Most of Stones songs were co-written with somebody in the band (Keith or Mick or one of the others) or somebody outside the band. Many of their songs are in fact based on other songs and were developed with a producer like Jimmy Miller. I dont know why this is so hard to comprehend. It is what it is.

You're flogging a dead horse, and some of the things you call writing isn't necessarily that.

Don't forget the musician's and the producer's tasks, and what their jobs consist of..

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DandelionPowderman
– Jack, the gardener, was jumping about in Keith's garden that day to inspire them
– They wrote the music
– They came up with the title
– Mick finished the lyrics
– They recorded it the very next day, and Bill didn't get to play the riff he wrote, nor the bass track

Yes, not in that order. More like:

- Bill was fooling around on the piano (playing Satisfaction backwards as a joke).
- The Glimmers came in, liked the sound of it and decided to write a song around it.
– The Glimmers went to Redlands and stayed up all night developing the music.
– Early in the morning Jack, the gardener, was jumping about in Keith's garden to inspire them.
– They came up with the title phrase that fit the music and Mick finished the lyrics.
– They recorded it. Bill didn't get to play the riff nor the bass track (and he couldn't claim to have written it because "it" was Satisfaction backwards).

Coming up with a lick really isn't writing a song. Where are the chord changes? The Structure? The vocal melody. If I came up with lick to let's say My Girl and thats it. Thats only a small percentage of the song. The song can go in many many directions like DandelionPowerderman said it depends he producer and many other factors. If I dug a hole doesn't mean a built a house.

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with sssoul

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DandelionPowderman
– Jack, the gardener, was jumping about in Keith's garden that day to inspire them
– They wrote the music
– They came up with the title
– Mick finished the lyrics
– They recorded it the very next day, and Bill didn't get to play the riff he wrote, nor the bass track

Yes, not in that order. More like:

- Bill was fooling around on the piano (playing Satisfaction backwards as a joke).
- The Glimmers came in, liked the sound of it and decided to write a song around it.
– The Glimmers went to Redlands and stayed up all night developing the music.
– Early in the morning Jack, the gardener, was jumping about in Keith's garden to inspire them.
– They came up with the title phrase that fit the music and Mick finished the lyrics.
– They recorded it. Bill didn't get to play the riff nor the bass track (and he couldn't claim to have written it because "it" was Satisfaction backwards).

It isnt Satisfaction backwards (that is Keiths excuse since he didnt write the riff) it is a riff played on organ and it's so good that Keith and Mick used it as basis for JJF. No need to Keithwash this.

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More Hot Rocks
Coming up with a lick really isn't writing a song. Where are the chord changes? The Structure? The vocal melody. If I came up with lick to let's say My Girl and thats it. Thats only a small percentage of the song. The song can go in many many directions like DandelionPowerderman said it depends he producer and many other factors. If I dug a hole doesn't mean a built a house.

Bill never claimed that. He came up with the riff. Im not saying he wrote the song. Well. This is clearly a sensitive subject in the fanclub. Why oh why didnt keith come up with that riff.

Just out of curiosity: how would you all have reacted if it was Mick who came up with the riff? Or Ronnie? Im pretty sure we would all be ok with that but not Bill or Brian and never ever Mick Taylor or God forbid some outsider like Ry Cooder.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-22 17:24 by Redhotcarpet.

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Redhotcarpet
It isnt Satisfaction backwards (that is Keiths excuse since he didnt write the riff) it is a riff played on organ
and it's so good that Keith and Mick used it as basis for JJF. No need to Keithwash this.

Piano, not organ, and I'm not "Keithwashing" anything.
I am cognizant that the JJF riff is not Satisfaction backwards,
but that doesn't mean it's not what Bill was fooling around with at that piano.

Anyway, my main point was that the songwriting didn't start with someone saying "jumping Jack"
and then someone else saying "Flash" for no reason. The cat said "Flash" because it suited the rhythm
of the song they'd been working on all night.

