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powerage78
DP, for you, is there any 2017 version of GS better than any in 1969 ?
Just a question.

No, but that's not the thing we're discussing here.

Pointing out that Keith plays bum notes is like saying in a baffled manner that the globe took another twist this year – it happens, and it's nothing new..

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Eleanor Rigby

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TheGreek

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OpenG
[www.youtube.com]

Keith was good on GS last night - He played the opening seductive splash of notes and chords and okay solo. He was on .

Wow, I was just blown away and run over by the Rolling Stones steam locomotive rolling down the tracks to the wonder and joy of Gimmie Shelter. Keith playing the intro like it's 1969 with the war raging in Vietnam ,with Jagger's most powerful written lyrics sung with such passion and he really is singing with such a voice dripping with so much emotion .Bravo Glimmer Twins !!!!!!!!!! I never for once thought they could not get it together and pull it off in such a grand style truly befitting the label of the Worlds Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World .Bravo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and to all the naysayers ,what do you say now ?

I say you are still deluded....
Whilst Keith showed us he can still have a presence on stage (dusseldorf show), his guitar work is still full of bum notes and errors - which is ok, but to hear people constantly say he is on fire is wrong..lets just say he was better than the first 2 shows of the tour and is probably playing as good as we will ever see him. His solos (dusseldorf show), whilst to the layman sound "great", to me there is no fluency or pattern to them - he is playing within his limits....and luckily in key (which can disguise his bum notes which are there!). It shows to me he does not practise at all as we dont hear anything different from him.
I am being critical however..

Deluded is right.

That's why I've been careful to not start gushing as soon as Keith got it together. Although I think he's actually playing better recently than you're giving him credit for, I wouldn't go much further than to rate it as "solid".

To start proclaiming that it's 1969 again...for Chrissake...

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DandelionPowderman


They found another way to improve it on Stripped, though. The best live version ever, imo. Keith with the real opening riff, and the overall sound is so powerful.

That's one of my favorite versions too...those acoustic guitars sound so monstrous.

OK (I breathe again )

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DandelionPowderman

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powerage78
DP, for you, is there any 2017 version of GS better than any in 1969 ?
Just a question.

No, but that's not the thing we're discussing here.

Pointing out that Keith plays bum notes is like saying in a baffled manner that the globe took another twist this year – it happens, and it's nothing new..

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

Quote
keefriff99

Quote
Eleanor Rigby

Quote
TheGreek

Quote
OpenG
[www.youtube.com]

Keith was good on GS last night - He played the opening seductive splash of notes and chords and okay solo. He was on .

Wow, I was just blown away and run over by the Rolling Stones steam locomotive rolling down the tracks to the wonder and joy of Gimmie Shelter. Keith playing the intro like it's 1969 with the war raging in Vietnam ,with Jagger's most powerful written lyrics sung with such passion and he really is singing with such a voice dripping with so much emotion .Bravo Glimmer Twins !!!!!!!!!! I never for once thought they could not get it together and pull it off in such a grand style truly befitting the label of the Worlds Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World .Bravo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and to all the naysayers ,what do you say now ?

I say you are still deluded....
Whilst Keith showed us he can still have a presence on stage (dusseldorf show), his guitar work is still full of bum notes and errors - which is ok, but to hear people constantly say he is on fire is wrong..lets just say he was better than the first 2 shows of the tour and is probably playing as good as we will ever see him. His solos (dusseldorf show), whilst to the layman sound "great", to me there is no fluency or pattern to them - he is playing within his limits....and luckily in key (which can disguise his bum notes which are there!). It shows to me he does not practise at all as we dont hear anything different from him.
I am being critical however..

Deluded is right.

That's why I've been careful to not start gushing as soon as Keith got it together. Although I think he's actually playing better recently than you're giving him credit for, I wouldn't go much further than to rate it as "solid".

To start proclaiming that it's 1969 again...for Chrissake...

I think Greek was conveying an emotion (which I agree with totally), that yesterday's GS took him back to some of the atmosphere those 1969-versions created.

There was something special with the Düsseldorf GS. The same was the case with GS in Hamburg. The first encore, and THOSE chords + the excitement.

In 1969 the song was disposable in the setlist. Now it is on the pedestal, where it belongs

Quote
Eleanor Rigby

Quote
TheGreek

Quote
OpenG
[www.youtube.com]

Keith was good on GS last night - He played the opening seductive splash of notes and chords and okay solo. He was on .

