Tell Me :
Talk
From a fellow Scot, hear! Hear! The thought of a drink/drug crazed Ned with a gun doesn't bear thinking about. Glasgow, despite its high murder rate, paradoxically has a very low gun crime rate. Its problems stem mainly from knife crime. Were guns to be freely available, it could be horrendous. Thank goodness they aren't.
I am not a doctor, but a guy who do these sort of things is certainly NOT mentally in order. He is - or was - basically messed up in his mind. Any doctor who would say it is normal to kill so many people should find another job.
Bjornulf
Sounds like PC to me. If anything that was posted is not true then point that out.
I am not saying it's true or not.
Are you kidding here? Last night a reporter brought up that point and me and my wide were laughing about the absurdity of it. You are one of those hindsight people.
1- You are honestly blaming a guy for trying to get out of the way of bullets whizzing around him.
2- Nobody knew where the bullets were coming from so how would be know what to tell people to do?
3- Why would he assume that he would know better then anyone else about what to do?
4- How would he know that it was just not him that was shot at?
It almost seems like the media is trying to start a race war and using cop killing to start it off. They repeat lies and half truths to get the left worked out and the left falls for it everytime. And believe me I am far from a right winger.
Possibly you're right, but I've read nothing in at least the 20 or so articles I've read about the guns he had being illegal. Either way, if he got legal guns and did something to alter them to allow them to be automatic, it doesn't do much to sway my opinion. 'Guns' kill people, that's a fact. To those that say 'people kill people' that is right too, but usually they use guns (and they can sure kill a lot more people with guns).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 04:17 by LeonidP.
"Nevada has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country, a legislative condition that is sure to come under renewed scrutiny in the wake of the worst mass shooting in U.S. history on Sunday night in Las Vegas.
Nevada law does not require firearms owners to have licenses or register their weapons, nor does it limit the number of firearms an individual posses.
Automatic assault weapons and machine guns are also legal in the state as long as they are registered and possessed in adherence to federal law, according to the National Rifle Association.
Nevada does not prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50-caliber rifles or large-capacity ammunition magazines. Local law enforcement issues concealed handgun licenses. Open carry is legal without a permit.
Initial reports on social media appear to have shown that lone-wolf shooter Stephen Paddock used a high-caliber automatic weapon in the Las Vegas shooting. In shared footage of the attack, scores of rounds of ammunition can be heard going off in a matter of seconds.
Such weapons were previously prohibited under the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. Several lawmakers have attempted to renew the ban, coming closest, but still failing, after the Newtown school shooting in 2012."
[www.newsweek.com]
You're welcome.
People that claim to know a lot about guns should know this.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 04:39 by MisterDDDD.
And that's the heart of the problem. People can't seem to get their heads around the idea that an "amendment" by its very definition is NOT enshrined in anything.
It's an amendment: an alteration, moderation, or change from an earlier draft. Simple solution: change the change, like every civilized country in the world has figured out to do.
It's not the amendment that's can't be changed, it's the idiots who don't realize that the country kills 30,000 people a year because they can't fix an obvious mistake made in an era when it took over three minutes on average to load a musket with a single round and the idea of killing scores of people at concert would've made the drafters of the 2nd amendment never stop throwing up.
There used to be an amendment enshrined in the constitution that banned the sale of alcohol. The country somehow got it's shit together long enough to fix that ridiculous mistake. You'd think it could do something about America's own WMDs.
Americans killed on 9/11 and during the Iraq war, 2003-2011: <8,500.
Americans killed just last year from gun violence: >30,000
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 07:10 by camper88.
I can't resist playing devil's advocate on this one. Guns are clearly a double-edged sword, and so is alcohol:
Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.
Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years.1,2 Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years. The economic costs of excessive alcohol consumption in 2010 were estimated at $249 billion, or $2.05 a drink.
On this one I am just the messenger, don't shoot me.
a) You may be able to kill yourself but you can't kill scores of people with a keg of beer. (if you say you can if you're driving, then you're using a vehicle, not the alcohol to kill people). Cause of death is blunt force trauma, not alcohol poisoning.
b) Alcohol actually has a social value. Assault weapons have no human value.
c) There are actually laws about having ID to buy alcohol, while there are laws that make clear you don't need a ID to buy guns in certain venues.
d) The illegal market for alcohol makes prohibition a non-starter: you can make alcohol out of your socks if you wanted to, while making guns illegal has actually worked as a set of laws in every other civilized country on the planet--every one. Only in America do idiots say this couldn't have been stopped. While in other civilized countries they just pass laws and effectively end gun violence of the kind witnessed in Vegas.
You're comparing apple jack cider and hand grenades. One's a tasty beverage and the other's meant to kill things.
Let me try again-if you have a full auto machine gun type weapon in any of the fifty United States you will go to prison.now read my original post,I have it in quotes above.see where it says "rusty old pre- 86ers, a machine gun purchased before the law went into effect in 1986 is legal.those are the ones they let you shoot st the range.they are old and costly,up to 30,000 each.most are in the hands of collectors and you need to contact the atf before selling one.so let's be clear-full auto-prison
Paddock had a private plane he could've easily flown into the open air concert,that would've killed even more people.
