Tell Me :
Talk
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Danger ? I thought you were going to say the ability to mis-label tracks, use inferior sources and end the song on a sloppy drum fill.
But seriously, both groups had superb rhythm sections enabling the band to do their thing which in the Fab4's case was principally vocals and songwriting. Everything else is the accompaniment. In the Stones case they were more of a big noise unit (er?) - Get Off Of My Cloud 45 mix being perhaps the prime example and yes indeed, extremely dangerous if not downright threatening in the same way the Jumping Jack Flash single is.
What struck me on revisiting these BBC tracks is that on the first session, Charlie doesn't seem quite there yet, many of his fills are way off but Bill is already pretty much right on it. Both versions of Roll Over Beethoven (Saturday Club and the January 64 Go Man Go) show Charlie not quite on it for my money.
By Spring/mid 64 the whole band has improved massively in confidence,strength and unity and seem to have a clear idea about where they should be going even if they haven't got their songwriting together.
Bill's bass on Aint That Loving You Baby has always been a favourite of mine but he shines throughout. What remained for the Stones to do at this point (mid-64) was to Taylor (!) their own songs to their new-found strength and group identity on a regular basis. Funnily enough, by that point (Spring 64) they'd been together (if not played) for the requisite 10,000 hours or 416 days-ish. By the time they arrived at Chess they were shit hot. The BBC tracks give us the chance to hear a bit of that development. Much as I love later Stones (1965,66,67,68,69,70,71,72), I've always thoroughly enjoyed their 1964 output. Not quite there but just about to quantum leap which in my opinion happened with Satisfaction. That is their "She Loves You" moment. I'm gonna have to agree with you on danger now aren't I ?!
Despite being an employee or "hired hand", I doubt that Darryl is instructed note for note what he has to play. My take is simply that it's not "his music" in the way what for example Miles Davis' music meant to him. He's technically perfect, and that's probably exactly what is required from him at this point (a solid, reliable backbone - just like Chuck), but he lacks Bill's imagination to do something unique within the relatively simple chord structures of Rock 'n Roll.
He might have been told what not to play, though.
You mean in a "Daryl, this ain't no jazz or jazz-rock fusion combo, so better keep it simple!" - "Ok, boss!" - way?
Exactly
That's very right !
Well said.
Another difference between Bill and Darryl before joining THE ROLLING STONES:
Bill with The Cliftons: No video found.
Darryl with Peter Grabiel 1988: [youtu.be]
And for the first 30 years of the band, Bill held it together so the two guitarists could play on top of it, while doing the push-pull.
So even then Darryl couldn't put the one note where it belonged.
Not the way I would put it. Keith played the main rhythm and Bill was part of the push-pull with Charlie (Bill anticipating the beat and Charlie playing behind it).
Watch those DVDs from the 70s and 80s. There's a lot of times Bill held the whole thing together when Ronnie and Keith got messy.
Yeah, when Keith stopped covering the rhythm as much I can see (or hear) that.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: December 14, 2017 20:56
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: December 14, 2017 21:02
Yes Greek there's nothing wrong with it - he's a hired hand.
At the same time, there's nothing exceptional about it either.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
At the same time, there's nothing exceptional about it either.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
UrbanSteel
()
Date: December 14, 2017 21:06
X
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-07-08 15:40 by UrbanSteel.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-07-08 15:40 by UrbanSteel.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 14, 2017 21:08
Quote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 14, 2017 21:10
Jesus H. Christ. I just heard Walking The Dog, Little by Little, and Ain't That Loving You Baby. What a rhythm section. Now I see what the Stones had the Beatles never could pull off, danger.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: December 14, 2017 22:48
Yep !!! .... Danger ...
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
buttons67
()
Date: December 15, 2017 00:02
also the stones never made a song that could be confused with the wombles.
cant say that about the beatles.
cant say that about the beatles.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: December 15, 2017 00:55
Quote
24FPS
Jesus H. Christ. I just heard Walking The Dog, Little by Little, and Ain't That Loving You Baby. What a rhythm section. Now I see what the Stones had the Beatles never could pull off, danger.
Danger ? I thought you were going to say the ability to mis-label tracks, use inferior sources and end the song on a sloppy drum fill.
