetic...that my redneck friend from Texas only liked country tunes from the Stones?
Being the country music fanatic/afficianado he was, I thought it was cool he liked anything from the Stones.
Or is it pathetic that you only like country music from the Stones, Byrds, Gram, etc.?

As for country music itself, there's a whole world of good stuff beyond what the Stones et al did 40+ years ago - and much of it far superior, but will admit most of the stuff I like is decades old.
See Hank Williams, George Jones, Buck Owens, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings among hundreds of others.

And more recent, Chris Stapleton.

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marianna
Every Stones country song sounds like a parody, including DF. Gram was too sincere about his country influences to write or co-write this song, IMO.

Completely agree here.