Patriotism is like saying my denomination is the best religion. People take pride in what they're happiest with. Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner had a great 2000 YEAR OLD MAN bit where Carl asks the Old Man if he remembers the first national anthem. The Old Man responds each cave had their own national anthem in the old days. Carl asks him if he remembers his and the Old Man proudly sings, "Let 'em all go to Hell except Cave 76!"

That's patriotism or human nature at any rate.

I am, however, veering off topic but it sort of connects.

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lem motlow
4 crazed meth heads smash into your house in the middle of the night with the intent of doing a Manson family like ritual on your wife and children.how many guns would you like? 0,1 ? How many rounds would you like to be able to shoot? 5?or 10?

Hmmm, I suppose I’d like at least a dozen human vaporizers built into the walls of each room in my house which I could immediately train on any invader via telepathic communication. Those crazed methheads wouldn’t know what hit ‘em, er, vaporized them...

But it’s a pretty sad world you Americans live in when your best solution is to arm yourselves to the hilt rather than addressing the issues underlying crime. Reduce the crime rate and you’ll be a helluva lot safer.

I imagine most Americans would agree with the above and would support initiatives to reduce poverty and raise the quality of education etc. etc. But when you point out that the quickest way to reduce crime would be to outlaw guns you encounter this enormous cultural divide between Americans and pretty much the rest of the world. The first argument put forth by the semi-rational types is that criminals will always find a way to procure guns on the black market or just use other weapons if guns were banned. So what happens when 4 crazed meth heads smash into your house and you’re armed with nothing but a tennis racquet? Well, I guess you die until you create a society where people don’t wanna use meth. That won’t happen overnight or in the next 3 years of Trump’s presidency of course but in the meantime less guns will mean fewer fatalities.

But it’s the other argument which the rest of the world find’s so asinine – the one about ‘our right to bear arms.’ Fear that if we couldn’t arm ourselves our government would suddenly strip us of our freedoms and turn us into cotton slaves or sell our organs to China or that we’d be fed to aliens like in that Twilight Zone episode. It’s not just the militant Heston types but I would say a majority of Americans seem to believe this. And I wanna tell you the rest of the world thinks you're whack-jobs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-06 07:41 by Swayed1967.

Generalize much?

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Swayed1967
But it’s a pretty sad world you Americans live in...

I imagine most Americans...

I would say a majority of Americans seem to believe this. And I wanna tell you the rest of the world thinks you're whack-jobs.

Interesting you imagine you can speak for the rest of the world. Try replacing the word "Americans" in the quotes above with any other groups of people (nations, races, orientation) and see if it still sounds reasonable when you read it back.

And yeah, I'm one of those anti-gun Americans who would love to have no guns in his country but can't imagine it happening because the money is on keeping the violent fantasies alive. Sometimes it's not the sentiment, but the way it's expressed that rubs people the wrong way.

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Swayed1967
But it’s a pretty sad world you Americans live in...

I imagine most Americans...

I would say a majority of Americans seem to believe this. And I wanna tell you the rest of the world thinks you're whack-jobs.

It is disappointing to read you (and other people like you) spouting your hatred towards the United States of America.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-06 11:36 by Leonioid.

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Rocky Dijon


Interesting you imagine you can speak for the rest of the world. Try replacing the word "Americans" in the quotes above with any other groups of people (nations, races, orientation) and see if it still sounds reasonable when you read it back.

Although I recognize this is a divisive issue among Americans, there is a general consensus in the international community regarding gun ownership in the US – ‘you folks is nuts.’ And I feel perfectly comfortable speaking for the rest of the world on this matter.

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Swayed1967

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lem motlow
4 crazed meth heads smash into your house in the middle of the night with the intent of doing a Manson family like ritual on your wife and children.how many guns would you like? 0,1 ? How many rounds would you like to be able to shoot? 5?or 10?

Hmmm, I suppose I’d like at least a dozen human vaporizers built into the walls of each room in my house which I could immediately train on any invader via telepathic communication. Those crazed methheads wouldn’t know what hit ‘em, er, vaporized them...

But it’s a pretty sad world you Americans live in when your best solution is to arm yourselves to the hilt rather than addressing the issues underlying crime. Reduce the crime rate and you’ll be a helluva lot safer.

I imagine most Americans would agree with the above and would support initiatives to reduce poverty and raise the quality of education etc. etc. But when you point out that the quickest way to reduce crime would be to outlaw guns you encounter this enormous cultural divide between Americans and pretty much the rest of the world. The first argument put forth by the semi-rational types is that criminals will always find a way to procure guns on the black market or just use other weapons if guns were banned. So what happens when 4 crazed meth heads smash into your house and you’re armed with nothing but a tennis racquet? Well, I guess you die until you create a society where people don’t wanna use meth. That won’t happen overnight or in the next 3 years of Trump’s presidency of course but in the meantime less guns will mean fewer fatalities.

