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Still, 4 out of 10 songs had «professional help»..
I agree about Pump being superior to Get A Grip, but I've always preferred Permanent Vacation myself out of those three albums
It's about precedent. Motown singers, and guys like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, didn't write their own material, and it was never an issue.
The whole singer/songwriter thing became a big deal in the '60s...artists like the Beatles, the Stones, Dylan, etc. became famous as both performers and talented songwriters.
Aerosmith wrote great songs on their own for over a decade, so they established a precedent as a rock'n'roll band with real songwriting chops. To bring in professional hit makers later in their career smacks a bit of desperation.
Wasn't Willie a band member? I've heard he was kinda greedy songwriting-wise, too
On a serious note, I don't have any problems with hit doctors as long as the song is good.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-21 21:32 by DandelionPowderman.
Paul Stanley was pretty open in his bio, about how he sat down and wrote songs together with Child.
If I should guess, I'd say that Aerosmith presented their stuff and that the hit doctors took it from there.
cool
Could it also be possible that what you view as desperation could have been viewed by someone else as a savvy business decision?
Peace,
Mr DJA
In the case of Rag Doll, that's exactly what I remember. Wikipedia (grain of salt included) states: "The song's lyrics were primarily written by Tyler and Vallance, Perry originating the guitar riff, and Vallance writing the bass line. The song was originally titled "Rag Time" but John Kalodner did not like that, so Holly Knight was called in to help change that lyric. She suggested "Rag Doll", which was actually another title Tyler and Vallance had considered."
Peace,
Mr DJA
That's pretty much me as well. Especially where Aerosmith is concerned. I like both the classic as well as much of the "sober/comeback" material. Maybe they would be a good example of "the ends justify the means". I'm glad their career has continued, it's been to my benefit as well as many other of their fans.
Similarly to DPs comment above, I tend to end up in the camp of: "If I like the song, I'm not all that worried about it's origins". (Copyright theft would be the one exception to that stance).
Peace,
Mr DJA
Miller, not Oldham!
The key word here being "lameness.'' Good God what a horrible band they became.
They're referring to Steven's intonation in the choruses, I guess, but I don't agree, as these songs are different.
He did, but chose to do it on Goddess.
Marti didn't get the songwriting credits he hoped for, though
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-22 11:24 by DandelionPowderman.
I agree, it's that way Tyler sings the chorus that makes them the same to me. I'm sure you're right that if I'd really listen to them, they might be quite different, but for me, when these songs came out, I already stopped being very interested in hem. I loved Pump, but didn't care for these ballads, so I only heard them while zapping MTV or some other music channel, and I'd hear Tyler's voice "Aaaaaaazaaaayy" and I'd think: oh, right, another Aerosmith ballad.
Doing someone else's songs is doing covers.
Big difference.
They all have the same melody.
Cryin' has harmonica, too
Doesn't matter. A buddy and I, after that third single came out, were walking around and for whatever reason one of us started making fun of it by adding the other two songs into it. His reaction was "Jesus! They're all the same song!"
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: November 21, 2017 16:39
Interestingly, Aerosmith's Pump album had less contributions from outside songwriters than both its predecessor Permanent Vacation and its successor Get A Grip had -- while also having more creds to Whitford and Hamilton -- and guess what -- it's a better album too.
Their last album could have been more like that, had they dropped like half of the songs from it...
Their last album could have been more like that, had they dropped like half of the songs from it...
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 21, 2017 16:51
Quote
LieB
Interestingly, Aerosmith's Pump album had less contributions from outside songwriters than both its predecessor Permanent Vacation and its successor Get A Grip had -- while also having more creds to Whitford and Hamilton -- and guess what -- it's a better album too.
Their last album could have been more like that, had they dropped like half of the songs from it...
Still, 4 out of 10 songs had «professional help»..
I agree about Pump being superior to Get A Grip, but I've always preferred Permanent Vacation myself out of those three albums
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
Dan
()
Date: November 21, 2017 19:52
Get A Grip is really schizophrenic.