The crime stats I mentioned in the inner cities came from an article in time magazine about the rising murder rates for the 2016 calendar year,I'll try to link it later.
& please remember that when I started the thread the intent was first to inform people what was going on. my first post was about 3 hours after the attack as I was watching the coverage & second to offer prayers etc to the people affected. there is horrific damage inflicted to a large number people that will take years to heal, if ever. & all most of the victims did was go out & try to enjoy a night a music. everyone here should be able to identify with that. personally, i hate guns & have for over 30 years. i was carjacked at gunpoint in hollywood after a concert in 1982 & it easily could've gone very badly. i joined everytown.org after sandy hook & after that there was another incident in Washington state that directly affected some people i care about. a mass shooting at a high school. the after effects are still lingering from that. my views are unpopular where i work but i don't really care about that. i wouldn't try & inflict my views on people here. thank you BV for letting this discussion happen. i think the discussion is appropriate as the massacre was at a music event. just happened to be country music. it could easily happen another kind of music event (& has). again, prayers to the people affected by this. let's hope us music lovers can support other music lovers in their time of distress.
You were not an issue, but there's no legal reason why your neighbourhood bully couldn't have owned a room full of guns just like your dad's. Or bullied you into letting him have access to your dad's collection (which is where I thought your story might have been going).
It's a trade off. How much of your freedom to own serious hardware are you willing to give up in order to make the spree-killer or terrorist's plans harder to carry out? You can't make everything 100% safe: recent UK terrorists used cars, knives and a home made bomb that fortunately didn't work, but if they could have bought semi automatic weapons freely they might have killed hundreds rather than dozens. You can't make the killer's job impossible, but you can make it difficult, and that will save lives.
I can see that in a country with much more dangerous wildlife than ours, and a hunting culture, a gun or two is a necessity in rural areas. Our farmers have their shotguns too. But in most places in Britain the police do not need to assume that anyone they deal with might suddenly pull a gun: if the police shoot someone it's rare, not routine. Accidents and suicides involving firearms are also unusual.
It took a long time to get here. I think it began after the first world war when the government was worried that left wing strikers and revolutionaries might use some of the weapons they had brought back from the trenches, and it's been gradually tightened up over the years. And it's the law abiding gun owners like your dad who are inconvenienced so that the criminals have a harder time of it. For a start, why does any ordinary citizen need to own one semi-automatic, let alone several?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 12:02 by Green Lady.
The gunman apparently used a legal "bump-stock" modification on his legal semi-automatic weapon.
MADD has issues with DRIVING drunk, not drinking. Don't confuse the two. They have issues with the illegal use of motor vehicles, not with alcohol consumption. Again the answer is simple: take the licenses away for good of folks who drive drunk. Other countries have figured this out.
And they would be right 0.00001% of the time. 99.9999% of the time these weapons have no social value. None.
Just look at other civilized societies that don't have tens of thousands of their civilians killed by gun deaths each year--more than any war or set of wars in which America's participated.
That's not a gray zone. That's a kill zone.
Freedom doesn't usurp "many negative aspects" when it comes to deaths of civilians at a scale that goes beyond the deaths of soldiers in the Civil War. Freedom to own a gun has to accede to the freedom of others to live without fear of dying on the streets in a hail of bullets.
So yeah, you're right about there being two sides, though.
There's life & there's death. Those are the sides that other civilized countries have chosen between. America's chosen death and people will just keep dying.
"Nevada has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country, a legislative condition that is sure to come under renewed scrutiny in the wake of the worst mass shooting in U.S. history on Sunday night in Las Vegas.
Nevada law does not require firearms owners to have licenses or register their weapons, nor does it limit the number of firearms an individual posses.
Automatic assault weapons and machine guns are also legal in the state as long as they are registered and possessed in adherence to federal law, according to the National Rifle Association.
Nevada does not prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50-caliber rifles or large-capacity ammunition magazines. Local law enforcement issues concealed handgun licenses. Open carry is legal without a permit.
Initial reports on social media appear to have shown that lone-wolf shooter Stephen Paddock used a high-caliber automatic weapon in the Las Vegas shooting. In shared footage of the attack, scores of rounds of ammunition can be heard going off in a matter of seconds.
Such weapons were previously prohibited under the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. Several lawmakers have attempted to renew the ban, coming closest, but still failing, after the Newtown school shooting in 2012."
[www.newsweek.com]
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Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: October 4, 2017 00:20
Quote
AquamarineObama after Sandy Hook. It told me that he genuinely cared about the whole incident and wanted to do something to effect change, even if he didn't ultimately succeed (which wasn't his fault).Quote
Redhotcarpet
Crying on national TV is not suitable for a president.
I'm not sure there was anything anyone could have done to have totally prevented the Las Vegas attack, however. But it could have been made much more difficult, and that's what we should be aiming for.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
Rollin' Stoner
()
Date: October 4, 2017 00:29
+1Quote
lem motlow
Look at the FBI stats on gun violence-Americas inner cities are an ongoing war zone.if you take away the gun murders from them the rest of the country is one of the safest on the planet.
