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Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Date: September 13, 2017 16:58

Quote
Winning Ugly VXII
It depends on what your definition of failing might be. Reaction of the target audience or in more of a quality of performance sense.

"Jumping Jack Flash" usually passes both. "Miss You" only passes one of them.

Exactly. And the majority of the audience is happy with just having Miss You, IORR and SFTD to sing along to. Mission accomplished.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Thommie ()
Date: September 13, 2017 16:59

Quote
Silver Dagger
Question - are there any Warhorses that have been written after 1981?

Can't think of any myself.

No song will be a warhorse directly. It will take ca 35 years for a song to become a warhorse so that makes sence...

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: duke richardson ()
Date: September 13, 2017 17:01

i might add Wild Horses to the warhorse list...

grinning smiley

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Date: September 13, 2017 17:06

Quote
duke richardson
i might add Wild Horses to the warhorse list...

grinning smiley

But... Are they tamed yet? winking smiley

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: September 13, 2017 17:07

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Winning Ugly VXII
It depends on what your definition of failing might be. Reaction of the target audience or in more of a quality of performance sense.

"Jumping Jack Flash" usually passes both. "Miss You" only passes one of them.

Exactly. And the majority of the audience is happy with just having Miss You, IORR and SFTD to sing along to. Mission accomplished.

I guess that where you happened to write IORR, you really had YCAGWYW in mind.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Date: September 13, 2017 17:09

Quote
Witness
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Winning Ugly VXII
It depends on what your definition of failing might be. Reaction of the target audience or in more of a quality of performance sense.

"Jumping Jack Flash" usually passes both. "Miss You" only passes one of them.

Exactly. And the majority of the audience is happy with just having Miss You, IORR and SFTD to sing along to. Mission accomplished.

I guess that where you happened to write IORR, you really had YCAGWYW in mind.

Actually not. MY, IORR and SFTD are the ones that people are singing on their way from the shows. Even though they don't open for a crowd singalong during IORR on the shows, it's just infectious (And Mick knows it) smiling smiley

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: September 13, 2017 17:21

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Witness
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Winning Ugly VXII
It depends on what your definition of failing might be. Reaction of the target audience or in more of a quality of performance sense.

"Jumping Jack Flash" usually passes both. "Miss You" only passes one of them.

Exactly. And the majority of the audience is happy with just having Miss You, IORR and SFTD to sing along to. Mission accomplished.

I guess that where you happened to write IORR, you really had YCAGWYW in mind.

Actually not. MY, IORR and SFTD are the ones that people are singing on their way from the shows. Even though they don't open for a crowd singalong during IORR on the shows, it's just infectious (And Mick knows it) smiling smiley

OK. But YCAGWYW is one of the songs, when Mick makes for crowd participation. In fact, myself I prefer Mick to omit such exercises. To me personally it detracts from the impact of the songs.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: buttons67 ()
Date: September 13, 2017 17:34

i dont like the idea of the stones playing warhorses to death. it sort of implies that certain songs are so much better than everything made in the same time period which is not always the case.

is its only rock and roll better than if you cant rock me

is tumbling dice the best song on exile

is start me up the best post 1980 stones song ever

is you got me rocking in the list of top 20 stones songs ever

my answer to these questions would be no.

warhorses dont always represent the best songs, and should be rotated more to leave space for the other songs they could include that are also well known.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: grzegorz67 ()
Date: September 13, 2017 17:58

Quote
buttons67
i dont like the idea of the stones playing warhorses to death. it sort of implies that certain songs are so much better than everything made in the same time period which is not always the case.

is its only rock and roll better than if you cant rock me

is tumbling dice the best song on exile

is start me up the best post 1980 stones song ever

is you got me rocking in the list of top 20 stones songs ever

my answer to these questions would be no.

warhorses dont always represent the best songs, and should be rotated more to leave space for the other songs they could include that are also well known.

The 'best song on an album' is subjective. I do agree with you that songs should be rotated more and so too probably nearly every fan who attends multiple shows. But the vast majority of people at a given show are attending their only gig of the tour so they stick to the familiar with 1 or 2 deepcuts for the diehards. All 'nostalgia acts' have the same problem - Macca, the Who, Fleetwood Mac - take your pick!


I personally think they unfairly neglect their early to mid 60s run of hits that propelled them to Worldwide fame in the 1st place. Little Red Rooster, The Last Time, All over Now - all UK No 1 hits. But Allen Klein's family hold the copyrights to that part of their career and so not so lucrative for live performance as they have to pay royalties for playing these songs.