But it’s the other argument which the rest of the world find’s so asinine – the one about ‘our right to bear arms.’ Fear that if we couldn’t arm ourselves our government would suddenly strip us of our freedoms and turn us into cotton slaves or sell our organs to China or that we’d be fed to aliens like in that Twilight Zone episode. It’s not just the militant Heston types but I would say a majority of Americans seem to believe this. And I wanna tell you the rest of the world thinks you're whack-jobs.

How do Americans take to Smoking laws?
In the UK there is a bit of bleating about 'taking away freedoms' but not that much.
A consequence of course (though not the only reason) is that people smoke less, these days.
About 10 years or so ago, after some gun massacre, Australia introduced some very stringent gun laws...as a result gun crime has dropped significantly.

It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

I agree with this, but at the same time it should be okay to point out that this weapon policy is unique and hard to understand for other countries.

I know, of course, that it's a huge simplification to say «americans» in this matter, as many americans don't support today's weapon policy at all.

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion. Being (genuinely) baffled by America’s insane gun policy does not equate to hatred of America or Americans...of course I can only speak for myself.

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

Slightly revisionist...and TOTALLY arrogant and disrespectful.
IF THE Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbor the US would probably still be sitting on their hands

Rod

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DandelionPowderman

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

I agree with this, but at the same time it should be okay to point out that this weapon policy is unique and hard to understand for other countries.

I know, of course, that it's a huge simplification to say «americans» in this matter, as many americans don't support today's weapon policy at all.

There is no way to reply without my words and feelings being twisted around...

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bitusa2012

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

Slightly revisionist...and TOTALLY arrogant and disrespectful.
IF THE Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbor the US would probably still be sitting on their hands

as I said... no way to post here without words and feelings being being twisted around.

and now back to the regularly scheduled spewing of hatred toward the United States...

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Swayed1967

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Rocky Dijon


Interesting you imagine you can speak for the rest of the world. Try replacing the word "Americans" in the quotes above with any other groups of people (nations, races, orientation) and see if it still sounds reasonable when you read it back.

Although I recognize this is a divisive issue among Americans, there is a general consensus in the international community regarding gun ownership in the US – ‘you folks is nuts.’ And I feel perfectly comfortable speaking for the rest of the world on this matter.

I certainly agree 100% with you.

I think we've got as much as we could get out of this discussion, and I think everyone has earned a pat on the back, for not turning this one into the usual war of words, but rather discussed this in a (mostly) civil way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-06 11:58 by DandelionPowderman.

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

It's sad to see how so many people don't know that the one and only reason WWII ended the way it did was because the monster H. was stupid enough to invade a country governed by monster S. Let two monster fight each other, each capable of sending millions to their death and who will win? The one who has a Russian winter on his side. It's frightening to realise that indeed this world would have looked quite differently, if it weren't for two cold winters in Russia.
In any case this is hugely off-topic, since although indeed the US has been involved in multiple wars (more often than not unjustified and hardly ever effectively) it has nothing with the common sense that having guns and automatic rifles readibly available for anyone who has enough money, even people known to have mental illness, is sheer madness. And the only reason this is still happening is not because of an amendment or because of some forefathers or some divine principle or the hypothetical case of methheads in your home (I assume a real society would have taken care of those methheads before) but the same answer as always: money.

I do beg forgiveness to Bjornulf for posting this, I have been trying to ignore this thread for the past days and I have tried to say things now as politely as possible, but in these terrible times, one sometimes feels saying one's opinion is important.

But I promise I won't post more in this thread, and will now go back to comparing Ronnie's bad solos to Keith's bad solos.

I'm with Dandelionpowderman. Nothing left but beating a dead horse as they say. There was a lot of great comments in this thread. And as an American I like knowing how the rest of the world thinks. Cheers.

Remembering the victims of the Las Vegas shooting: Here are their stories

[www.washingtonpost.com]

Not having taken part in this thread, I would like to comment that to me it was an utmost pleasure to read matxil's recent post.

(I will go on reading your regular non-OT posts, often with a more sceptical attitude, I have to say, as tastes may be different! )

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matxil

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Leonioid
It is disappointing how quickly people forget, lose appreciation and then start talking how much they hate the United States when it was actually not too long ago that without the United States (and it weapons and armies) Europe, the South Pacific and world maps would look very very different today.

Many Unites States Americans gave their lives fighting to take back the freedom lost in countries which instantly hung out the white flag and allowed themselves to be taken over by invading armies, countries which did not have enough weapons to defend themselves so they just surrendered.

It was only 60-80 years ago... but how soon people forget.