State run media won't tell you that and mentally ill white guys fuel the headlines"crazy rednecks with guns,take em away"i cannot believe people still ger their information from television."make sure you get a camera shot of that blood on the concrete boys"
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
buttons67
()
Date: October 4, 2017 01:13
Bv makes a lot of sense in his statements, i live in scotland and we have people who are so screwed up and will cause violence at various points in their life mostly fulled by drugs and alcohol, but thankfully the vast majority of these people dont have guns, i would hate to think what would happen if they ever did.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
grzegorz67
()
Date: October 4, 2017 01:56
Quote
buttons67
Bv makes a lot of sense in his statements, i live in scotland and we have people who are so screwed up and will cause violence at various points in their life mostly fulled by drugs and alcohol, but thankfully the vast majority of these people dont have guns, i would hate to think what would happen if they ever did.
From a fellow Scot, hear! Hear! The thought of a drink/drug crazed Ned with a gun doesn't bear thinking about. Glasgow, despite its high murder rate, paradoxically has a very low gun crime rate. Its problems stem mainly from knife crime. Were guns to be freely available, it could be horrendous. Thank goodness they aren't.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: October 4, 2017 02:10
Quote
Kurt
I don't think you can simplify this incident with the label of "mental illness."
This shooter was well financed...
Hotel room in the perfect spot for multiple nights...
Tons of weapons and ammo...
More apparently at his home...
Plus chemicals...
AND he wired $100,000 to his girlfriend's family home overseas days before the killing.
More to come...I'm sure.
Brutal. @#$%& brutal.
I am not a doctor, but a guy who do these sort of things is certainly NOT mentally in order. He is - or was - basically messed up in his mind. Any doctor who would say it is normal to kill so many people should find another job.
Bjornulf
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
stanlove
()
Date: October 4, 2017 03:50
Quote
keefriff99Ah, there we go: blame the blacks. That's what you want to say, right?Quote
MileHighQuote
lem motlow
Look at the FBI stats on gun violence-Americas inner cities are an ongoing war zone.if you take away the gun murders from them the rest of the country is one of the safest on the planet.
State run media won't tell you that and mentally ill white guys fuel the headlines"crazy rednecks with guns,take em away"i cannot believe people still ger their information from television."make sure you get a camera shot of that blood on the concrete boys"
Yes, and there is a true reality disconnect out there in the media. One person calls it "the greatest lie of our generation." It's too hot an issue for here but I hope and pray that it gets resolved one day. This tragic incident should not be used as a vehicle for America bashing. Like I said before, watching the clips from within the crowd itself is devastating, and similar senseless and devastating things are happening every single day in America and although the press minimally reports it, and they are afraid to discuss the root causes.
Sounds like PC to me. If anything that was posted is not true then point that out.
I am not saying it's true or not.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
stanlove
()
Date: October 4, 2017 04:09
Quote
The Sicilian
I can't help but think of the brave musician being the first one running off the stage to safety while everyone below was in a firing squad. Maybe grab a mic and help people to exit.
s.
Are you kidding here? Last night a reporter brought up that point and me and my wide were laughing about the absurdity of it. You are one of those hindsight people.
1- You are honestly blaming a guy for trying to get out of the way of bullets whizzing around him.
2- Nobody knew where the bullets were coming from so how would be know what to tell people to do?
3- Why would he assume that he would know better then anyone else about what to do?
4- How would he know that it was just not him that was shot at?
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
stanlove
()
Date: October 4, 2017 04:11
Quote
MileHighQuote
lem motlow
Look at the FBI stats on gun violence-Americas inner cities are an ongoing war zone.if you take away the gun murders from them the rest of the country is one of the safest on the planet.
State run media won't tell you that and mentally ill white guys fuel the headlines"crazy rednecks with guns,take em away"i cannot believe people still ger their information from television."make sure you get a camera shot of that blood on the concrete boys"
Yes, and there is a true reality disconnect out there in the media. s.
It almost seems like the media is trying to start a race war and using cop killing to start it off. They repeat lies and half truths to get the left worked out and the left falls for it everytime. And believe me I am far from a right winger.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: October 4, 2017 04:16
Quote
lem motlow
....uh,no-
People who know nothing about guns think full automatics are legal in Nevada ....
Possibly you're right, but I've read nothing in at least the 20 or so articles I've read about the guns he had being illegal. Either way, if he got legal guns and did something to alter them to allow them to be automatic, it doesn't do much to sway my opinion. 'Guns' kill people, that's a fact. To those that say 'people kill people' that is right too, but usually they use guns (and they can sure kill a lot more people with guns).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 04:17 by LeonidP.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
virgil
()
Date: October 4, 2017 04:24
Quote
lem motlow
Look at the FBI stats on gun violence-Americas inner cities are an ongoing war zone.if you take away the gun murders from them the rest of the country is one of the safest on the planet.