But the songs are certainly at least as well known as the ones they regularly play. Surely today's huge ticket income would cushion the blow of doing more of these songs?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-09-13 18:06 by grzegorz67.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: September 13, 2017 18:34

Everyone knows them, and they're fun to play, even after 100 years.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: September 13, 2017 18:48

Quote
buttons67
i dont like the idea of the stones playing warhorses to death. it sort of implies that certain songs are so much better than everything made in the same time period which is not always the case.

is its only rock and roll better than if you cant rock me

is tumbling dice the best song on exile

is start me up the best post 1980 stones song ever

is you got me rocking in the list of top 20 stones songs ever

my answer to these questions would be no.

warhorses dont always represent the best songs, and should be rotated more to leave space for the other songs they could include that are also well known.

I don't think that warhorses are supposed to be the "best" songs, they are what the band (Mick+Chuck) thinks are the ones that work better in concert.

I not always agree with them, but that is how it goes.

But let's turn it the other way round. Since 1989, how many non warhorses generated the same excitement level of a warhorse? I mean, in the whole venue, not just in the diehards section.

As far as I can remember, Knocking is a sure call. But how many more?

C

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Erik_Snow ()
Date: September 13, 2017 18:54

Quote
liddas
But let's turn it the other way round. Since 1989, how many non warhorses generated the same excitement level of a warhorse? I mean, in the whole venue, not just in the diehards section.

As far as I can remember, Knocking is a sure call. But how many more?
C

Plenty, I'd say; Shine A Light, Monkey Man, The Last Time, Love Is Strong, Heartbreaker, Like A Rolling Stone, That's How Strong My Love is....allthough that one wasn't played at bigger venues. I'm sure there's more

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: September 13, 2017 18:55

I don't think it matters anymore. Maybe it did ten years ago. They are nearing the end. The cliche question "is this the last tour?" will soon be met.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: slewan ()
Date: September 13, 2017 19:09

by riding it to death

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: duke richardson ()
Date: September 13, 2017 19:09

Quote
Koen
Everyone knows them, and they're fun to play, even after 100 years.


grinning smiley

i was just thinking how cool it would be if they'd do 100 Years Ago...

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: September 13, 2017 19:56

As for the term warhorse in this context, it's not solely a Stones thing as it's been used for years.

From Merriam Webster dictionary: "something (such as a work of art or musical composition) that has become overly familiar or hackneyed due to much repetition in the standard repertoire"

From dictionary.com: "a musical composition, play, etc., that has been seen, heard, or performed excessively".

And from Oxford dicitonary: "A soldier, politician, or sports player who has fought many campaigns or contests".


So you have a song that is a known crowd pleaser that has been in many "battles", but it gets played so often it can become overly familiar and overdone - especially to diehards.
Still, since it's a known crowd pleaser amongst the masses, it still gets played repeatedly, and a Stones concert wouldn't be the same without them. Personally, I still enjoy a few sprinkled throughout,
but the fewer there are the more special the show is which was the case during the Licks Theater/Club shows. There were still the "essential" warhorses, but there were more rarities and surprises which made the shows less hackneyed.

But back to the original question of HOW a warhorse become a warhorse for the Stones? Not sure, but there's clearly not one absolute reason as has been noted throughout this thread.

.
.
_____________________________________________________________
Nothing to do, nowhere to go...you're talkin' to people that you don't know....

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: September 13, 2017 20:21

Quote
Silver Dagger
Question - are there any Warhorses that have been written after 1981?

Can't think of any myself.

None WRITTEN after 1977, if you want to get technical

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Date: September 13, 2017 20:27

Quote
Send It To me
Quote
Silver Dagger
Question - are there any Warhorses that have been written after 1981?

Can't think of any myself.

None WRITTEN after 1977, if you want to get technical

I think we can say 1976, as I believe SMU and MY were (at least partly) written before 1977 smiling smiley

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: September 13, 2017 20:30

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Send It To me
Quote
Silver Dagger
Question - are there any Warhorses that have been written after 1981?

Can't think of any myself.

None WRITTEN after 1977, if you want to get technical

I think we can say 1976, as I believe SMU and MY were (at least partly) written before 1977 smiling smiley

I stand corrected!

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: September 13, 2017 20:33

Interesting that Start Me Up - a warhorse by all means- was written over 40 years ago!

.
.
_____________________________________________________________
Nothing to do, nowhere to go...you're talkin' to people that you don't know....

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Date: September 13, 2017 20:35

Quote
Send It To me
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Send It To me
Quote
Silver Dagger
Question - are there any Warhorses that have been written after 1981?

Can't think of any myself.

None WRITTEN after 1977, if you want to get technical

I think we can say 1976, as I believe SMU and MY were (at least partly) written before 1977 smiling smiley

I stand corrected!

Come to think of it, you're right about MY. They started writing it during a soundcheck in Canada in March 1977, didn't they?

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: RG ()
Date: September 13, 2017 21:03

After the Bigger Bang release I seriously thought that Oh No Not You Again would become a warhorse once. Really like the song during ABB tour. But maybe I am the only one?!

