Worst cases of success with minimal talent:

Tiny Tim - no talent
Huey Lewis and the News - average bar band, at best
Most rappers

Should be more successful:

Cheap Trick
Tinsley Ellis






Good to see ya back, ryanpow!

Tinsley Ellis ^^

right on, Elmo



I'd say put the Iguanas up there too.

Good to be back Elmo! I decided to get off of social media. This place is a welcome change.


I say Tom Waits is someone who should be more successful given his talent.

Quoting Mick Jagger...asked the secret of the Stones longevity:
80% luck
10% talent
10% hard work

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jlowe
Quoting Mick Jagger...asked the secret of the Stones longevity:
80% luck
10% talent
10% hard work

When was the last year with "hard work"? 1967? 1982? 2006?

Just had to chime in also:

Hootie and the Blowfish: average bar band, at best.

Justin B, Miley, C, and everyone else like them cut from that same cloth, talentless little sh%ts laughing all the way to the bank...

I'll agree to disagree on Elmo's view of HLN. From my point of view, I don't see any more ability or 'talent' in either Cheep Trick or Tinsley Ellis' band than exists in HLN.

That being said, as far as the talent of individual musicians in most famous bands, many, if not most of them are not measurably superior to non-famous musicians.

In my experience, much of the difference between the two groups of players has far less to do with musical abilities than it does with non-musical factors.

Things like: dedication, commitment, tenacity, luck, work ethic, reliability, sacrifice, confidence, desire, consistency, availability, even personality are among many other attributes which will separate the average famous musician from the average guy of the same age range who isn't famous.

I'd say Mick's assessment is pretty good although I'd revise it as such:
10-20% talent
10-70% luck
10-70% hard work/intangibles

Peace,
Mr DJA

Right on, Mr_dja! And it's sacrifice that often separates the "bar" bands from the ones who make it big.

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Elmo Lewis
Worst cases of success with minimal talent:

Tiny Tim - no talent

Fifty years later and you're harping about Tiny Tim ??


God Bless Tiny Tim


[www.youtube.com]

Most American rock acts got big by touring and working very hard, often for years before breaking through. Even GnR made it big with their first album but had toured pretty steadily before that.
English acts, too, like Zeppelin, but England being a smaller country it was easier to capture the attention of the whole country.
Many bands have had that one hit, but can't stay on top unless they have a deep set of songs and are willing to slog it out on the road for years.

ronaldo.

most overrated football player ever.

not saying he isnt talented, he has some very good attributes that make him deserve to be known as a good footballer.

but best in the world 4 times, no way.

he isnt very good at passing, he rarely crosses for others to score despite being known as a winger, most of his goals are chances others would score, and he gets plenty chances created for him because of the players around him.

even his conversion rate is low despite taking all direct free kicks and penalties.it has went as low as 11%.

proof that anyone can skew stats.

hes never played well at a world cup or euro and at times has looked mediocre compared to other players. i thought the 2014 world cup would have made people sit up and take notice, but the media work hard to fool people, and succeed.

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BamaStone
Just had to chime in also:

Hootie and the Blowfish: average bar band, at best.

Justin B, Miley, C, and everyone else like them cut from that same cloth, talentless little sh%ts laughing all the way to the bank...

Attacking Miley and Bieber? Low-hanging fruit, they are. There have always been teenybopper acts and there always will be. They're not for us, so I refrain from using them as punching bags. They're of no consequence to me.

Talent does not guarantee success, no way, no how. There are guitarists who can shred like Malmsteen and they're relegated to performing on YouTube. Doesn't matter how great their chops are...they don't have the musicianship to write catchy songs, or perform live in a compelling manner.

Mick is spot-on...it's 80% luck, if not more. Then hard work, THEN talent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-03 04:28 by keefriff99.

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wonderboy
Most American rock acts got big by touring and working very hard, often for years before breaking through. Even GnR made it big with their first album but had toured pretty steadily before that.
English acts, too, like Zeppelin, but England being a smaller country it was easier to capture the attention of the whole country.
Many bands have had that one hit, but can't stay on top unless they have a deep set of songs and are willing to slog it out on the road for years.

Led Zeppelin were running around as the New Yardbirds and going nowhere for a couple of months before they were suddenly presented with a $200,000+ recording contract with Atlantic Records.

The reason? John Paul Jones was the bass player and strings arranger on Dusty Springfield's 1968 album on the Philips label Dusty...Definitely. Then, Dusty signed with Atlantic Records to record an album in Memphis, Tennessee. One day, she pulled aside her producer, Jerry Wexler, who was also working in an A&R capacity for Atlantic Records, and told him about this new band that her former session bass player was in. As a result, Wexler signed Led Zeppelin to a huge contract with Atlantic Records -- well over a million dollars in 2017 money -- without even having heard so much as a demo. Sometimes, it's who you know.

