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I think it was the bass pattern that Billy initiated, not the guitar/harp-riff, but it is indeed a cool bass pattern.
We don't know how much adjustment Bill did to it, though.
According to Mick and Keith's stories about both the lyrics and the music, they would have had to write the lyrics and the chords/melody that very evening/night in Keith's house, for Bill's story to be true. Unless the «Jumping Jack-story» is pure fiction, that is
I believe you are correct, DP - It was the bass riff or an embryonic form of it that Preston came up with. I've read somewhere that Wyman claims to have gone out to clubs and soaked up the disco vibe for about a week or so before laying down his definitive walking bass part.
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
Yeah, I really believe that Bill developed that bass line. It really sounds like him, despite the octaves and disco-stuff. He probably got a little push from Billy first, though
What he always leaves out of the story is that his "messing about on the piano" consisted of
playing the Satisfaction riff more or less backwards to poke fun at the tardy Mick and Keith.
So it was utterly hilarious to him when they finally wandered in and thought it sounded good.
And it was utterly hilarious until they turned it into a compelling new piece of music.
That's a hypothesis I came up with a few years ago, and it explains everything I need to know about the scenario.
Satisfaction was inspired by another tune, but that tune didn't have the riff.
Good songwriters would and should let themselves be inspired by art around them, imo.
Bobby contributed to the beat on Ventilator Blues. What did he do for Happy?
A small part of the licks Keith play in the verses on HTW is to be found acoustically on Downtown Suzie. No doubt about Keith listening to those tapes. However, he extended the licks and made them his own.
Lots of musicians have contributed on Stones albums, but isn't that their job. Wouldn't there be a Ruby Tuesday without Brian's recorder? I love that, btw.
"The other" She's So Cold is a joke, imo. It's nothing like the Stone's track.
Who claimed to have written the Rambler-riff?
The only variation I know of is the switch from open E to open G; what other versions are around?
That story is about the lyrics, Elmo dear. The riff is what Bill has at times claimed to have come up with.
apart from that change, and leaving the intro off, as it was on the single, the live versions have different arrangements ..
the latter versions from I guess the last 20 years have this dropped note before the third verse, in the chord, I love it..
then theres who sings the 'jumpin jack flash, its a gas ' refrain through the ending section..I loved it when Ronnie and Keith did that part, but now its the backing vocalists..
also I believe the latter versions are a lot longer than in the 70's and '81..
The two first live attempts in 1968 were done in standard tuning: Rock and Roll Circus for certain and most probably the NME show judging by available photos (Keith Plays the same Les Paul without a capo).
Actually, there is a Rolling Stone interview from 2010 where Keith says the following:
"The lyrics came from a gray dawn at Redlands. Mick and I had been up all night, it was raining outside, and there was the sound of these boots near the window, belonging to my gardener, Jack Dyer. It woke Mick up. He said, 'What's that?' I said, 'Oh, that's Jack. That's jumping Jack.' I started to work around the phrase on the guitar, which was in open tuning, singing the phrase 'Jumping Jack.' Mick said, 'Flash,' and suddenly we had this phrase with a great rhythm and ring to it."
OK, that's one of a few versions of it that have appeared - and even in this one
he's not saying the title phrase was the start to the whole number.
They'd been up all night working on the music/verses and came up with the title phrase near dawn.
Standard tuning on Rock'n'Roll Circus.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: February 13, 2017 07:53
Mick Martin of the Blues Party of KXJZ radio in Sacramento said recently that Bill came up with Jumpin Jack Flash. Is this true?
plexi
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-22 01:51 by timbernardis.
plexi
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-22 01:51 by timbernardis.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
The Worst.