First cut was rejected, then it got major song doctoring.
First cut was rejected, then it got major song doctoring.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: November 21, 2017 19:58
Yeah, A&R guru John Kalodner played a huge role in making Aerosmith a hit-making machine again in the mid '80s.Quote
Dan
Geffen made a very large investment in resurrecting Aerosmith and they expected a return on that investment and that means they need hits with songs and more importantly music videos that appeal to much younger demographic.
Now the Stones have always appealed to young people but that's more the tongue log o and the strength of the older songs.
At least when Virgin signed them in 1991, they got the rights to reissue the older material. By 1994 when Voodoo Lounge came out, with a few exceptions the 1980's phenomenon of older acts having much bigger hits in the MTV era had mostly worn off. So hit doctors probably wouldn't have done much more for Voodoo Lounge and Bridges To Babylon.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: November 21, 2017 21:16
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: November 21, 2017 21:28
I think you can make a distinction between what you're bringing up above and what Aerosmith did.Quote
mr_dja
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
It's about precedent. Motown singers, and guys like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, didn't write their own material, and it was never an issue.
The whole singer/songwriter thing became a big deal in the '60s...artists like the Beatles, the Stones, Dylan, etc. became famous as both performers and talented songwriters.
Aerosmith wrote great songs on their own for over a decade, so they established a precedent as a rock'n'roll band with real songwriting chops. To bring in professional hit makers later in their career smacks a bit of desperation.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 21, 2017 21:31
Quote
mr_dja
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
Wasn't Willie a band member? I've heard he was kinda greedy songwriting-wise, too
On a serious note, I don't have any problems with hit doctors as long as the song is good.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-21 21:32 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriffhard4life
()
Date: November 21, 2017 21:35
whats never clear is were the songwriters fixing songs aerosmith was already writing or were they giving areosmith songs pretty much already written
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 21, 2017 21:43
Quote
keefriffhard4life
whats never clear is were the songwriters fixing songs aerosmith was already writing or were they giving areosmith songs pretty much already written
Paul Stanley was pretty open in his bio, about how he sat down and wrote songs together with Child.
If I should guess, I'd say that Aerosmith presented their stuff and that the hit doctors took it from there.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriffhard4life
()
Date: November 21, 2017 22:03
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
keefriffhard4life
whats never clear is were the songwriters fixing songs aerosmith was already writing or were they giving areosmith songs pretty much already written
Paul Stanley was pretty open in his bio, about how he sat down and wrote songs together with Child.
If I should guess, I'd say that Aerosmith presented their stuff and that the hit doctors took it from there.
cool
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: November 21, 2017 22:04
Quote
keefriff99I think you can make a distinction between what you're bringing up above and what Aerosmith did.Quote
mr_dja
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
It's about precedent. Motown singers, and guys like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, didn't write their own material, and it was never an issue.
The whole singer/songwriter thing became a big deal in the '60s...artists like the Beatles, the Stones, Dylan, etc. became famous as both performers and talented songwriters.
Aerosmith wrote great songs on their own for over a decade, so they established a precedent as a rock'n'roll band with real songwriting chops. To bring in professional hit makers later in their career smacks a bit of desperation.
Could it also be possible that what you view as desperation could have been viewed by someone else as a savvy business decision?
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: November 21, 2017 22:24
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
keefriffhard4life
whats never clear is were the songwriters fixing songs aerosmith was already writing or were they giving areosmith songs pretty much already written
Paul Stanley was pretty open in his bio, about how he sat down and wrote songs together with Child.
If I should guess, I'd say that Aerosmith presented their stuff and that the hit doctors took it from there.
In the case of Rag Doll, that's exactly what I remember. Wikipedia (grain of salt included) states: "The song's lyrics were primarily written by Tyler and Vallance, Perry originating the guitar riff, and Vallance writing the bass line. The song was originally titled "Rag Time" but John Kalodner did not like that, so Holly Knight was called in to help change that lyric. She suggested "Rag Doll", which was actually another title Tyler and Vallance had considered."
