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Doxa

One just needs to listen the guitar intro and riff track of "Gimme Shelter", probably Keith's biggest creative hour, seperately to hear how technically raw and even sloppy it is, but the result especially in the context of the whole track is nothing but genious and immortal. Me thinks the best guitar track ever recorded.

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
But shouldn't that "Sunday pensioner project" be reviewed as that as well, not be compared to Exile?

They lived music in 1972, and worked on a daily basis.

BTW, if you listen to Keith's slide guitar on TD, you'll find that he got away with a lot by 1972 already. I think you missed my point: Criticising Keith or the Stones for shortcomings as musicians is a moot point

With respect I think you Dandie are missing point made both by retired dog and retired Doxa... We just argued that technical excellence has nothing to do with the creativity or greatness of the Stones. That also and especially applies to their hey-day. So I really don't understand why you are insisting on that point neither of us is arguing for. Is that the technical issue, and knowing how limited the STones are in that sense, is such an important thing for you as a musician?

One just needs to listen the guitar intro and riff track of "Gimme Shelter", probably Keith's biggest creative hour, seperately to hear how technically raw and even sloppy it is, but the result especially in the context of the whole track is nothing but genious and immortal. Me thinks the best guitar track ever recorded.

- Doxa

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Doxa

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treaclefingers

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Doxa

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treaclefingers



so funny, i look at those song titles and in my head i can hear the song and micks voice on the title lyrics.

Me too haha (and unfortunately they doesn't sound too promising for me...)

- Doxa

but that's the correct approach...have exceptionally low expectations and then, THEN only be mildly disappointed with the actual results!

I think that's the implicit approach any Stones fan has adopted a long time ago to survive will they admit or not.... That especially explains the celebration Keith's album caused. That he released the bloody thing - be the content whatever - was a pleasent surprise for many. And since it included something listenable, that was an extra bonus - he wasn't totally "gone" as many feared.

- Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
But shouldn't that "Sunday pensioner project" be reviewed as that as well, not be compared to Exile?

They lived music in 1972, and worked on a daily basis.

BTW, if you listen to Keith's slide guitar on TD, you'll find that he got away with a lot by 1972 already. I think you missed my point: Criticising Keith or the Stones for shortcomings as musicians is a moot point

With respect I think you Dandie are missing point made both by retired dog and retired Doxa... We just argued that technical excellence has nothing to do with the creativity or greatness of the Stones. That also and especially applies to their hey-day. So I really don't understand why you are insisting on that point neither of us is arguing for. Is that the technical issue, and knowing how limited the STones are in that sense, is such an important thing for you as a musician?

One just needs to listen the guitar intro and riff track of "Gimme Shelter", probably Keith's biggest creative hour, seperately to hear how technically raw and even sloppy it is, but the result especially in the context of the whole track is nothing but genious and immortal. Me thinks the best guitar track ever recorded.

- Doxa

No big deal. I was just referring to the "sloppy and amateurish playing"-part in your first post. That part was moot. Most of the other stuff was okay by me

Retired dog is just misinterpreting my post by taking elements from it out of context.

Your line about GS just confirms what I'm saying. Hence it isn't the playing or lack of skills that is the problem with CH.

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wonderboy
I would agree that Keith lost his 'genius' years ago, although genius is such a loaded term. You don't want to say that he came up with those great songs purely by inspiration. He had talent, he was always working, his antennae was always up, he was surrounded by great ideas and great talent.
Also, I don't think his revisionism to reject the idea that the Stones were sloppy and just sort of showed up and put things together on the fly. Listen to a song like Wild Horses and count how many layers and different guitars have been painstakingly worked in there. And how many months and takes did they work on BS until the great raw take in Muscle Shoals ... and then they built on that for many more months.
The great Stones period -- 68-72 -- wasn't a natural steppingstone from their early period, Mick and Keith created it through this act of will and calculation and making decisions about what they would sound like.
I'm talking more about in the studio. I feel I'm on slippier ground talking about their live act.
What happened after 1972? They had their moments, but I think they just got older, had more distractions, the drugs and alcohol took their toll, Keith and Mick had musical differences, and now they are basically a Stones cover band. They're stuck doing themselves, which, being a great band to start with, has given them a 30-40 year run.
Just throwing out my opinion. People like doxa and hopkins are really interesting to read.[/quote

Keith may have lost his way, but he's never lost his genius. Amazingly enough his future is still unwritten.

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retired_dog

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
But shouldn't that "Sunday pensioner project" be reviewed as that as well, not be compared to Exile?

They lived music in 1972, and worked on a daily basis.

BTW, if you listen to Keith's slide guitar on TD, you'll find that he got away with a lot by 1972 already. I think you missed my point: Criticising Keith or the Stones for shortcomings as musicians is a moot point

With respect I think you Dandie are missing point made both by retired dog and retired Doxa... We just argued that technical excellence has nothing to do with the creativity or greatness of the Stones. That also and especially applies to their hey-day. So I really don't understand why you are insisting on that point neither of us is arguing for. Is that the technical issue, and knowing how limited the STones are in that sense, is such an important thing for you as a musician?