Wow, I was just blown away and run over by the Rolling Stones steam locomotive rolling down the tracks to the wonder and joy of Gimmie Shelter. Keith playing the intro like it's 1969 with the war raging in Vietnam ,with Jagger's most powerful written lyrics sung with such passion and he really is singing with such a voice dripping with so much emotion .Bravo Glimmer Twins !!!!!!!!!! I never for once thought they could not get it together and pull it off in such a grand style truly befitting the label of the Worlds Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World .Bravo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and to all the naysayers ,what do you say now ?

I say you are still deluded....
Whilst Keith showed us he can still have a presence on stage (dusseldorf show), his guitar work is still full of bum notes and errors - which is ok, but to hear people constantly say he is on fire is wrong..lets just say he was better than the first 2 shows of the tour and is probably playing as good as we will ever see him. His solos (dusseldorf show), whilst to the layman sound "great", to me there is no fluency or pattern to them - he is playing within his limits....and luckily in key (which can disguise his bum notes which are there!). It shows to me he does not practise at all as we dont hear anything different from him.
I am being critical however..

And im going to have to agree. It's not like Keith suddenly is fantastic. He's better but then he was having serious problems in the beginning. I think he has improved but c'mon.

Quote
Redhotcarpet

Quote
Eleanor Rigby

Quote
TheGreek

Quote
OpenG
[www.youtube.com]

Keith was good on GS last night - He played the opening seductive splash of notes and chords and okay solo. He was on .

Wow, I was just blown away and run over by the Rolling Stones steam locomotive rolling down the tracks to the wonder and joy of Gimmie Shelter. Keith playing the intro like it's 1969 with the war raging in Vietnam ,with Jagger's most powerful written lyrics sung with such passion and he really is singing with such a voice dripping with so much emotion .Bravo Glimmer Twins !!!!!!!!!! I never for once thought they could not get it together and pull it off in such a grand style truly befitting the label of the Worlds Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World .Bravo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and to all the naysayers ,what do you say now ?

I say you are still deluded....
Whilst Keith showed us he can still have a presence on stage (dusseldorf show), his guitar work is still full of bum notes and errors - which is ok, but to hear people constantly say he is on fire is wrong..lets just say he was better than the first 2 shows of the tour and is probably playing as good as we will ever see him. His solos (dusseldorf show), whilst to the layman sound "great", to me there is no fluency or pattern to them - he is playing within his limits....and luckily in key (which can disguise his bum notes which are there!). It shows to me he does not practise at all as we dont hear anything different from him.
I am being critical however..

And im going to have to agree. It's not like Keith suddenly is fantastic. He's better but then he was having serious problems in the beginning. I think he has improved but c'mon.

That's exactly my position.

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And Keith obviously played a lot better

He played basically the same part in SFM then as he does now, not much difference.

I don't think anyone's saying Keith is playing better than in 1969, but I was very impressed by his playing in Dusseldorf judging from the youtube videos I saw. The only mistakes I noticed was some out of key notes on SFTD, but Keith has always had some nerves during the first song it doesn't mean much. For instance here is Keith playing out of key notes during his solo on Satisfation in Prague 1998: video: [youtu.be]

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beachbreak

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And Keith obviously played a lot better

He played basically the same part in SFM then as he does now, not much difference.

The intro is better now, though.

Keith did play GS okay conjuring up the intro splash of notes and chords and that white voodoo graveyard vibe. The bum notes and wrong intro's now are part of his stage presence. As long as he gets the rhythm down with the band that is all I ask
now and not to play solos in the wrong key.

Everyone always says Jimmy Page played sloppy live taking his right hand off the fretboard and then going into a rapid fire guitar run that was all part of his stage presence. The times he played bad live was when he was on heroin.

Quote
keefriff99

Quote
Redhotcarpet

Quote
Eleanor Rigby

Quote
TheGreek

Quote
OpenG
[www.youtube.com]

Keith was good on GS last night - He played the opening seductive splash of notes and chords and okay solo. He was on .