()
Date: February 13, 2017 08:25
He has always claimed to be the one who came up with RIFF, while jamming on piano in Olympic Studios with Charlie and Brian. That may be true, but no way that Bill wrote the whole song by himself. The lyrics are undoubtedly written by Mick, and Keith must have been involved in making the arrangement and chord structure. The latter would include transforming Bill's piano riff to guitar in open-e. Maybe J.J. Flash should have been credited Nanker/Phelge? It’s hard to say, but Bill has always stated very clearly in several interviews that he was involved in the making of Flash and Paint it Black. He almost sounds bitter when talking about it, so I guess there is some truth to it.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: February 13, 2017 12:11
The big distinction between the Beatles and the Stones is that the Beatles were a pop-band, with excellent pop-songs which were either written by McCartney and/or Lennon or by Harrison. The Stones is a jam/groove band. Even though Jagger and Richards have written quite a number of pop-songs together "in the kitchen", and my guess is that initially Richards was the main musical motor and Jagger the clown with the funny ideas (see the documentary "Charlie is My Darling") while later on Jagger's role as a musician grew. But certainly from Beggars Banquet on, when the "modern Stones" took off, it has been a band where their main songs (including JJF) are based on a riff+groove+rhythm and less on fancy chord compositions. These songs might be originally conceived in "the kitchen" by Richards/Jagger or based on a jam by Wyman or Brian or Charlie Watts and Taylor waiting for Keith, in the end it's a combination of all factors (including the important role of Jimmy Miller) which made those songs work, groove, "roll", etc... So, who wrote the song? You might as well say "nobody". In some way, one could say that the fairest would be to give credit to the entire band. The reason - I think - that in end almost all songs are credited to Richars/Jagger is because the lyrics and titles come from them and because they are the ones who take the final decision which songs to play, which songs end up on the record, and who are the ones most involved in the production, the arrangements, the song direction, sound etc... So, it's perfectly possible that Wyman came up with the basic riff during a jam (after all, it's a pretty obvious melody when jamming a blues), just as Miller came up with the percussion on Honky Tonk Women, Brian Jones came up with the sitar in Paint it Black and Mick Taylor invented beautiful melody-lines on Moonlight Mile.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: February 13, 2017 12:12
Bill Wyman 1982:
"We got to the studio early once and... in fact I think it was a rehearsal studio, I don't think it was a recording studio. And there was just myself, Brian and Charlie - the Stones NEVER arrive at the same time, you know - and Mick and Keith hadn't come.
"And I was just messing about and I just sat down at the piano and started doing this riff, da-daw, da-da-daw, da-da-daw... and then Brian played a bit of guitar and Charlie was doing a rhythm. We were just messing with it for 20 minutes, just filling in time, and Mick and Keith came in and we stopped and they said, Hey, that sounded really good, carry on, what is it?
- Oh, that was just something we were messing with.
- That sounds good.
And then the next day all I can really remember... we recorded it and Mick wrote great lyrics to it and it turned out to be a really good single.
"We got to the studio early once and... in fact I think it was a rehearsal studio, I don't think it was a recording studio. And there was just myself, Brian and Charlie - the Stones NEVER arrive at the same time, you know - and Mick and Keith hadn't come.
"And I was just messing about and I just sat down at the piano and started doing this riff, da-daw, da-da-daw, da-da-daw... and then Brian played a bit of guitar and Charlie was doing a rhythm. We were just messing with it for 20 minutes, just filling in time, and Mick and Keith came in and we stopped and they said, Hey, that sounded really good, carry on, what is it?
- Oh, that was just something we were messing with.
- That sounds good.
And then the next day all I can really remember... we recorded it and Mick wrote great lyrics to it and it turned out to be a really good single.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 13, 2017 12:29
It would have been interesting to hear why Bill accepted a) that he didn't get to play the piano on the recording b) that he didn't get to play the riff he created c) that he didn't get to play the bass at all on JJF.
Did they really record the song the very next day? Was Bill present when they recorded it? Or did he add the hammond-bit a little later on?
The JJF-riff on piano is not that easy to make stand out, in a jam with guitar and drums.
Lots of loose ends with this story. I wish they all (Bill in particular) could elaborate a little on this one..
Did they really record the song the very next day? Was Bill present when they recorded it? Or did he add the hammond-bit a little later on?
The JJF-riff on piano is not that easy to make stand out, in a jam with guitar and drums.
Lots of loose ends with this story. I wish they all (Bill in particular) could elaborate a little on this one..
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: February 13, 2017 16:11
Jamming and stumbling upon a riff does not a song-writer make. It's totally plausible that Bill unearthed the primal riff but no doubt it was Mick and Keith who wrote an actual song out of it. It's also been said that Billy Preston originated the basic Miss You riff but he can't be said to have written the song.
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 13, 2017 16:47
Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash
Jamming and stumbling upon a riff does not a song-writer make. It's totally plausible that Bill unearthed the primal riff but no doubt it was Mick and Keith who wrote an actual song out of it. It's also been said that Billy Preston originated the basic Miss You riff but he can't be said to have written the song.