But seriously, both groups had superb rhythm sections enabling the band to do their thing which in the Fab4's case was principally vocals and songwriting. Everything else is the accompaniment. In the Stones case they were more of a big noise unit (er?) - Get Off Of My Cloud 45 mix being perhaps the prime example and yes indeed, extremely dangerous if not downright threatening in the same way the Jumping Jack Flash single is.
What struck me on revisiting these BBC tracks is that on the first session, Charlie doesn't seem quite there yet, many of his fills are way off but Bill is already pretty much right on it. Both versions of Roll Over Beethoven (Saturday Club and the January 64 Go Man Go) show Charlie not quite on it for my money.
By Spring/mid 64 the whole band has improved massively in confidence,strength and unity and seem to have a clear idea about where they should be going even if they haven't got their songwriting together.
Bill's bass on Aint That Loving You Baby has always been a favourite of mine but he shines throughout. What remained for the Stones to do at this point (mid-64) was to Taylor (!) their own songs to their new-found strength and group identity on a regular basis. Funnily enough, by that point (Spring 64) they'd been together (if not played) for the requisite 10,000 hours or 416 days-ish. By the time they arrived at Chess they were shit hot. The BBC tracks give us the chance to hear a bit of that development. Much as I love later Stones (1965,66,67,68,69,70,71,72), I've always thoroughly enjoyed their 1964 output. Not quite there but just about to quantum leap which in my opinion happened with Satisfaction. That is their "She Loves You" moment. I'm gonna have to agree with you on danger now aren't I ?!
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: December 15, 2017 01:05
Dangerous or not, have to say that Beatles first BBC release was phenomenal in comparison this new Stones version.
There was no mislabeling, no use of inferior sources, and no screwed up edits as far as I can recall. Been awhile since I listened to it, but it was on heavy rotation in my world for weeks and months when it was released - can't say the same for Stones On Air, but maybe that's because of my previous familarity with. Several listens start to finish, and it's already found it's place in the Stones section of my cd collection. Similar the the Beatles BBC II...nice to have but not something that demands my complete attention for weeks on end.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
There was no mislabeling, no use of inferior sources, and no screwed up edits as far as I can recall. Been awhile since I listened to it, but it was on heavy rotation in my world for weeks and months when it was released - can't say the same for Stones On Air, but maybe that's because of my previous familarity with. Several listens start to finish, and it's already found it's place in the Stones section of my cd collection. Similar the the Beatles BBC II...nice to have but not something that demands my complete attention for weeks on end.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 15, 2017 01:47
I just found my first transcendent cut, 'I Can't Be Satisfied'. I love the studio version with Brian's liquid slide, but this version is totally metallic and strikes a different tone. Fantastic!.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-15 19:58 by 24FPS.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-15 19:58 by 24FPS.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: December 15, 2017 13:11
Well, this would be an issue to take up with Sir Michael JaggerQuote
Hairball
Yes Greek there's nothing wrong with it - he's a hired hand.
At the same time, there's nothing exceptional about it either.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: December 15, 2017 13:16
The point would be we can't rag on his musical chops because he isn't allowed to let it loose .Check out any of his work with Miles Davis and tell me he can't play circles around anybody in the music industry and lay down some killer funky grooves like he invented the 4 string bass .Quote
24FPSQuote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: December 15, 2017 13:38
Quote
TheGreekThe point would be we can't rag on his musical chops because he isn't allowed to let it loose .Check out any of his work with Miles Davis and tell me he can't play circles around anybody in the music industry and lay down some killer funky grooves like he invented the 4 string bass .Quote
24FPSQuote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Despite being an employee or "hired hand", I doubt that Darryl is instructed note for note what he has to play. My take is simply that it's not "his music" in the way what for example Miles Davis' music meant to him. He's technically perfect, and that's probably exactly what is required from him at this point (a solid, reliable backbone - just like Chuck), but he lacks Bill's imagination to do something unique within the relatively simple chord structures of Rock 'n Roll.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 15, 2017 14:17
Quote
retired_dogQuote
TheGreekThe point would be we can't rag on his musical chops because he isn't allowed to let it loose .Check out any of his work with Miles Davis and tell me he can't play circles around anybody in the music industry and lay down some killer funky grooves like he invented the 4 string bass .Quote
24FPSQuote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Despite being an employee or "hired hand", I doubt that Darryl is instructed note for note what he has to play. My take is simply that it's not "his music" in the way what for example Miles Davis' music meant to him. He's technically perfect, and that's probably exactly what is required from him at this point (a solid, reliable backbone - just like Chuck), but he lacks Bill's imagination to do something unique within the relatively simple chord structures of Rock 'n Roll.