Wow, I was just blown away and run over by the Rolling Stones steam locomotive rolling down the tracks to the wonder and joy of Gimmie Shelter. Keith playing the intro like it's 1969 with the war raging in Vietnam ,with Jagger's most powerful written lyrics sung with such passion and he really is singing with such a voice dripping with so much emotion .Bravo Glimmer Twins !!!!!!!!!! I never for once thought they could not get it together and pull it off in such a grand style truly befitting the label of the Worlds Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World .Bravo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and to all the naysayers ,what do you say now ?

I say you are still deluded....
Whilst Keith showed us he can still have a presence on stage (dusseldorf show), his guitar work is still full of bum notes and errors - which is ok, but to hear people constantly say he is on fire is wrong..lets just say he was better than the first 2 shows of the tour and is probably playing as good as we will ever see him. His solos (dusseldorf show), whilst to the layman sound "great", to me there is no fluency or pattern to them - he is playing within his limits....and luckily in key (which can disguise his bum notes which are there!). It shows to me he does not practise at all as we dont hear anything different from him.
I am being critical however..

And im going to have to agree. It's not like Keith suddenly is fantastic. He's better but then he was having serious problems in the beginning. I think he has improved but c'mon.

That's exactly my position.

I'd hesitate to call anyone delusional - maybe wearing rose tinted glasses would be more appropriate here, but I'd agree with most of this as well.
But if we were able erase all memory of the original studio version and 99.999% of all live performances from their entire history up to a month ago, I would say it's pretty damn good....and even fantastic.
Given their age, it's miraculous they're still a working unit doing live shows in front of thousands of people - it's a sight to behold (give or take a few screw-ups) and in the context of today and without comparing to anything from the past, it really is fantastic imo. BUT..since it's impossible to erase history and the facts as we know them, it's really hard for me to say that some of these current performances rise anywhere above average at best.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Hairball, I was prepared to praise your positive mood, even it's temporary, but your last phrase prevented me doing that and having such a huge pleasure... Are these current performances "average at best"? Come on...

Something that baffles me to this day.

Agreed that GS was special in Dusseldorf , but then that begs the question what are Keith and Ronnie doing with it the rest of the time.

They know how to, and are capable, (especially Ronnie ) of playing something comparable to 69'.

So what of the mess those other nights.

I'm not complaining with those other nights, but i'm curious as to what happens one night when Ronnie must say to himself >''Right I'm Going to play it well tonight''< and low and behold Keith decided to do the exactly the same thing on the same night.

And then tommorow night it might turn into a mess again

Hehe gotta love em though, we can't open them up to see what makes them tick, so we just end up excepting it.

I think this is why i love this band above all others, you just never know what they might create on a specific night on a specific song. Its a working progress, it has highs and lows, and sometimes on the same night.
What Ronnie and Keith do is fascinating and spontaneous and sometimes downright depressing .
You never know what you are going to get.
Mick and Charlie are always on, that's a given, but what those Guitars do, makes all the difference, especially when Keith is on.

PS.
I think the 69' to 73'' versions of SFM are not as good as i remember them. Keith's intro is non existent and M.Taylor is so high in the mix that i struggle to hear Keith, especially in 73' Mick Jagger is clearly out of breath.
Don't get me wrong i love the energy of early versions of SFM with Taylor but they were far from perfect. They would be dissected and criticized on iorr no doubt had they played them like that last night.

SFM 73'
[www.youtube.com]

SFM 72'
[www.youtube.com]

SFM 69'
[www.youtube.com]

SFM 76'
[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-11 20:14 by stone4ever.

Hard to say really...studies have shown that extensive alcohol abuse can cause mental deterioration similar to dementia. I'm NOT saying that either Ronnie or Keith are demented, but there has to be some dulling of reaction times and recall due to what they've put themselves through, and that probably affects their reflexes and concentration to varying degrees night to night.

Do you really note big differences from night to night, as for their performances? I don't. I see Keith being good, overall, after his start, that was numb, of course.

But even we could disagree about how competent Keith's improvement is, I think is completely baseless any criticism against Ronnie. Not as for the current tour, only. As for the last years.

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laertisflash
Do you really note big differences from night to night, as for their performances? I don't. I see Keith being good, overall, after his start, that was numb, of course.

But even we could disagree about how competent Keith's improvement is, I think is completely baseless any criticism against Ronnie. Not as for the current tour, only. As for the last years.

Yes agreed, but Ronnie goes from having night's that you can't criticize to having nights that blow me away, i still think he is getting better.