State run media won't tell you that and mentally ill white guys fuel the headlines"crazy rednecks with guns,take em away"i cannot believe people still ger their information from television."make sure you get a camera shot of that blood on the concrete boys"
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: October 4, 2017 04:31
Quote
lem motlow
....uh,no-
People who know nothing about guns think full automatics are legal in Nevada ....
"Nevada has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country, a legislative condition that is sure to come under renewed scrutiny in the wake of the worst mass shooting in U.S. history on Sunday night in Las Vegas.
Nevada law does not require firearms owners to have licenses or register their weapons, nor does it limit the number of firearms an individual posses.
Automatic assault weapons and machine guns are also legal in the state as long as they are registered and possessed in adherence to federal law, according to the National Rifle Association.
Nevada does not prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50-caliber rifles or large-capacity ammunition magazines. Local law enforcement issues concealed handgun licenses. Open carry is legal without a permit.
Initial reports on social media appear to have shown that lone-wolf shooter Stephen Paddock used a high-caliber automatic weapon in the Las Vegas shooting. In shared footage of the attack, scores of rounds of ammunition can be heard going off in a matter of seconds.
Such weapons were previously prohibited under the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. Several lawmakers have attempted to renew the ban, coming closest, but still failing, after the Newtown school shooting in 2012."
[www.newsweek.com]
You're welcome.
People that claim to know a lot about guns should know this.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 04:39 by MisterDDDD.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
nellcote'71
()
Date: October 4, 2017 05:20
+1Quote
lem motlow
Look at the FBI stats on gun violence-Americas inner cities are an ongoing war zone.if you take away the gun murders from them the rest of the country is one of the safest on the planet.
State run media won't tell you that and mentally ill white guys fuel the headlines"crazy rednecks with guns,take em away"i cannot believe people still ger their information from television."make sure you get a camera shot of that blood on the concrete boys"
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
nellcote'71
()
Date: October 4, 2017 05:21
-1Quote
keefriff99Ah, there we go: blame the blacks. That's what you want to say, right?Quote
MileHighQuote
lem motlow
Look at the FBI stats on gun violence-Americas inner cities are an ongoing war zone.if you take away the gun murders from them the rest of the country is one of the safest on the planet.
State run media won't tell you that and mentally ill white guys fuel the headlines"crazy rednecks with guns,take em away"i cannot believe people still ger their information from television."make sure you get a camera shot of that blood on the concrete boys"
Yes, and there is a true reality disconnect out there in the media. One person calls it "the greatest lie of our generation." It's too hot an issue for here but I hope and pray that it gets resolved one day. This tragic incident should not be used as a vehicle for America bashing. Like I said before, watching the clips from within the crowd itself is devastating, and similar senseless and devastating things are happening every single day in America and although the press minimally reports it, and they are afraid to discuss the root causes.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
camper88
()
Date: October 4, 2017 07:00
Quote
keefriff99
The 2nd Amendment, as antiquated and misinterpreted as it is, is enshrined in our Constitution, and isn't going anywhere.
And that's the heart of the problem. People can't seem to get their heads around the idea that an "amendment" by its very definition is NOT enshrined in anything.
It's an amendment: an alteration, moderation, or change from an earlier draft. Simple solution: change the change, like every civilized country in the world has figured out to do.
It's not the amendment that's can't be changed, it's the idiots who don't realize that the country kills 30,000 people a year because they can't fix an obvious mistake made in an era when it took over three minutes on average to load a musket with a single round and the idea of killing scores of people at concert would've made the drafters of the 2nd amendment never stop throwing up.
There used to be an amendment enshrined in the constitution that banned the sale of alcohol. The country somehow got it's shit together long enough to fix that ridiculous mistake. You'd think it could do something about America's own WMDs.
Americans killed on 9/11 and during the Iraq war, 2003-2011: <8,500.
Americans killed just last year from gun violence: >30,000
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 07:10 by camper88.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: October 4, 2017 07:10
Quote
camper88Quote
keefriff99
The 2nd Amendment, as antiquated and misinterpreted as it is, is enshrined in our Constitution, and isn't going anywhere.
There used to be an amendment enshrined in the constitution that banned the sale of alcohol. The country somehow got it's shit together long enough to fix that ridiculous mistake. You'd think it could do something about America's own WMDs.
I can't resist playing devil's advocate on this one. Guns are clearly a double-edged sword, and so is alcohol:
Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.
Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years.1,2 Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years. The economic costs of excessive alcohol consumption in 2010 were estimated at $249 billion, or $2.05 a drink.
On this one I am just the messenger, don't shoot me.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
camper88
()
Date: October 4, 2017 07:20
Quote
MileHighQuote
camper88Quote
keefriff99
The 2nd Amendment, as antiquated and misinterpreted as it is, is enshrined in our Constitution, and isn't going anywhere.
There used to be an amendment enshrined in the constitution that banned the sale of alcohol. The country somehow got it's shit together long enough to fix that ridiculous mistake. You'd think it could do something about America's own WMDs.