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 21, 2017 23:21
Thanks, D, didn't know that
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: November 21, 2017 23:50
Oh, it's certainly both. I'm not really begrudging the decision TOO much, as I like the albums a lot.Quote
mr_djaQuote
keefriff99I think you can make a distinction between what you're bringing up above and what Aerosmith did.Quote
mr_dja
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
It's about precedent. Motown singers, and guys like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, didn't write their own material, and it was never an issue.
The whole singer/songwriter thing became a big deal in the '60s...artists like the Beatles, the Stones, Dylan, etc. became famous as both performers and talented songwriters.
Aerosmith wrote great songs on their own for over a decade, so they established a precedent as a rock'n'roll band with real songwriting chops. To bring in professional hit makers later in their career smacks a bit of desperation.
Could it also be possible that what you view as desperation could have been viewed by someone else as a savvy business decision?
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: November 22, 2017 00:23
Heard both Rag Doll and Living on the Edge on the radio earlier today - both good songs but I do like the latter quite a bit better as Rag Doll seems a bit novelty-like imo.
And there was a brief snippet of an interview with Steven Tyler talking about the producer for Permanent Vacation (forget his name).
Tyler said he was hesitant to go with the guy as he had previously produced Bon Jovi, but they had a talk and the guy promised Tyler he wanted to bring out some of the golden era stylings of earlier Aerosmith in their heyday. Tyler said he was convinced and decided to take the gamble - ultimately very happy with the results and success of the album.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
And there was a brief snippet of an interview with Steven Tyler talking about the producer for Permanent Vacation (forget his name).
Tyler said he was hesitant to go with the guy as he had previously produced Bon Jovi, but they had a talk and the guy promised Tyler he wanted to bring out some of the golden era stylings of earlier Aerosmith in their heyday. Tyler said he was convinced and decided to take the gamble - ultimately very happy with the results and success of the album.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: November 22, 2017 00:27
Quote
keefriff99Oh, it's certainly both. I'm not really begrudging the decision TOO much, as I like the albums a lot.Quote
mr_djaQuote
keefriff99I think you can make a distinction between what you're bringing up above and what Aerosmith did.Quote
mr_dja
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
It's about precedent. Motown singers, and guys like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, didn't write their own material, and it was never an issue.
The whole singer/songwriter thing became a big deal in the '60s...artists like the Beatles, the Stones, Dylan, etc. became famous as both performers and talented songwriters.
Aerosmith wrote great songs on their own for over a decade, so they established a precedent as a rock'n'roll band with real songwriting chops. To bring in professional hit makers later in their career smacks a bit of desperation.
Could it also be possible that what you view as desperation could have been viewed by someone else as a savvy business decision?
That's pretty much me as well. Especially where Aerosmith is concerned. I like both the classic as well as much of the "sober/comeback" material. Maybe they would be a good example of "the ends justify the means". I'm glad their career has continued, it's been to my benefit as well as many other of their fans.
Similarly to DPs comment above, I tend to end up in the camp of: "If I like the song, I'm not all that worried about it's origins". (Copyright theft would be the one exception to that stance).
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: November 22, 2017 00:54
Quote
DandelionPowderman
So what did Andrew write on Dandelion, Carpet? What about Lady Jane? Midnight Rambler?
I think you over-estimate the producers a bit here, although they certainly came up with some good ideas on some songs.
Miller, not Oldham!
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
Chester
()
Date: November 22, 2017 03:57
Quote
matxilQuote
Send It To me
Reading Joe Perry's book now which is very good and I recommend. They began with Tyler/Perry on most song but in the 80's brought in outside songwriters to assist and were able to sell many millions of records on big hits late in their career from '87 to '01. Do you think Mick and Keith could/should have helped the Stones continue to have to hits by bringing in songwriting collaborators during the 80's and 90's? Did their ego as songwriters hold back the band? Or do you prefer the purity of Jagger/Richards? Heck, even Jagger/Richards/Woods was taken away - Ronnie probably could've helped. For what it's worth, I really like Steel Wheels, Voodoo, Bridges, and Bang, but in terms of reaching the non-hardcore fans in the wider world....