He might have been told what not to play, though.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: December 15, 2017 16:06
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
retired_dogQuote
TheGreekThe point would be we can't rag on his musical chops because he isn't allowed to let it loose .Check out any of his work with Miles Davis and tell me he can't play circles around anybody in the music industry and lay down some killer funky grooves like he invented the 4 string bass .Quote
24FPSQuote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Despite being an employee or "hired hand", I doubt that Darryl is instructed note for note what he has to play. My take is simply that it's not "his music" in the way what for example Miles Davis' music meant to him. He's technically perfect, and that's probably exactly what is required from him at this point (a solid, reliable backbone - just like Chuck), but he lacks Bill's imagination to do something unique within the relatively simple chord structures of Rock 'n Roll.
He might have been told what not to play, though.
You mean in a "Daryl, this ain't no jazz or jazz-rock fusion combo, so better keep it simple!" - "Ok, boss!" - way?
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 15, 2017 16:13
Quote
retired_dogQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
retired_dogQuote
TheGreekThe point would be we can't rag on his musical chops because he isn't allowed to let it loose .Check out any of his work with Miles Davis and tell me he can't play circles around anybody in the music industry and lay down some killer funky grooves like he invented the 4 string bass .Quote
24FPSQuote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Despite being an employee or "hired hand", I doubt that Darryl is instructed note for note what he has to play. My take is simply that it's not "his music" in the way what for example Miles Davis' music meant to him. He's technically perfect, and that's probably exactly what is required from him at this point (a solid, reliable backbone - just like Chuck), but he lacks Bill's imagination to do something unique within the relatively simple chord structures of Rock 'n Roll.
He might have been told what not to play, though.
You mean in a "Daryl, this ain't no jazz or jazz-rock fusion combo, so better keep it simple!" - "Ok, boss!" - way?
Exactly
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
CousinC
()
Date: December 15, 2017 16:18
Quote
retired_dogQuote
TheGreekThe point would be we can't rag on his musical chops because he isn't allowed to let it loose .Check out any of his work with Miles Davis and tell me he can't play circles around anybody in the music industry and lay down some killer funky grooves like he invented the 4 string bass .Quote
24FPSQuote
TheGreek
Darryl Jones has the musical chops , it's just that he isn't allowed to showboat or showoff or anything like that at all .He is strictly a company man following orders .Same as me or the next person following your supervisors direction in order to collect that pay check .Nothing wrong with that at all .
Then what's the point? 'Never want to be like Papa, workin' for the man every night and day....'
Despite being an employee or "hired hand", I doubt that Darryl is instructed note for note what he has to play. My take is simply that it's not "his music" in the way what for example Miles Davis' music meant to him. He's technically perfect, and that's probably exactly what is required from him at this point (a solid, reliable backbone - just like Chuck), but he lacks Bill's imagination to do something unique within the relatively simple chord structures of Rock 'n Roll.
That's very right !
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 15, 2017 20:12
The bottom line is Charlie liked Darryl Charlie likes jazz. The problem is the Stones are primarily a rock and roll band. (Or an R&B band). Bill Wyman grew up as a musician playing rock and R&B. It's in his bones. Rock and roll and R&B is a side project for Darryl. He was born one year before the Stones. Darryl grew up with jazz. It's in his bones. He had little experience with rock and roll before joining the Rolling Stones. I don't think it crossed Charlie's mind that he was choosing an inappropriate musician for the band he plays in.
Charlie's always been flip about rock and roll, not especially caring for the music, only caring for the band he's in. He apparently didn't pay much attention to Bill's playing when Bill was in the band. Charlie had to go over parts with Darryl after Bill was gone and was surprised at Bill's cleverness. Keith seems to be the only one in the Stones who understands Bill's musical contribution to the Rolling Stones. Darryl isn't a bad musician, but at this point it's obvious he doesn't have a feeling for rock and roll.