From the book "Keith Richards: Satisfaction" by Christopher Sandford

I am not a musician, but surely others had played around with that riff before. The world is full of riffs and little bits, but a song is what you do with them.
And the magic of the Stones is more than the riffs, it's the way they created sounds in the studio. With this song, the story is the way Keith electrified the acoustic instruments through his tape deck.
Also look at the chronology -- Bill was fooling around with something as a lark -- but Keith saw the potential, Mick and Keith wrote the words, Keith played with the riff and did something else with it, Keith created the sound. If Bill had been out to Redlands in the writing process or played a bigger role in the studio (like MT probably did in later years) I'd feel he had a stronger claim to a writing credit.

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wonderboy
I am not a musician, but surely others had played around with that riff before. The world is full of riffs and little bits, but a song is what you do with them.
And the magic of the Stones is more than the riffs, it's the way they created sounds in the studio. With this song, the story is the way Keith electrified the acoustic instruments through his tape deck.
Also look at the chronology -- Bill was fooling around with something as a lark -- but Keith saw the potential, Mick and Keith wrote the words, Keith played with the riff and did something else with it, Keith created the sound. If Bill had been out to Redlands in the writing process or played a bigger role in the studio (like MT probably did in later years) I'd feel he had a stronger claim to a writing credit.

Im a musician and why do you assume Bill fooled around with this gem of a riff until Keith suddenly entered the room with his magical wisdom? The riff is what it is, Keith played it on an electric guitar. He played Street Fighting man on an acoustic. Keith and Mick loved that riff and Keith transcribed it to guitar. That doesnt mean Bill didnt write the riff. We cant have it both ways. either it is a great riff by Keith (which it isnt) or it's "just (which it isnt btw) Satisfaction backwards".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-22 22:34 by Redhotcarpet.

Could this be "Jumpin" Jack Dyer ??????????????????



ROCKMAN

Could very well be, Rockee!

I think it's him yes.

I always figured Bill was trying to play Buffalo Springfield's "Mr. Soul" on organ, but I can't prove that.

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Rocky Dijon
I always figured Bill was trying to play Buffalo Springfield's "Mr. Soul" on organ, but I can't prove that.

That's Satisfaction sideways, right?

Could it be Dad Bert....smoking a pipe, as ever
OR
Mr Bill Wyman and his metal detector...searching for that riff.

Could it be Dad Bert....smoking a pipe, as ever


photo is from daily Mirror 1970-72 ....
from memory Bert didn't come back in Keith life till the early 80's



ROCKMAN

Of course.
Stand corrected!

It's okay all is forgiven .....remain seated ....



ROCKMAN

And Bert would have been way younger round that time..

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Redhotcarpet

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GasLightStreet
That was in ROLLING STONE I think, about the LICKS tour or whatever, the one with Keith on the cover.

Mick and I were in my house (laughs) in England in the country... and we'd been up all night and it was 6:30 in the morning, a dismal day, you know, English, grey. And we were just both crashing, Mick was on the couch and I was in an armchair with a guitar and we were, like, on the verge. And suddenly this sound of these boots (laughs) went by the window, clump clump clump - really, I mean, you had to be there to hear it - and woke Mick up, What was that? And I said - I looked out the window and I thought, Oh, that's Jack, that's jumpin' Jack. You know and then we started to play with those words. But I mean, really, it was sort of virtually woke up out of a stupor by this guy's boots, he was my gardener, he was a great guy but he's another story. And but... I just said, That's Jack. Well he's leaping about a bit. Yeah, I said, it's jumpin' Jack and then flash came and suddenly we were wide awake and we started to work, you know. You never know when they're going to come.
- Keith Richards, 2003

And then this bit from wherever:

Jumpin' Jack Flash comes from this guy Jack Dyer, who was my gardener. He'd lived out in the country all his life. I'll put it this way: Jack Dyer, an old English yokel. I once said, Have you ever been to town? And town, to an Englishman, means London, right? And he says, Oh Yeah, I was up there V.E. Day, when the war finished. That cathedral is something. He meant Chichester, the local big town, seven miles away... Mick says, Flash. He'd just woken up. And suddenly we had this wonderful alliterative phrase. So he woke up and we knocked it together.
- Keith Richards, July 1997


[timeisonourside.com]

BS.