Interesting. That sort of explains why in the 90s the Aerosmith came out with a string of songs like "Amaaazing", "Craaaazy", "Cryyyying", all following the same lameness. I never knew that they used outside songwriters but it explains a lot.
I still liked their album "Pump" but everything that came after that was not very good and certainly way below their level in the 70s.
The key word here being "lameness.'' Good God what a horrible band they became.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriffhard4life
()
Date: November 22, 2017 06:22
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: November 22, 2017 07:39
I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 22, 2017 09:47
Quote
keefriff99I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
They're referring to Steven's intonation in the choruses, I guess, but I don't agree, as these songs are different.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
gotdablouse
()
Date: November 22, 2017 10:02
You gotta do what you gotta do...what was more painful to read in Perry's book was that Tyler refused to write songs with him and instead took off with one of the hit doctors whose name escapes me now (Marti Frederikson possibly) imagine Mick doing that to Keith...
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 22, 2017 10:18
Quote
gotdablouse
You gotta do what you gotta do...what was more painful to read in Perry's book was that Tyler refused to write songs with him and instead took off with one of the hit doctors whose name escapes me now (Marti Frederikson possibly) imagine Mick doing that to Keith...
He did, but chose to do it on Goddess.
Marti didn't get the songwriting credits he hoped for, though
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-22 11:24 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: November 22, 2017 11:20
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
keefriff99I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
They're referring to Steven's intonation in the choruses, I guess, but I don't agree, as these songs are different.
I agree, it's that way Tyler sings the chorus that makes them the same to me. I'm sure you're right that if I'd really listen to them, they might be quite different, but for me, when these songs came out, I already stopped being very interested in hem. I loved Pump, but didn't care for these ballads, so I only heard them while zapping MTV or some other music channel, and I'd hear Tyler's voice "Aaaaaaazaaaayy" and I'd think: oh, right, another Aerosmith ballad.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
gotdablouse
()
Date: November 22, 2017 13:35
That's the thing, have fun/try things on your solo albums but respect your partner/band (brand...) that's one thing the Stones have been good at
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 22, 2017 16:45
Quote
mr_dja
Of the people who are criticizing acts who use outside writers, how many disavow the majority of Motown's output? Are Muddy Water's "Hoochie Coochie Man" and "I Just Want to Make Love to You" illegitimate because they were written by Willie Dixon?
Peace,
Mr DJA
Doing someone else's songs is doing covers.
Big difference.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 22, 2017 16:47
Quote
keefriff99I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
They all have the same melody.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
keefriff99
()
Date: November 22, 2017 17:16
I guess, but Crylin' starts with heavy drums and electric guitar, Crazy has mandolin and harmonica, and Amazing has strings and piano. The choruses are all sung similarly, but other than that...Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
keefriff99I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
They all have the same melody.
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 22, 2017 17:22
Quote
keefriff99I guess, but Crylin' starts with heavy drums and electric guitar, Crazy has mandolin and harmonica, and Amazing has strings and piano. The choruses are all sung similarly, but other than that...Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
keefriff99I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
They all have the same melody.
Cryin' has harmonica, too
Re: Stones vs. Aerosmith re outside songwriters
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 22, 2017 17:55
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
keefriff99I guess, but Crylin' starts with heavy drums and electric guitar, Crazy has mandolin and harmonica, and Amazing has strings and piano. The choruses are all sung similarly, but other than that...Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
keefriff99I've seen people claim that...makes no sense to me. All three songs are unique in sound.Quote
keefriffhard4life
why do people think the 3 big ballads from get a grip sound the same? crazy is very mellow sounding compared to crying
They all have the same melody.
Cryin' has harmonica, too
Doesn't matter. A buddy and I, after that third single came out, were walking around and for whatever reason one of us started making fun of it by adding the other two songs into it. His reaction was "Jesus! They're all the same song!"
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