I can't resist playing devil's advocate on this one. Guns are clearly a double-edged sword, and so is alcohol:
Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.
Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years.1,2 Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years. The economic costs of excessive alcohol consumption in 2010 were estimated at $249 billion, or $2.05 a drink.
On this one I am just the messenger, don't shoot me.
a) You may be able to kill yourself but you can't kill scores of people with a keg of beer. (if you say you can if you're driving, then you're using a vehicle, not the alcohol to kill people). Cause of death is blunt force trauma, not alcohol poisoning.
b) Alcohol actually has a social value. Assault weapons have no human value.
c) There are actually laws about having ID to buy alcohol, while there are laws that make clear you don't need a ID to buy guns in certain venues.
d) The illegal market for alcohol makes prohibition a non-starter: you can make alcohol out of your socks if you wanted to, while making guns illegal has actually worked as a set of laws in every other civilized country on the planet--every one. Only in America do idiots say this couldn't have been stopped. While in other civilized countries they just pass laws and effectively end gun violence of the kind witnessed in Vegas.
You're comparing apple jack cider and hand grenades. One's a tasty beverage and the other's meant to kill things.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: October 4, 2017 07:47
iQuote
lem motlow
That's interesting Kurt.somebody on this very site told me yesterday that it couldn't be compared to a regular terrorist attack because the guns are so "easily available " a guy like this could just be having a bad day and reek havoc.uh,no-
People who know nothing about guns think full automatics are legal in Nevada because of those rusty old pre-86ers the gun ranges let the tourists shoot full auto is a federal crime 5-10 years in prison for a first offense.this guy was nuts but well financed.maybe our first millionaire psycho killer.
Let me try again-if you have a full auto machine gun type weapon in any of the fifty United States you will go to prison.now read my original post,I have it in quotes above.see where it says "rusty old pre- 86ers, a machine gun purchased before the law went into effect in 1986 is legal.those are the ones they let you shoot st the range.they are old and costly,up to 30,000 each.most are in the hands of collectors and you need to contact the atf before selling one.so let's be clear-full auto-prison
Paddock had a private plane he could've easily flown into the open air concert,that would've killed even more people.
The crime stats I mentioned in the inner cities came from an article in time magazine about the rising murder rates for the 2016 calendar year,I'll try to link it later.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: October 4, 2017 07:53
Well for point a) organizations like Mothers Against Drunk Driving would take issue with you. For point b) gun advocates would argue that saving your family in a home invasion situation would have a social value.
I am not really taking one side or the other, I am just pointing out how many of these issues are grey areas and one fully polarized opinion is not necessarily "right."
With the amount of deaths and costs incurred by society from alcohol, your argument that prohibition was a "ridiculous mistake" is debatable. I am not arguing for prohibition at all, I am just pointing out that there are two sides to most societal issues. Do we want a nanny state? I think not and freedom usurps many negative aspects of a given societal issue. Should be ban video games because one in ten million kids will go nuts and kill somebody? The answer is no.
For many of these things it's impossible to find a perfect solution.
I am not really taking one side or the other, I am just pointing out how many of these issues are grey areas and one fully polarized opinion is not necessarily "right."
With the amount of deaths and costs incurred by society from alcohol, your argument that prohibition was a "ridiculous mistake" is debatable. I am not arguing for prohibition at all, I am just pointing out that there are two sides to most societal issues. Do we want a nanny state? I think not and freedom usurps many negative aspects of a given societal issue. Should be ban video games because one in ten million kids will go nuts and kill somebody? The answer is no.
For many of these things it's impossible to find a perfect solution.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: October 4, 2017 08:12
By the way,thanks BV for giving us a little leeway on this.i think even though people argue a bit it helps to talk about it.i die inside a little bit each time it happens in Europe and of course over here too.IORR,good people.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
Aquamarine
()
Date: October 4, 2017 09:57
So let me go back to this, and as someone who has no love for Jason Aldean--
5- What exactly was he supposed to do? Gather folks around and give them instructions, thus ensuring that they stood in the line of fire a little longer and so did he? Instructions to do what? There's nothing cowardly about getting out of the way when you're being shot at and can't help others, which he couldn't. Nobody knew what was going on.
Quote
stanloveQuote
The Sicilian
I can't help but think of the brave musician being the first one running off the stage to safety while everyone below was in a firing squad. Maybe grab a mic and help people to exit.
s.
Are you kidding here? Last night a reporter brought up that point and me and my wide were laughing about the absurdity of it. You are one of those hindsight people.
1- You are honestly blaming a guy for trying to get out of the way of bullets whizzing around him.
2- Nobody knew where the bullets were coming from so how would be know what to tell people to do?
3- Why would he assume that he would know better then anyone else about what to do?
4- How would he know that it was just not him that was shot at?