I can't think of any guitarist reaching their peak at 70 years of age.
I know he has always had his moments, he has always been up and down,even in the same show, but now i just don't know what he will do next, like with GS the other night, magnificent.

PS.
But then i can't help but think, Ronnie, why have you not been playing GS that way all these years. Something must just come to him, and hay presto GS sounds like it did all those years ago, What fascinates me is what comes to mind for Ronnie or Keith , and why did it take this long to come to mind.
Keith as well, is coming up with new ways to play songs that go back to the original recordings or live shows from decades ago.
I can't tell you how these guys fascinate me, there is no one like them and you can never write them off.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-11 21:08 by stone4ever.

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keefriff99
Hard to say really...studies have shown that extensive alcohol abuse can cause mental deterioration similar to dementia. I'm NOT saying that either Ronnie or Keith are demented, but there has to be some dulling of reaction times and recall due to what they've put themselves through, and that probably affects their reflexes and concentration to varying degrees night to night.

Not to mention all the drugs lol.

I think they are both sharp still, ( when sober ) and i don't think that part of the brain is effected so much with playing music. I think they have always been inconsistent.

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laertisflash
Hairball, I was prepared to praise your positive mood, even it's temporary, but your last phrase prevented me doing that and having such a huge pleasure... Are these current performances "average at best"? Come on...

Depending on how you read or interpret that, I thought that was actually a compliment! Sure there have been a few worse performances in recent years, but if we were to look at every show they've ever done in their entire history, there have been so many more that are far better than what we see and hear today. In other words, far more better performances vs. the small percentage that have been worse - if were to average that all out, to say these are 'average at best' was a positive. Some are saying these current shows are actually far below average, but I wouldn't take it that far.

Keep in mind, I'm not a mathematician, so any results of my theory should be taken with a grain of salt.
And since subjective personal opinions are not to be confused with absolute scientific/objective facts, it's an impossible theory to prove.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Hairball

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laertisflash
Hairball, I was prepared to praise your positive mood, even it's temporary, but your last phrase prevented me doing that and having such a huge pleasure... Are these current performances "average at best"? Come on...

Depending on how you read or interpret that, I thought that was actually a compliment! Sure there have been a few worse performances in recent years, but if we were to look at every show they've ever done in their entire history, there have been so many more that are far better than what we see and hear today. In other words, far more better performances vs. the small percentage that have been worse - if were to average that all out, to say these are 'average at best' was a positive. Some are saying these current shows are actually far below average, but I wouldn't take it that far.

Keep in mind, I'm not a mathematician, so any results of my theory should be taken with a grain of salt.
And since subjective personal opinions are not to be confused with absolute scientific/objective facts, it's an impossible theory to prove.

I suppose most of us are being lenient with recent performances because we all know too well ourselves that as we get older lots of other determinations come into play. Reaction time, energy, stamina, forgetfulness etc.

Considering this criteria i think they are playing above average but compared to 20 years ago they are playing below average. Its all relative.

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stone4ever

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Hairball

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laertisflash
Hairball, I was prepared to praise your positive mood, even it's temporary, but your last phrase prevented me doing that and having such a huge pleasure... Are these current performances "average at best"? Come on...

Depending on how you read or interpret that, I thought that was actually a compliment! Sure there have been a few worse performances in recent years, but if we were to look at every show they've ever done in their entire history, there have been so many more that are far better than what we see and hear today. In other words, far more better performances vs. the small percentage that have been worse - if were to average that all out, to say these are 'average at best' was a positive. Some are saying these current shows are actually far below average, but I wouldn't take it that far.

Keep in mind, I'm not a mathematician, so any results of my theory should be taken with a grain of salt.
And since subjective personal opinions are not to be confused with absolute scientific/objective facts, it's an impossible theory to prove.

I suppose most of us are being lenient with recent performances because we all know too well ourselves that as we get older lots of other determinations come into play. Reaction time, energy, stamina, forgetfulness etc.

Considering this criteria i think they are playing above average but compared to 20 years ago they are playing below average. Its all relative.

Yes stone4ever, and as I previously posted, when you consider that criteria (75 year olds, etc,) and look at it within that context, it's not only pretty good or above average, it's fantastic.
But when the comparisons to the past come in to play, it's hard to be so positive about it all, and might be a bit unrealistic.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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yeababyyea

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shortfatfanny
In all fairness we should wait for the 2062 tour to get a full impression of a 90 years development...