I think it was the bass pattern that Billy initiated, not the guitar/harp-riff, but it is indeed a cool bass pattern.
We don't know how much adjustment Bill did to it, though.
According to Mick and Keith's stories about both the lyrics and the music, they would have had to write the lyrics and the chords/melody that very evening/night in Keith's house, for Bill's story to be true. Unless the «Jumping Jack-story» is pure fiction, that is
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: February 13, 2017 17:10
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
HonkeyTonkFlash
Jamming and stumbling upon a riff does not a song-writer make. It's totally plausible that Bill unearthed the primal riff but no doubt it was Mick and Keith who wrote an actual song out of it. It's also been said that Billy Preston originated the basic Miss You riff but he can't be said to have written the song.
I think it was the bass pattern that Billy initiated, not the guitar/harp-riff, but it is indeed a cool bass pattern.
We don't know how much adjustment Bill did to it, though.
According to Mick and Keith's stories about both the lyrics and the music, they would have had to write the lyrics and the chords/melody that very evening/night in Keith's house, for Bill's story to be true. Unless the «Jumping Jack-story» is pure fiction, that is
I believe you are correct, DP - It was the bass riff or an embryonic form of it that Preston came up with. I've read somewhere that Wyman claims to have gone out to clubs and soaked up the disco vibe for about a week or so before laying down his definitive walking bass part.
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 13, 2017 17:17
Quote
HonkeyTonkFlashQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
HonkeyTonkFlash
Jamming and stumbling upon a riff does not a song-writer make. It's totally plausible that Bill unearthed the primal riff but no doubt it was Mick and Keith who wrote an actual song out of it. It's also been said that Billy Preston originated the basic Miss You riff but he can't be said to have written the song.
I think it was the bass pattern that Billy initiated, not the guitar/harp-riff, but it is indeed a cool bass pattern.
We don't know how much adjustment Bill did to it, though.
According to Mick and Keith's stories about both the lyrics and the music, they would have had to write the lyrics and the chords/melody that very evening/night in Keith's house, for Bill's story to be true. Unless the «Jumping Jack-story» is pure fiction, that is
I believe you are correct, DP - It was the bass riff or an embryonic form of it that Preston came up with. I've read somewhere that Wyman claims to have gone out to clubs and soaked up the disco vibe for about a week or so before laying down his definitive walking bass part.
Yeah, I really believe that Bill developed that bass line. It really sounds like him, despite the octaves and disco-stuff. He probably got a little push from Billy first, though
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: February 13, 2017 18:01
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It would have been interesting to hear why Bill accepted a) that he didn't get to play the piano on the recording b) that he didn't get to play the riff he created c) that he didn't get to play the bass at all on JJF.
What he always leaves out of the story is that his "messing about on the piano" consisted of
playing the Satisfaction riff more or less backwards to poke fun at the tardy Mick and Keith.
So it was utterly hilarious to him when they finally wandered in and thought it sounded good.
And it was utterly hilarious until they turned it into a compelling new piece of music.
That's a hypothesis I came up with a few years ago, and it explains everything I need to know about the scenario.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: February 13, 2017 19:12
DP <It would have been interesting to hear why Bill accepted a) that he didn't get to play the piano on the recording b) that he didn't get to play the riff he created c) that he didn't get to play the bass at all on JJF.>
Which brings up another thing that I loved about the Stones back in those days was how their songs were treated very differently onstage. Listen to Ya Ya's; Bill doesn't try to copy the bass part Keith recorded. He pretty much does the main riff in tandem with Keith. Maybe it was his way of saying, "Hey - this is MY riff!"
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
Which brings up another thing that I loved about the Stones back in those days was how their songs were treated very differently onstage. Listen to Ya Ya's; Bill doesn't try to copy the bass part Keith recorded. He pretty much does the main riff in tandem with Keith. Maybe it was his way of saying, "Hey - this is MY riff!"
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: February 13, 2017 19:49
And what about Keith's gardener, Jumpin' Jack? And that story
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
Send It To me
()
Date: February 13, 2017 20:23
Bill said he wrote riff to JJF, Satisfaction was ripped from an obscure rock tune from '64 (forget what it was, but it's been posted and discussed here before), Ry Cooter came up with licks to Honky Tonk Women, Brian Jones contributed to Ruby Tuesday, Bobby Keys contributed to Happy, and I believe some obscure bluesman laid claim to the Midnight Rambler lick. (Also, She's So Cold closely tracks an obscure late 70's tune of the same name.) Still, none of these innovations would have amounted to anything without the Jagger/Richards engine.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-13 20:28 by Send It To me.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-13 20:28 by Send It To me.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
laertisflash
()
Date: February 13, 2017 20:26
I don't know folks... But JJF is pure Keith's soul IMO...