5- What exactly was he supposed to do? Gather folks around and give them instructions, thus ensuring that they stood in the line of fire a little longer and so did he? Instructions to do what? There's nothing cowardly about getting out of the way when you're being shot at and can't help others, which he couldn't. Nobody knew what was going on.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: October 4, 2017 09:59
I will keep this thread open as long as people talk with respect. So far we are doing fine. Thank you
Bjornulf
Bjornulf
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
crholmstrom
()
Date: October 4, 2017 10:35
Quote
bv
I will keep this thread open as long as people talk with respect. So far we are doing fine. Thank you
& please remember that when I started the thread the intent was first to inform people what was going on. my first post was about 3 hours after the attack as I was watching the coverage & second to offer prayers etc to the people affected. there is horrific damage inflicted to a large number people that will take years to heal, if ever. & all most of the victims did was go out & try to enjoy a night a music. everyone here should be able to identify with that. personally, i hate guns & have for over 30 years. i was carjacked at gunpoint in hollywood after a concert in 1982 & it easily could've gone very badly. i joined everytown.org after sandy hook & after that there was another incident in Washington state that directly affected some people i care about. a mass shooting at a high school. the after effects are still lingering from that. my views are unpopular where i work but i don't really care about that. i wouldn't try & inflict my views on people here. thank you BV for letting this discussion happen. i think the discussion is appropriate as the massacre was at a music event. just happened to be country music. it could easily happen another kind of music event (& has). again, prayers to the people affected by this. let's hope us music lovers can support other music lovers in their time of distress.Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: October 4, 2017 11:04
It's a bit crazy here -- I mean where I live, in the USA. Mostly it's the 24/7 bottom-feeder news/media culture, all corporate owned working everybody up, making us think we live in an abattoir just because of the actions of a few against the many.
You know, there's an album by Simon and Garfunkel (Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme), with a closing track called 7 O'Clock News/Silent Night, where a news report, in that year 1966, is read by a news caster (reader) I recognize, Tom Brokaw, I believe. In that broadcast, it talks of Richard Speck, who murdered nine nurses in one night, not with a gun but a knife. They were stabbed and strangled.
Why do I mention that? I suppose because it seems that the U.S. and the world seemed in a very precarious state at that time: [www.youtube.com]
I should also mention something. I grew up with guns. For many years of my youth (I was born in 1966) I lived in the U.S. state of New Hampshire (1967-1979), which is in the north of New England on the East Coast of the U.S. My father was a collector of guns. I owned a couple guns growing up, a .22 pistol and a .22 rifle. My father (who was born and raised in Canada) liked to hunt deer and pheasant. When he would come back from his multi-day hunting expeditions, we would have plates of venison for dinner.
I never accompanied him on these hunting outings, but we would go to the salt mines nearby and I would get to take target practice with my .22 pistol there. There was a rusty barrel embedded in the ground, and I was able to get a good shot near the center of the bottom of it where it jutted out of the ground, from quite a ways away -- he was quite proud that I was a good, natural shot with a pistol, and I was.
One year (1973; I was seven) we moved to another town in New Hampshire and I took up with a kid in the neighborhood my father didn't like. This kid's father had died early, and the kid was a bit of a bully, and a bit taller and stronger than me. My dad had a den, a room on the second floor of the house, all guns. Pistols, every kind you name it. Rifles, a double-barell shotgun, a replica of a Revolutionary War rifle, even an M-16. And, of course, I had my .22 pistol and rifle, with plenty of ammo if I needed it.
Anyway, this bad-news bully kid got a little out of hand, especially after my father left (my parents divorced in 1976), but there was still that room full of guns upstairs on the second floor.
Finally, to get rid of that kid, you know what happened? A kid down the street who was sympathetic to my plight helped me, taught me how I could fight and overpower that bully that I'd fallen in with, and that was that. For my remaining months in that town, in that neighborhood, after we had that final scrap, I never had to deal with that bully again.
And, you know, it just occurred to me -- there were all those guns in the house, I could have dealt with him so easily and so forcefully without the fight lessons from the helpful kid down the street.
But I never even once thought of it. Know why? Because the guns were never an issue.
Nor was I.
You know, there's an album by Simon and Garfunkel (Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme), with a closing track called 7 O'Clock News/Silent Night, where a news report, in that year 1966, is read by a news caster (reader) I recognize, Tom Brokaw, I believe. In that broadcast, it talks of Richard Speck, who murdered nine nurses in one night, not with a gun but a knife. They were stabbed and strangled.
Why do I mention that? I suppose because it seems that the U.S. and the world seemed in a very precarious state at that time: [www.youtube.com]
I should also mention something. I grew up with guns. For many years of my youth (I was born in 1966) I lived in the U.S. state of New Hampshire (1967-1979), which is in the north of New England on the East Coast of the U.S. My father was a collector of guns. I owned a couple guns growing up, a .22 pistol and a .22 rifle. My father (who was born and raised in Canada) liked to hunt deer and pheasant. When he would come back from his multi-day hunting expeditions, we would have plates of venison for dinner.
I never accompanied him on these hunting outings, but we would go to the salt mines nearby and I would get to take target practice with my .22 pistol there. There was a rusty barrel embedded in the ground, and I was able to get a good shot near the center of the bottom of it where it jutted out of the ground, from quite a ways away -- he was quite proud that I was a good, natural shot with a pistol, and I was.