In all fairness I think Street Fighting Man was best live during the Licks-tour, better than in both 1972 or 2017, however this years versions are not far off from 2002-03 and sometimes even better.

Street fighting man hyde park 2 was best ever!

I think it's more fair to compare this years performances with how they played the last few years than with 1969. And to be honest I think the Stones are better now than in 2013/2014, the yearly touring since 2012 has really warmed up the machinery if we overlook a few imperfections in Keith's playing. When I listen to songs like Start Me Up, Brown Sugar and Gimme Shelter the groove and flow is better than the last few years.

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yeababyyea
I think it's more fair to compare this years performances with how they played the last few years than with 1969. And to be honest I think the Stones are better now than in 2013/2014, the yearly touring since 2012 has really warmed up the machinery if we overlook a few imperfections in Keith's playing. When I listen to songs like Start Me Up, Brown Sugar and Gimme Shelter the groove and flow is better than the last few years.

I can't agree. What i hear (in concert, not YT clips) is what i hear.

According to my personal ranking, these current performances are commensurate, less or more, with the gigs of 2014. And I was very satisfied with the particular level of their performances, three years ago.

Also I think their playing is clearly better than what it had been on many gigs of 2007, not only because Keith had serious problems then (health problems, I suppose), but also thanks to Ronnie's better contribution now.

So, I have not reasons to restrain my smile. My precious "old devils" still can do what they know - and have- to do. Hairball says "average at best", I say "decent at worse"..

To be clear: The current gigs, overall, deserve much more than the word "decent". They're really powerful. That's what my ears (not my love for the Stones and their songs) are telling me.

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laertisflash
Hairball says "average at best"

But you're editing what I said and taking that quote completely out of context.

To clarify, in the big picture of the Rolling Stones' entire 50+ year history - I would say average at best. If compared to recent shows from the last couple of mini tours, I said pretty good...even fantastic!

I've been browsing around some videos from the Licks tour 2002/2003, and it's almost like night and day to see the energy level of Mick and the guitar playing and on stage presence of Keith. Amazing what a difference fourteen years can make! I used to get out of breath myself just watching Mick go crazy for two hours, now not so much. Keith used to play it all with authority like he owned the whole stadium - now not so much.

Funny thing is, even during the Licks tour some diehards were saying the Stones were over the hill and have entirely lost the plot - one can only imagine what they think of these recent performances

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-12 08:03 by Hairball.

OK Hairball, I fully understood what you said, it's clear. But I isolated these three words of you ("average at best"), having as aspiration to make a good "opposition" with my three "words" ("decent at worse"). I didn't want to distort your opinion, which is clear.

The Stones never sound "average" or "decent".

They can sound "bad", though

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laertisflash
OK Hairball, I fully understood what you said, it's clear. But I isolated these three words of you ("average at best"), having as aspiration to make a good "opposition" with my three "words" ("decent at worse"). I didn't want to distort your opinion, which is clear.

For what it's worth laertisflash , I experienced a pretty great Stones performance at Desert Trip last year weekend II. In the context of these latter years, I would say it was a fantastic show with a great setlist. (I also was at weekend I but that wasn't that great). Yes there was some good as well as some not so good factors of the show, but not many Stones shows are absolutely perfect anyways. So when I read all the armchair critics picking at all the negatives after the fact, I could only sit back and think "I guess you had to be there and be in my brain to know the joy I experienced at seeing the Stones again". I didn't bother to waste my thoughts in trying to convince anyone of anything - it was a moment and a memory to cherish. Yes some of the other bands at Desert Trip were better and more memorable imo, but the Stones were the Stones and they reminded me of why they've always been my favorite band after the Beatles! So if I may, I suggest you enjoy these Stones shows as I know you are, and don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. It's your personal experience that counts, and is all that really matters. That said, it's always interesting to read what others think whether they were there or not, or whether I agree with them or not. That's what keeps IORR alive imo.

In the meantime, I have to think of other things to praise or nitpick at regarding these No Filter shows.
Bitch sounded pretty good the other night - will they keep it in the setlist? They should!!!
And why did they ditch Play With Fire after only playing it once?!!! GRRR!!!!

ps - It just dawned on me that it will have been exactly a year this Friday since that great Stones experience at Desert Trip weekend II - I might have to celebrate the occasion by having a Stones marathon listening session!

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......