Mick Jagger is spot off with that "80% luck" saying -- he's just trying not to be insulting to the average fan. It's 80% marketing. The general public needs to be marketed to before they will buy anything.

As proof of this, thanks to ALO, more than 50 years later many Stones fans are still locked in a teenage "Beatles vs. Stones" mentality -- just look at one of the thread titles on page 1 of this forum.

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stonehearted
Led Zeppelin were running around as the New Yardbirds and going nowhere for a couple of months before they were suddenly presented with a $200,000+ recording contract with Atlantic Records.

The reason? John Paul Jones was the bass player and strings arranger on Dusty Springfield's 1968 album on the Philips label Dusty...Definitely. Then, Dusty signed with Atlantic Records to record an album in Memphis, Tennessee. One day, she pulled aside her producer, Jerry Wexler, who was also working in an A&R capacity for Atlantic Records, and told him about this new band that her former session bass player was in. As a result, Wexler signed Led Zeppelin to a huge contract with Atlantic Records -- well over a million dollars in 2017 money -- without even having heard so much as a demo. Sometimes, it's who you know.

Mick Jagger is spot off with that "80% luck" saying -- he's just trying not to be insulting to the average fan. It's 80% marketing. The general public needs to be marketed to before they will buy anything.

As proof of this, thanks to ALO, more than 50 years later many Stones fans are still locked in a teenage "Beatles vs. Stones" mentality -- just look at one of the thread titles on page 1 of this forum.

VERY interesting.
I wonder if Dusty ever got a (very very nice) bonus for that (very very good) tip?

It seems the whole world operates under who one knows(and/or blows)...
of course the harder one works the luckier one can get, but it seems in entertainment (movies and music) it is more about "playing the game" than talent. Talent helps, but is seems even if someone is super talented they can be disappeared if they don't play the game...

Dexter Romweber, talent but only local success.

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StonedAsia
Dexter Romweber, talent but only local success.

Weeeeelll, I adore Dex and have seen him many times, but he hasn't been big on extensive touring over the years, and is one of life's mavericks, basically.

If by luck you mean the Stones were on to a certain kind of music and delivered it better, and quicker than others did, okay. I see that as being prescient and rewarded for their sincere interest in the neglected music they championed. They were lucky that their early passion attracted as fantastic a musician as Bill Wyman, and that they were able to convince Charlie to get on board. It's certainly no more lucky than John, Paul, George and Ringo, all living within a few miles of each other.

Yes, I corrected on Zeppelin as far as that big advance.
But they did tour pretty constantly behind their first albums.
And Page and Jones had certainly worked hard in the years before. Connections helped, but they had earned those connections.
Plus Page did a good job constructing the band.
Not really a Zep fan here, but always tip my hat to them.
..
When people say luck, I would say timing. Had the Stones (Beatles, Who, Fogerty, etc.) come along 10 years earlier of 10 years later they wouldn't have been so big. The audience was ready for that kind of music and the boomers were a big audience.

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Monsoon Ragoon

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jlowe
Quoting Mick Jagger...asked the secret of the Stones longevity:
80% luck
10% talent
10% hard work

When was the last year with "hard work"? 1967? 1982? 2006?

ouch

Please let me know the next time Huey Lewis' vocal sounds like Robin Zander's.

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mr_dja

In my experience, much of the difference between the two groups of players has far less to do with musical abilities than it does with non-musical factors.

Things like: dedication, commitment, tenacity, luck, work ethic, reliability, sacrifice, confidence, desire, consistency, availability, even personality are among many other attributes which will separate the average famous musician from the average guy of the same age range who isn't famous.


Peace,
Mr DJA

I tend to agree with you. I would add things like stage presence, charisma, attitude, good looking...and as wonderboy stated, timing (which is in the luck category).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-03 21:29 by Jumpinjackflash59.

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Elmo Lewis
Please let me know the next time Huey Lewis' vocal sounds like Robin Zander's.

Based on my (now) limited memory, I'm pretty sure they never have. Why would you want to hear them do so now?

I personally like Zander's sound with Cheap Trick and Huey's sound with the News. Not sure that I'd really want either of them to sit in with the other's band as a primary vocalist...