It's sad to see how so many people don't know that the one and only reason WWII ended the way it did was because the monster H. was stupid enough to invade a country governed by monster S. Let two monster fight each other, each capable of sending millions to their death and who will win? The one who has a Russian winter on his side. It's frightening to realise that indeed this world would have looked quite differently, if it weren't for two cold winters in Russia.
In any case this is hugely off-topic, since although indeed the US has been involved in multiple wars (more often than not unjustified and hardly ever effectively) it has nothing with the common sense that having guns and automatic rifles readibly available for anyone who has enough money, even people known to have mental illness, is sheer madness. And the only reason this is still happening is not because of an amendment or because of some forefathers or some divine principle or the hypothetical case of methheads in your home (I assume a real society would have taken care of those methheads before) but the same answer as always: money.

I do beg forgiveness to Bjornulf for posting this, I have been trying to ignore this thread for the past days and I have tried to say things now as politely as possible, but in these terrible times, one sometimes feels saying one's opinion is important.

But I promise I won't post more in this thread, and will now go back to comparing Ronnie's bad solos to Keith's bad solos.

As I said... how quickly people forget all of the United States fighting men who died on Normandy Beach and died in all of the other battles as they fought to help liberate Europe.

I wrote some other words/posts, but cut them before posting, there is no sense offering words only to have them twisted around.


Best advice to people who hate the United States and hate our laws is don't come here.

I'll just point out a reality disconnect. Some people are criticizing the United States for its gun policy and singling it out and saying that the rest of the world considers them to he "crazy." I suppose that you could call this the "forgetting" phenomenon. There are huge swaths of Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, and Asia where power literally comes from the barrel of a gun. There are militias and warlords and territories staked out with people that have sub-machine guns mounted on the backs of of pickup trucks. It's frightening, oppressive, and makes life an experience where low-level terror is always in the background and you never know if one day it will become active terror with people with guns and machetes that will come to your house and demand your money or your car or even your daughters. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of people live lives under the yoke of the barrel of a gun today as we speak. And America is the number one country when it comes to problems with guns and their consequences? I don't think so.

You can get into your car in America and starting on the East coast and drive all the way to the pacific ocean shoreline and never see someone brandishing a gun, never have to pass through a militia checkpoint, never have to pay a "tax" to some stranger brandishing a gun. Instead, you will see peace and prosperity and good will and people living their lives and raising their children in happiness.

Now, is America all good vibes and roses every day? The answer is no, but compared to many places in the world America is a paradise and people want to go there. The glass is way way more than half-full in America. The American Dream is still alive and well and people prosper in America and they make a positive difference every day.

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MisterDDDD
Remembering the victims of the Las Vegas shooting: Here are their stories

[www.washingtonpost.com]

I'm trying to find words and I can't. But these are someone else's words and I think they are fitting:

My favorite poet was Aeschylus. He wrote: "In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God."

What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black.
.
.
Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.

Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people.

- Robert Kennedy

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MileHigh
I'll just point out a reality disconnect. Some people are criticizing the United States for its gun policy and singling it out and saying that the rest of the world considers them to he "crazy." I suppose that you could call this the "forgetting" phenomenon. There are huge swaths of Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, and Asia where power literally comes from the barrel of a gun. There are militias and warlords and territories staked out with people that have sub-machine guns mounted on the backs of of pickup trucks. It's frightening, oppressive, and makes life an experience where low-level terror is always in the background and you never know if one day it will become active terror with people with guns and machetes that will come to your house and demand your money or your car or even your daughters. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of people live lives under the yoke of the barrel of a gun today as we speak. And America is the number one country when it comes to problems with guns and their consequences? I don't think so.

You can get into your car in America and starting on the East coast and drive all the way to the pacific ocean shoreline and never see someone brandishing a gun, never have to pass through a militia checkpoint, never have to pay a "tax" to some stranger brandishing a gun. Instead, you will see peace and prosperity and good will and people living their lives and raising their children in happiness.

Now, is America all good vibes and roses every day? The answer is no, but compared to many places in the world America is a paradise and people want to go there. The glass is way way more than half-full in America. The American Dream is still alive and well and people prosper in America and they make a positive difference every day.

Sweden plummets quickly towards that. No joke. Google Sweden, Mexico, deadly assaults.
Difference is we have a policeforce that is drained and useless. I'm not pro NRA or owning lots of weapons or anything, just saying there's a reason Swedes suddenly start to apply for licenses to carry weapons. We have a maximum capacity of 14 (yes fourteen) policemen on the streets in Stockholm.

Daily shootings and stabbings and regulary some riot in any the many no go zones. Daily burglaries, thefts, rape, assaults, sexual assaults, death threats, gangshootings etc. Again, no joke. I know of at least three in my neighborhood who never ever in their wildest dreams wouldve thought of owning a deadly weapon - who now feel they need one just to be able to defend themselves at the privacy of their homes or if they get carjacked, robbed or raped by a gang. Last night in Sweden indeed.