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 13, 2017 20:56
Quote
Send It To me
Bill said he wrote riff to JJF, Satisfaction was ripped from an obscure rock tune from '64 (forget what it was, but it's been posted and discussed here before), Ry Cooter came up with licks to Honky Tonk Women, Brian Jones contributed to Ruby Tuesday, Bobby Keys contributed to Happy, and I believe some obscure bluesman laid claim to the Midnight Rambler lick. (Also, She's So Cold closely tracks an obscure late 70's tune of the same name.) Still, none of these innovations would have amounted to anything without the Jagger/Richards engine.
Satisfaction was inspired by another tune, but that tune didn't have the riff.
Good songwriters would and should let themselves be inspired by art around them, imo.
Bobby contributed to the beat on Ventilator Blues. What did he do for Happy?
A small part of the licks Keith play in the verses on HTW is to be found acoustically on Downtown Suzie. No doubt about Keith listening to those tapes. However, he extended the licks and made them his own.
Lots of musicians have contributed on Stones albums, but isn't that their job. Wouldn't there be a Ruby Tuesday without Brian's recorder? I love that, btw.
"The other" She's So Cold is a joke, imo. It's nothing like the Stone's track.
Who claimed to have written the Rambler-riff?
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: February 13, 2017 21:11
I can totally see how a riff Bill conjured up on piano just messing around became Jumpin Jack Flash...
and, look how flexible they have been with this song..how many different ways its been played..
I particularly love Aretha Franklin doing it, for that Whoopi Goldberg movie, with Keith, and Steve Jordan..
and wouldn't Bill have spoken up more emphatically if he felt he should have gotten writing credit...
no, Mick and Keith steered that song to its recorded version..
they reworked it for playing live, and then re-worked that..
what a song.
and, look how flexible they have been with this song..how many different ways its been played..
I particularly love Aretha Franklin doing it, for that Whoopi Goldberg movie, with Keith, and Steve Jordan..
and wouldn't Bill have spoken up more emphatically if he felt he should have gotten writing credit...
no, Mick and Keith steered that song to its recorded version..
they reworked it for playing live, and then re-worked that..
what a song.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
Send It To me
()
Date: February 13, 2017 21:38
Can't remember the specifics of the Rambler accusation, but did come across it once. Forgot to mention that the chorus of The Last Time is lifted from gospel, as we all know (which makes the legal action against The Verve all the more absurd).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-13 21:38 by Send It To me.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-13 21:38 by Send It To me.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: February 13, 2017 21:49
Quote
duke richardson
I can totally see how a riff Bill conjured up on piano just messing around became Jumpin Jack Flash...
and, look how flexible they have been with this song..how many different ways its been played..
The only variation I know of is the switch from open E to open G; what other versions are around?
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: February 13, 2017 21:57
Quote
Elmo Lewis
And what about Keith's gardener, Jumpin' Jack? And that story
That story is about the lyrics, Elmo dear. The riff is what Bill has at times claimed to have come up with.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: February 13, 2017 22:29
Quote
KoenQuote
duke richardson
I can totally see how a riff Bill conjured up on piano just messing around became Jumpin Jack Flash...
and, look how flexible they have been with this song..how many different ways its been played..
The only variation I know of is the switch from open E to open G; what other versions are around?
apart from that change, and leaving the intro off, as it was on the single, the live versions have different arrangements ..
the latter versions from I guess the last 20 years have this dropped note before the third verse, in the chord, I love it..
then theres who sings the 'jumpin jack flash, its a gas ' refrain through the ending section..I loved it when Ronnie and Keith did that part, but now its the backing vocalists..
also I believe the latter versions are a lot longer than in the 70's and '81..
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
The Worst.
()
Date: February 13, 2017 22:56
Quote
KoenQuote
duke richardson
I can totally see how a riff Bill conjured up on piano just messing around became Jumpin Jack Flash...
and, look how flexible they have been with this song..how many different ways its been played..