Charlie's always been flip about rock and roll, not especially caring for the music, only caring for the band he's in. He apparently didn't pay much attention to Bill's playing when Bill was in the band. Charlie had to go over parts with Darryl after Bill was gone and was surprised at Bill's cleverness. Keith seems to be the only one in the Stones who understands Bill's musical contribution to the Rolling Stones. Darryl isn't a bad musician, but at this point it's obvious he doesn't have a feeling for rock and roll.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
TeddyB1018
()
Date: December 15, 2017 22:46
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
RipThisBone
()
Date: December 15, 2017 23:19
Quote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
Well said.
Another difference between Bill and Darryl before joining THE ROLLING STONES:
Bill with The Cliftons: No video found.
Darryl with Peter Grabiel 1988: [youtu.be]
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
Deltics
()
Date: December 16, 2017 01:18
Couldn't they have got Darryl to overdub the two missing bass notes at the start of "Come On"?
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
georgelicks
()
Date: December 16, 2017 01:32
#50 in the UK on week 2 with 4,000 copies sold (13,600 copies total)
[www.officialcharts.com]
[www.officialcharts.com]
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 16, 2017 01:36
Quote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
And for the first 30 years of the band, Bill held it together so the two guitarists could play on top of it, while doing the push-pull.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 16, 2017 01:37
Quote
RipThisBoneQuote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
Well said.
Another difference between Bill and Darryl before joining THE ROLLING STONES:
Bill with The Cliftons: No video found.
Darryl with Peter Grabiel 1988: [youtu.be]
So even then Darryl couldn't put the one note where it belonged.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 16, 2017 01:42
Quote
24FPSQuote
RipThisBoneQuote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
Well said.
Another difference between Bill and Darryl before joining THE ROLLING STONES:
Bill with The Cliftons: No video found.
Darryl with Peter Grabiel 1988: [youtu.be]
So even then Darryl couldn't put the one note where it belonged. In other words you hear where the bass should hit a not that pins the sound. Darryl doesn't hit that note. Now, if it added something to the sound, bravo. It doesn't. It sounds like the bass is incomplete.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
TeddyB1018
()
Date: December 16, 2017 05:34
Quote
24FPSQuote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
And for the first 30 years of the band, Bill held it together so the two guitarists could play on top of it, while doing the push-pull.
Not the way I would put it. Keith played the main rhythm and Bill was part of the push-pull with Charlie (Bill anticipating the beat and Charlie playing behind it).
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 16, 2017 05:43
Quote
TeddyB1018Quote
24FPSQuote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
And for the first 30 years of the band, Bill held it together so the two guitarists could play on top of it, while doing the push-pull.
Not the way I would put it. Keith played the main rhythm and Bill was part of the push-pull with Charlie (Bill anticipating the beat and Charlie playing behind it).
Watch those DVDs from the 70s and 80s. There's a lot of times Bill held the whole thing together when Ronnie and Keith got messy.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
TeddyB1018
()
Date: December 16, 2017 09:32
Quote
24FPSQuote
TeddyB1018Quote
24FPSQuote
TeddyB1018
Darryl doesn’t play from his jazz roots in the Stones. His job since the nineties is to hold things down so Keith and Ronnie can play licks on top. Before this, Keith was the one who held it together with Charlie. Thus the Stones became a more consistent live act while losing to some extent the push-pull we loved.
And for the first 30 years of the band, Bill held it together so the two guitarists could play on top of it, while doing the push-pull.
Not the way I would put it. Keith played the main rhythm and Bill was part of the push-pull with Charlie (Bill anticipating the beat and Charlie playing behind it).
Watch those DVDs from the 70s and 80s. There's a lot of times Bill held the whole thing together when Ronnie and Keith got messy.
Yeah, when Keith stopped covering the rhythm as much I can see (or hear) that.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
kish_stoned
()
Date: December 16, 2017 12:04
George this album is not good seller for even xmas, I wonder why I think it will drop in price after xmas, book is already dropped in price In some bookshops in london. Well its only Rock & Roll.
Re: On Air in the Sixties: New Book, CD and LP by The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
Monsoon Ragoon
()
Date: December 16, 2017 14:14
I will soon buy DAC-130 for $55 plus shipping from Japan (yes, that's VERY expensive) and NOT this piece of shit for half the price. The best bootlegs of this stuff definitively better and have 70% more takes.
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