One year (1973; I was seven) we moved to another town in New Hampshire and I took up with a kid in the neighborhood my father didn't like. This kid's father had died early, and the kid was a bit of a bully, and a bit taller and stronger than me. My dad had a den, a room on the second floor of the house, all guns. Pistols, every kind you name it. Rifles, a double-barell shotgun, a replica of a Revolutionary War rifle, even an M-16. And, of course, I had my .22 pistol and rifle, with plenty of ammo if I needed it.
Anyway, this bad-news bully kid got a little out of hand, especially after my father left (my parents divorced in 1976), but there was still that room full of guns upstairs on the second floor.
Finally, to get rid of that kid, you know what happened? A kid down the street who was sympathetic to my plight helped me, taught me how I could fight and overpower that bully that I'd fallen in with, and that was that. For my remaining months in that town, in that neighborhood, after we had that final scrap, I never had to deal with that bully again.
And, you know, it just occurred to me -- there were all those guns in the house, I could have dealt with him so easily and so forcefully without the fight lessons from the helpful kid down the street.
But I never even once thought of it. Know why? Because the guns were never an issue.
Nor was I.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: October 4, 2017 12:00
Quote
stonehearted
It's a bit crazy here -- I mean where I live, in the USA. Mostly it's the 24/7 bottom-feeder news/media culture, all corporate owned working everybody up, making us think we live in an abattoir just because of the actions of a few against the many.
You know, there's an album by Simon and Garfunkel (Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme), with a closing track called 7 O'Clock News/Silent Night, where a news report, in that year 1966, is read by a news caster (reader) I recognize, Tom Brokaw, I believe. In that broadcast, it talks of Richard Speck, who murdered nine nurses in one night, not with a gun but a knife. They were stabbed and strangled.
Why do I mention that? I suppose because it seems that the U.S. and the world seemed in a very precarious state at that time: [www.youtube.com]
I should also mention something. I grew up with guns. For many years of my youth (I was born in 1966) I lived in the U.S. state of New Hampshire (1967-1979), which is in the north of New England on the East Coast of the U.S. My father was a collector of guns. I owned a couple guns growing up, a .22 pistol and a .22 rifle. My father (who was born and raised in Canada) liked to hunt deer and pheasant. When he would come back from his multi-day hunting expeditions, we would have plates of venison for dinner.
I never accompanied him on these hunting outings, but we would go to the salt mines nearby and I would get to take target practice with my .22 pistol there. There was a rusty barrel embedded in the ground, and I was able to get a good shot near the center of the bottom of it where it jutted out of the ground, from quite a ways away -- he was quite proud that I was a good, natural shot with a pistol, and I was.
One year (1973; I was seven) we moved to another town in New Hampshire and I took up with a kid in the neighborhood my father didn't like. This kid's father had died early, and the kid was a bit of a bully, and a bit taller and stronger than me. My dad had a den, a room on the second floor of the house, all guns. Pistols, every kind you name it. Rifles, a double-barell shotgun, a replica of a Revolutionary War rifle, even an M-16. And, of course, I had my .22 pistol and rifle, with plenty of ammo if I needed it.
Anyway, this bad-news bully kid got a little out of hand, especially after my father left (my parents divorced in 1976), but there was still that room full of guns upstairs on the second floor.
Finally, to get rid of that kid, you know what happened? A kid down the street who was sympathetic to my plight helped me, taught me how I could fight and overpower that bully that I'd fallen in with, and that was that. For my remaining months in that town, in that neighborhood, after we had that final scrap, I never had to deal with that bully again.
And, you know, it just occurred to me -- there were all those guns in the house, I could have dealt with him so easily and so forcefully without the fight lessons from the helpful kid down the street.
But I never even once thought of it. Know why? Because the guns were never an issue.
Nor was I.
You were not an issue, but there's no legal reason why your neighbourhood bully couldn't have owned a room full of guns just like your dad's. Or bullied you into letting him have access to your dad's collection (which is where I thought your story might have been going).
It's a trade off. How much of your freedom to own serious hardware are you willing to give up in order to make the spree-killer or terrorist's plans harder to carry out? You can't make everything 100% safe: recent UK terrorists used cars, knives and a home made bomb that fortunately didn't work, but if they could have bought semi automatic weapons freely they might have killed hundreds rather than dozens. You can't make the killer's job impossible, but you can make it difficult, and that will save lives.
I can see that in a country with much more dangerous wildlife than ours, and a hunting culture, a gun or two is a necessity in rural areas. Our farmers have their shotguns too. But in most places in Britain the police do not need to assume that anyone they deal with might suddenly pull a gun: if the police shoot someone it's rare, not routine. Accidents and suicides involving firearms are also unusual.
It took a long time to get here. I think it began after the first world war when the government was worried that left wing strikers and revolutionaries might use some of the weapons they had brought back from the trenches, and it's been gradually tightened up over the years. And it's the law abiding gun owners like your dad who are inconvenienced so that the criminals have a harder time of it. For a start, why does any ordinary citizen need to own one semi-automatic, let alone several?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-04 12:02 by Green Lady.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
xke38
()
Date: October 4, 2017 12:20
Quote
rbkQuote
xke38
Tragic.