The only variation I know of is the switch from open E to open G; what other versions are around?
The two first live attempts in 1968 were done in standard tuning: Rock and Roll Circus for certain and most probably the NME show judging by available photos (Keith Plays the same Les Paul without a capo).
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
The Worst.
()
Date: February 13, 2017 23:00
Quote
with sssoulQuote
Elmo Lewis
And what about Keith's gardener, Jumpin' Jack? And that story
That story is about the lyrics, Elmo dear. The riff is what Bill has at times claimed to have come up with.
Actually, there is a Rolling Stone interview from 2010 where Keith says the following:
"The lyrics came from a gray dawn at Redlands. Mick and I had been up all night, it was raining outside, and there was the sound of these boots near the window, belonging to my gardener, Jack Dyer. It woke Mick up. He said, 'What's that?' I said, 'Oh, that's Jack. That's jumping Jack.' I started to work around the phrase on the guitar, which was in open tuning, singing the phrase 'Jumping Jack.' Mick said, 'Flash,' and suddenly we had this phrase with a great rhythm and ring to it."
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: February 13, 2017 23:17
Quote
The Worst.
Actually, there is a Rolling Stone interview from 2010 where Keith says the following ...
OK, that's one of a few versions of it that have appeared - and even in this one
he's not saying the title phrase was the start to the whole number.
They'd been up all night working on the music/verses and came up with the title phrase near dawn.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
kish_stoned
()
Date: February 13, 2017 23:24
If true why no more tunes like that from Bill Wyman,think mick and keith might have picked on what was played by the other 3 and got J.j. flash as a song.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 13, 2017 23:46
Quote
KoenQuote
duke richardson
I can totally see how a riff Bill conjured up on piano just messing around became Jumpin Jack Flash...
and, look how flexible they have been with this song..how many different ways its been played..
The only variation I know of is the switch from open E to open G; what other versions are around?
Standard tuning on Rock'n'Roll Circus.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 20, 2017 14:47
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Send It To me
Satisfaction was inspired by another tune, but that tune didn't have the riff.
/quote]
Nowhere to run, the riff is in the horns.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 20, 2017 15:14
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Send It To me
Satisfaction was inspired by another tune, but that tune didn't have the riff.
/quote]
Nowhere to run, the riff is in the horns.
Then you have better ears than me. I only hear chord-like phrasing, and not the riff (two different notes only).
Of course, the effect is very similar indeed.
[www.youtube.com]
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 20, 2017 15:49
Nothing new there. No other musician got as many songwriting credits with the Stones as Ronnie, though. The author must be hinting at the early tracks (I Can Feel The Fire, It's Only Rock'n'Roll and Hey Negrita).
As the article says, «adding a guitar solo or drumbeat or organ over an existing song structure (and not contributing to the actual structure or melody of the song) is not typically considered songwriting».
There will always be borderline cases, where new instrumental parts are «challenging» the original structure of the song and its melody.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-20 15:49 by DandelionPowderman.
As the article says, «adding a guitar solo or drumbeat or organ over an existing song structure (and not contributing to the actual structure or melody of the song) is not typically considered songwriting».
There will always be borderline cases, where new instrumental parts are «challenging» the original structure of the song and its melody.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-20 15:49 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Is it True that Wyman Wrote JJF?
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: February 20, 2017 18:01
Adding the main riff to a song which is based on that very riff is pretty significant.
"The flipside of this is a band like the Rolling Stones, who split the songwriting 50/50 between Mick and Keith and “hire” other members like guitarist Ron Wood to be in the band, and pay them a fee. Often, this fee is structured as a “work made for hire” arrangement, where the band member forgoes any songwriting credit he/she might be entitled to, as a condition of being “employed”. So even if the Stones record a song to which Ron Wood materially contributed, the songwriting would still be assigned entirely to Mick and Keith (no wonder Ron keeps recording solo albums!)."
"The flipside of this is a band like the Rolling Stones, who split the songwriting 50/50 between Mick and Keith and “hire” other members like guitarist Ron Wood to be in the band, and pay them a fee. Often, this fee is structured as a “work made for hire” arrangement, where the band member forgoes any songwriting credit he/she might be entitled to, as a condition of being “employed”. So even if the Stones record a song to which Ron Wood materially contributed, the songwriting would still be assigned entirely to Mick and Keith (no wonder Ron keeps recording solo albums!)."
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