Now... if Rick Nielsen wanted to sit in with the News, or Johnny Colla was going to blow some sax with Cheap Trick, those might be a couple of scenarios I'd like to hear. As much as I'm fascinated by Petersson's use of 8 & 12 string basses, I'm not sure how well they (the basses themselves) would fit with the News. I haven't heard him play much out of his role with Cheap Trick but I'd bet he could do a fine job sitting in with the News as well... At least, based on his ability to lay down a fine rock & roll line under "Ain't That A Shame" (which I've played dozens of times myself), I'd assume he could lock into the News' rock & roll.

Peace,
Mr DJA

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Jumpinjackflash59

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mr_dja

In my experience, much of the difference between the two groups of players has far less to do with musical abilities than it does with non-musical factors.

Things like: dedication, commitment, tenacity, luck, work ethic, reliability, sacrifice, confidence, desire, consistency, availability, even personality are among many other attributes which will separate the average famous musician from the average guy of the same age range who isn't famous.


Peace,
Mr DJA

I tend to agree with you. I would add things like stage presence, charisma, attitude, good looking...and as wonderboy stated, timing (which is in the luck category).

Good additions... I knew my list was incomplete before I even hit the "Post message" button.

Especially in this day and age, where visuals can be as important if not more so than the audio portion (where limitations can be covered with technology), it's kind of sad to think that the chances of someone who doesn't have "model/attractive" looks might not make it too far. Kind of depressing to think about how many of my musical heroes might not have been available to me under today's "standards"... For (a limited) example: Dylan, Aerosmith, Steely Dan, Little Feat, even The Stones are not all the most attractive and in some cases, downright scary looking! It's a shame to think that the next Dylan (or Stones) might not get to my ears because someone thinks they're not good enough for my eyes. Luckily for me, listeners are not required to be good looking or I'd be living silence!

Peace,
Mr DJA

Everything here is subjective.

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HankM

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stonehearted
John Paul Jones was the bass player and strings arranger on Dusty Springfield's 1968 album on the Philips label Dusty...Definitely. Then, Dusty signed with Atlantic Records to record an album in Memphis, Tennessee. One day, she pulled aside her producer, Jerry Wexler, who was also working in an A&R capacity for Atlantic Records, and told him about this new band that her former session bass player was in. As a result, Wexler signed Led Zeppelin to a huge contract with Atlantic Records -- well over a million dollars in 2017 money -- without even having heard so much as a demo.

I wonder if Dusty ever got a (very very nice) bonus for that (very very good)

I imagine it was a favor as thanks for the wonderful job he did with her album -- which sounds fantastic by the way...
Ain't No Sun Since You Been Gone: [www.youtube.com]
This Girl's In Love With You: [www.youtube.com]
I Think It's Gonna Rain Today: [www.youtube.com]

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stonehearted

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HankM

Quote
stonehearted
John Paul Jones was the bass player and strings arranger on Dusty Springfield's 1968 album on the Philips label Dusty...Definitely. Then, Dusty signed with Atlantic Records to record an album in Memphis, Tennessee. One day, she pulled aside her producer, Jerry Wexler, who was also working in an A&R capacity for Atlantic Records, and told him about this new band that her former session bass player was in. As a result, Wexler signed Led Zeppelin to a huge contract with Atlantic Records -- well over a million dollars in 2017 money -- without even having heard so much as a demo.

I wonder if Dusty ever got a (very very nice) bonus for that (very very good)

I imagine it was a favor as thanks for the wonderful job he did with her album -- which sounds fantastic by the way...


Ain't No Sun Since You Been Gone: [www.youtube.com]
This Girl's In Love With You: [www.youtube.com]
I Think It's Gonna Rain Today: [www.youtube.com]

Thank you for the links

huey lewis and the news worked very hard to make it.

I think the looks issue affects country moreso than other musical fields - while Carrie Underwood, for example, is a looker, she's no Loretta Lynn or Tammy Wynette as far as talent goes. Not that she's bad, just speaking of raw talent.

Zander's good looks (as well as Ric's goofball act) may have prevented the band from being taken seriously - thank goodness the musical talent shined thru.

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Elmo Lewis
I think the looks issue affects country moreso than other musical fields - while Carrie Underwood, for example, is a looker, she's no Loretta Lynn or Tammy Wynette as far as talent goes. Not that she's bad, just speaking of raw talent.

More than "top 40 Pop"? Although I won't necessarily disagree, I'd think those two could be listed as 1-A & 1-B with a constant flip-flopping for the top position. I'm not sure which drives me crazier, Bro-country or the manufactured pop boy/girl bands/vocal groups that are so popular right now. In both cases, at least from my point of view, both seem to have WAY more style than substance.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Always puzzled why Cheap Trick is not more popular. Of course it's a matter of taste/opinion but I think they make great music and put on fantastic concerts. Just wish they would tour Europe more often.