Probably, ha ha! A good story but a bit... foppish.

Bills riff aside - of course the song was developed and of course Micks alter ego, the video, Brians image in that video, the guitars, Keiths bassline in the end, bills keyboards - Millers production (the satanic monotone Jumpingbjack flash repeated over drums and bass - w o w), Micks jumping Jacks and his firecracker moves! Brilliant. And of course Keiths open g version live in 1969. Heavy. So yes i get all that and bill said himself he was glad they lade a great song out of that riff. Still, today im pretty sure he wouldve had a credit or some other deal with a percantage from sales. Different times, new ways of marketing. It wouldnt be that important now IF a song said Jagger/Richards/Wood.

The riff as played during the R.G. Jones Studios rehearsals is quite a bit different than the official studio version, so Keith did change the riff around quite a bit. As he did when he played it in standard tuning, and even more so to how he played it in open G.

Mathijs

Great info, now please tree the f***er ;-)

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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Mathijs
The riff as played during the R.G. Jones Studios rehearsals is quite a bit different than the official studio version, so Keith did change the riff around quite a bit. As he did when he played it in standard tuning, and even more so to how he played it in open G.

Mathijs

Maybe he ended up with the original Bill Wyman penned riff on the studio version. Or maybe the standard tuned circus version is the one that comes close.

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Redhotcarpet

Quote
with sssoul

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DandelionPowderman
– Jack, the gardener, was jumping about in Keith's garden that day to inspire them
– They wrote the music
– They came up with the title
– Mick finished the lyrics
– They recorded it the very next day, and Bill didn't get to play the riff he wrote, nor the bass track

Yes, not in that order. More like:

- Bill was fooling around on the piano (playing Satisfaction backwards as a joke).
- The Glimmers came in, liked the sound of it and decided to write a song around it.
– The Glimmers went to Redlands and stayed up all night developing the music.
– Early in the morning Jack, the gardener, was jumping about in Keith's garden to inspire them.
– They came up with the title phrase that fit the music and Mick finished the lyrics.
– They recorded it. Bill didn't get to play the riff nor the bass track (and he couldn't claim to have written it because "it" was Satisfaction backwards).

It isnt Satisfaction backwards (that is Keiths excuse since he didnt write the riff) it is a riff played on organ and it's so good that Keith and Mick used it as basis for JJF. No need to Keithwash this.

"keithwash" it-that is a new classic.the keithettes have a way of turning any situation into him being the hero and anyone else,usually jagger,into being the bad guy.
they are currently on two seperate threads pushing the idea that lisa fisher was fired from the stones{by mick of course] and that if keith had a say poor lisa would still be with the band.
even though we have no evidence that lisa was "fired" or asked to leave in any way,shape or form or that her leaving had anything to do with mick.that doesn't matter,they keithwash it anyway.

remember in days past when they carried on about "jaggers greedy ticket prices" and that keith was all about the music and would charge much less if it were up to him,probably play only small clubs even.they "keithwashed" his part in the high prices as if he was forced to take the millions,it was beyond his control.

by the way,bill never said he "wrote jumping jack flash" he said he played the riff on a piano and they took it from there.they never denied it and in fact offered to give him a writing credit if he stayed with the band when he was going to leave.

Yeah lem you is on the trail ....

Maybe Kristofferson should do a rewrite and title it Blame It On Jagger ....hhhhhaaaaaa








ROCKMAN

Quote
with sssoul

– They recorded it. Bill didn't get to play the riff nor the bass track (and he couldn't claim to have written it because "it" was Satisfaction backwards).

But, it isn't Satisfaction backwards.

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gotdablouse
Great info, now please tree the f***er ;-)

It has been posted before, but those links are no longer working:

[www.iorr.org]