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: September 13, 2017 21:10

Quote
RG
After the Bigger Bang release I seriously thought that Oh No Not You Again would become a warhorse once. Really like the song during ABB tour. But maybe I am the only one?!

Consider it a warpony...similar to what happened with Doom and Gloom.
Seems they want to add another warhorse by forcing the issue, but when a song stinks the crowd reaction lets them know it.
Out of Control and You Got Me Rocking could have been contenders, and seems they still want that to happen - the latter with the "Hey Hey" part that seems to go over ok with the audience.

.
.
_____________________________________________________________
Nothing to do, nowhere to go...you're talkin' to people that you don't know....

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: RG ()
Date: September 13, 2017 21:31

Quote
Hairball
Quote
RG
After the Bigger Bang release I seriously thought that Oh No Not You Again would become a warhorse once. Really like the song during ABB tour. But maybe I am the only one?!

Consider it a warpony...similar to what happened with Doom and Gloom.
Seems they want to add another warhorse by forcing the issue, but when a song stinks the crowd reaction lets them know it.
Out of Control and You Got Me Rocking could have been contenders, and seems they still want that to happen - the latter with the "Hey Hey" part that seems to go over ok with the audience.

Mmmm yes I agree with you. YGMR sounds good live just because of the interaction with the audience. Besides of that it's too bad they haven't played a song from
ABB after the ABB tour, except SOL in Rome 2014. But maybe they can surprise me during the next stops grinning smiley

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: stargroover ()
Date: September 13, 2017 23:03

Paint it Black is not a warhorse.
Warhorses are songs that are played frequently during tours.They are set fillers.They often occur in what is called a warhorse gallop.The gallop is done in the latter part of the show,and signifies a desire to rush to the limo.

A warhorse canter might be a couple of common songs done early set.

An example of a tired warhorse is Brown Sugar.

The use of warhorses is both a safety net and lazy way of filling the set,yet it is sold to us as "no show is complete without the said warhorse".
Stallions are completely opposite to your warhorse.A stallion is a rarely played song,where the band has actually taken time to rehearse.A stallion might be "as tears go by" or "Dancing with Mr D".During the stallion ,there is no train of thought or desire for the limo.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: September 13, 2017 23:07

warhorse


Primary Meanings of warhorse

1. n horse used in war

2. n a work of art (composition or drama) that is part of the standard repertory but has become hackneyed (overused) from much repetition

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: September 14, 2017 00:46

Quote
exilestones
warhorse


Primary Meanings of warhorse

1. n horse used in war

2. n a work of art (composition or drama) that is part of the standard repertory but has become hackneyed (overused) from much repetition

I touched on the definition of 'warhorse' in a previous post exilestones, but now that we're at it:

hackneyed

From Cambridge dictionary: used or said so often that it seems ordinary, meaningless, or not sincere.

From Oxford dictionary: having been overused; unoriginal and trite.

From Merriam-Webster: lacking in freshness or originality.


From a diehard perspective, that could be said of all the warhorses the Stones continue to play (even though some of us still enjoy a sprinkling of them in the set), yet there's reasons they continuously still play them...a majority of the crowd knows them, loves them, and wants to hear them. Plus it's probably easy for the Stones to go on auto-pilot zipping through tunes they've played hundreds of times. But sometimes I wonder if any of them get bored playing the same stuff over and over and over, or maybe their minds drift off somewhere else in the midst of a warhorse - which could explain some of the sloppiness and mistakes we hear. Or maybe they see it simply as a part of their job - a dirty job that has to be done.

.
.
_____________________________________________________________
Nothing to do, nowhere to go...you're talkin' to people that you don't know....

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 14, 2017 01:33

Although they probably don't qualify, since 1981 the newest warhorses could be:

Undercover Of The Night
You Got Me Rocking
Out Of Control

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 14, 2017 01:35

Quote
LongBeachArena72
Some random thoughts ...

For the purposes of discussion, let's call the following songs warhorses:

Satisfaction
Paint It, Black
Jumpin' Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil
Honky Tonk Women
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Brown Sugar
Tumbling Dice
It's Only Rock'N'Roll
Miss You
Start Me Up

You left out Happy and Before They Make Me Run. And Street Fighting Man is probably a warhorse.

Re: How does a warhorse become a warhorse?
Posted by: HonkeyTonkFlash ()
Date: September 14, 2017 02:29

Gotta admit I never thought Miss You would become a warhorse. Silly me. I knew it was a big hit but I considered it sort of a novelty back in 1978. Maybe I was out of touch but I was actually surprised to hear it again in 1981. It just seemed an atypical song for them. Of course it's stayed in the set forever now except when I saw them in 2006, it was replaced by Under My Thumb, for which I was oh so grateful.

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

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