One just needs to listen the guitar intro and riff track of "Gimme Shelter", probably Keith's biggest creative hour, seperately to hear how technically raw and even sloppy it is, but the result especially in the context of the whole track is nothing but genious and immortal. Me thinks the best guitar track ever recorded.

- Doxa

No big deal. I was just referring to the "sloppy and amateurish playing"-part in your first post. That part was moot. Most of the other stuff was okay by me

Retired dog is just misinterpreting my post by taking elements from it out of context.

Your line about GS just confirms what I'm saying. Hence it isn't the playing or lack of skills that is the problem with CH.

I don't think I was misinterpreting you as the tendency to "lower" the achievements in the studio and in particular live concert performances of the "golden age" was all too obvious (and not justified imho).

But whatever. Perhaps part of the truth is that to everything there is a season and that rock'n'roll artists/bands only have a limited timespan where they give everything they can possibly give and achieve everything they can possibly achieve in creative terms and after that, it's more or less repetition. While other artists seem to accept the fact that they are not able to add anything truly outstanding to their heyday's achievements not matter how hard they try, the Stones tried a different route by adding "contemporary" sounds to their music in order to give the impression of a still relevant band compared to merely an oldies act.

While this concept worked to a certain point ("Miss You", "Emotional Rescue"), latter attempts such as "Anybody Seen My Baby", "Mights As Well Get Juiced" or numerous dance mixes of certain songs received cold shoulders from their fanbase as well as from the general public. With hindsight, it would have been better for them to concentrate on what they're doing best in the past decades instead of desperately trying to sound "contemporary".

It took them decades to learn that lesson, and "Blue And Lonesome" is the result imho. Meanwhile, "Crosseyed Heart" is Keith doing what he does best, not trying to pretend what's simply not there - but it clearly shows that the well of great, memorable songs has become a bit dry, therefore some great covers would have helped to produce an album that begs for repeated listening - which it isn't, imho.

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DandelionPowderman

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retired_dog

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
But shouldn't that "Sunday pensioner project" be reviewed as that as well, not be compared to Exile?

They lived music in 1972, and worked on a daily basis.

BTW, if you listen to Keith's slide guitar on TD, you'll find that he got away with a lot by 1972 already. I think you missed my point: Criticising Keith or the Stones for shortcomings as musicians is a moot point

With respect I think you Dandie are missing point made both by retired dog and retired Doxa... We just argued that technical excellence has nothing to do with the creativity or greatness of the Stones. That also and especially applies to their hey-day. So I really don't understand why you are insisting on that point neither of us is arguing for. Is that the technical issue, and knowing how limited the STones are in that sense, is such an important thing for you as a musician?

One just needs to listen the guitar intro and riff track of "Gimme Shelter", probably Keith's biggest creative hour, seperately to hear how technically raw and even sloppy it is, but the result especially in the context of the whole track is nothing but genious and immortal. Me thinks the best guitar track ever recorded.

- Doxa

No big deal. I was just referring to the "sloppy and amateurish playing"-part in your first post. That part was moot. Most of the other stuff was okay by me

Retired dog is just misinterpreting my post by taking elements from it out of context.

Your line about GS just confirms what I'm saying. Hence it isn't the playing or lack of skills that is the problem with CH.

I don't think I was misinterpreting you as the tendency to "lower" the achievements in the studio and in particular live concert performances of the "golden age" was all too obvious (and not justified imho).

But whatever. Perhaps part of the truth is that to everything there is a season and that rock'n'roll artists/bands only have a limited timespan where they give everything they can possibly give and achieve everything they can possibly achieve in creative terms and after that, it's more or less repetition. While other artists seem to accept the fact that they are not able to add anything truly outstanding to their heyday's achievements not matter how hard they try, the Stones tried a different route by adding "contemporary" sounds to their music in order to give the impression of a still relevant band compared to merely an oldies act.

While this concept worked to a certain point ("Miss You", "Emotional Rescue"), latter attempts such as "Anybody Seen My Baby", "Mights As Well Get Juiced" or numerous dance mixes of certain songs received cold shoulders from their fanbase as well as from the general public. With hindsight, it would have been better for them to concentrate on what they're doing best in the past decades instead of desperately trying to sound "contemporary".

It took them decades to learn that lesson, and "Blue And Lonesome" is the result imho. Meanwhile, "Crosseyed Heart" is Keith doing what he does best, not trying to pretend what's simply not there - but it clearly shows that the well of great, memorable songs has become a bit dry, therefore some great covers would have helped to produce an album that begs for repeated listening - which it isn't, imho.

Again, I was merely pointing to Doxa's argument about technical abilities as a reason to dismiss Keith's album (not the only one of his points, but a significant one).

That's why I said that even in their heyday, they could be a ramshackle, and had those shortcomings.

Like you, I love this era, as well as the music they created together.

No Stone was ever bigger than the band, including Keith. But I think it's unfair that Keith, in his mid-70s. gets this kind of flak for his album.

I apologise if I was unclear, and for thinking you cherrypicked parts of my post to make it look like I had other intentions.

Like I said, it's no big deal - and I can't see any disagreement here