No doubt the NRA will come up with some other absurd argument in favour of gun proliferation though.
The gunman used an automatic weapon. A machine gun. They've been totally illegal in the US since 1934.
The gunman apparently used a legal "bump-stock" modification on his legal semi-automatic weapon.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: October 4, 2017 13:33
A thought I would like to share with the many good ones already. Wonder how many gun supporters would be able to pull the trigger if needed. Many people can talk big, but personally I think most would choak at the moment. This is not a bad thing either, it means you're human with compassion. So in the end there's a huge argument to preserve this right that won't be used. Well minus the criminals that are going to find a way regardless. I would rather focus on saving more practical rights that effect daily life. My two cents for what its worth.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
camper88
()
Date: October 4, 2017 13:38
Quote
MileHigh
Well for point a) organizations like Mothers Against Drunk Driving would take issue with you.
MADD has issues with DRIVING drunk, not drinking. Don't confuse the two. They have issues with the illegal use of motor vehicles, not with alcohol consumption. Again the answer is simple: take the licenses away for good of folks who drive drunk. Other countries have figured this out.
Quote
MileHigh
For point b) gun advocates would argue that saving your family in a home invasion situation would have a social value.
And they would be right 0.00001% of the time. 99.9999% of the time these weapons have no social value. None.
Quote
MileHigh
I am not really taking one side or the other, I am just pointing out how many of these issues are grey areas and one fully polarized opinion is not necessarily "right."
Just look at other civilized societies that don't have tens of thousands of their civilians killed by gun deaths each year--more than any war or set of wars in which America's participated.
That's not a gray zone. That's a kill zone.
Freedom doesn't usurp "many negative aspects" when it comes to deaths of civilians at a scale that goes beyond the deaths of soldiers in the Civil War. Freedom to own a gun has to accede to the freedom of others to live without fear of dying on the streets in a hail of bullets.
So yeah, you're right about there being two sides, though.
There's life & there's death. Those are the sides that other civilized countries have chosen between. America's chosen death and people will just keep dying.
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: October 4, 2017 14:37
Quote
rbk
The gunman used an automatic weapon. A machine gun. They've been totally illegal in the US since 1934.
"Nevada has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country, a legislative condition that is sure to come under renewed scrutiny in the wake of the worst mass shooting in U.S. history on Sunday night in Las Vegas.
Nevada law does not require firearms owners to have licenses or register their weapons, nor does it limit the number of firearms an individual posses.
Automatic assault weapons and machine guns are also legal in the state as long as they are registered and possessed in adherence to federal law, according to the National Rifle Association.
Nevada does not prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50-caliber rifles or large-capacity ammunition magazines. Local law enforcement issues concealed handgun licenses. Open carry is legal without a permit.
Initial reports on social media appear to have shown that lone-wolf shooter Stephen Paddock used a high-caliber automatic weapon in the Las Vegas shooting. In shared footage of the attack, scores of rounds of ammunition can be heard going off in a matter of seconds.
Such weapons were previously prohibited under the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. Several lawmakers have attempted to renew the ban, coming closest, but still failing, after the Newtown school shooting in 2012."
[www.newsweek.com]
Re: OT: Las Vegas concert shooting
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: October 4, 2017 14:57
Fully auto machine guns are legal in Vegas.
I am no gun enthusiast by any stretch, don't own one don't want one, but even I have shot a couple at a range there with buddies for "fun".
Better Laws can help prevent these tragedies. Laws that require more thorough background checks, laws that don't allow stock-pile purchases like this guy did, laws that require longer wait times while mental health issues are investigated, laws that do everything we can to help prevent gun violence without infringing on anyones rights.
The NRA and it's money own the politicians who recently rolled back laws that prevented mentally ill people from owning guns.Current legislation that would make silencers (more) readily available and legal was to be voted on (and likely passed) got postponed this week due to this tragedy. If this guy had silencers many more would likely be dead.
I'm all for the Second Amendment, but clearly there are limits. Common sense legislation is needed to help curb the gun violence. The NRA and it's bought politicians are complicit. Enough.
I am no gun enthusiast by any stretch, don't own one don't want one, but even I have shot a couple at a range there with buddies for "fun".
Better Laws can help prevent these tragedies. Laws that require more thorough background checks, laws that don't allow stock-pile purchases like this guy did, laws that require longer wait times while mental health issues are investigated, laws that do everything we can to help prevent gun violence without infringing on anyones rights.
The NRA and it's money own the politicians who recently rolled back laws that prevented mentally ill people from owning guns.Current legislation that would make silencers (more) readily available and legal was to be voted on (and likely passed) got postponed this week due to this tragedy. If this guy had silencers many more would likely be dead.
I'm all for the Second Amendment, but clearly there are limits. Common sense legislation is needed to help curb the gun violence. The NRA and it's bought politicians are complicit. Enough.
This Thread has been closed
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