Again, I don't think KR's issues are with Mick's songs per se as much as the process. He wants the band to records playing the songs together, as they did with Blue and Lonesome. Of course, those songs were fully written, so it's a bit different, but what Keith doesn't want is to just sprinkle his "fairy dust" over Mick and Matt Clifford's demos. Keith at minimum playing a live backing track with Charlie (yes, of course I know he's been subbed for a few times), that's what makes it a "classic" Rolling Stones album. Clearly, and in contrast, if Ronnie and Charlie are playing on these MJ solo recordings, they overdubbed on to the electronic backing track.

Quote
Hairball

Quote
35love

Quote
Hairball
Yes that was odd to read stonehearted, as if Ronnie was under oath in court and his lawyer objected to a particular question.

I think his manager might've been warning:
Don't trash other bands! (by saying who you might think should've retired by now)
It's usually a regret having a negative printed about another band.

Agree, it was just odd that he had a handler/manager step in like that. I've seen and read many interviews with Ronnie, and don't recall him ever being accompanied by his manager.
Even on his radio show while having other musicians as guests, they would shoot the breeze about whatever they wanted, and no manager was ever there by his side (as far as I know).
But maybe now because he's always very candid and known to lets things out of the bag, he's been assigned someone to accompany him during interviews. As the saying goes, "loose lips sink ships"...

no. the messages from Stones camp are: the rehearsals, the up coming shows, & they are working towards a new album...any variation, or veering off topic could/ would swallow the message....see a certain politician's recent problems for reference....

Quote
Rip This

Quote
Hairball

Quote
35love

Quote
Hairball
Yes that was odd to read stonehearted, as if Ronnie was under oath in court and his lawyer objected to a particular question.

I think his manager might've been warning:
Don't trash other bands! (by saying who you might think should've retired by now)
It's usually a regret having a negative printed about another band.

Agree, it was just odd that he had a handler/manager step in like that. I've seen and read many interviews with Ronnie, and don't recall him ever being accompanied by his manager.
Even on his radio show while having other musicians as guests, they would shoot the breeze about whatever they wanted, and no manager was ever there by his side (as far as I know).
But maybe now because he's always very candid and known to lets things out of the bag, he's been assigned someone to accompany him during interviews. As the saying goes, "loose lips sink ships"...

no. the messages from Stones camp are: the rehearsals, the up coming shows, & they are working towards a new album...any variation, or veering off topic could/ would swallow the message....see a certain politician's recent problems for reference....

You forgot Ronnie's book.

Quote
35love

Quote
Rip This

Quote
Hairball

Quote
35love

Quote
Hairball
Yes that was odd to read stonehearted, as if Ronnie was under oath in court and his lawyer objected to a particular question.

I think his manager might've been warning:
Don't trash other bands! (by saying who you might think should've retired by now)
It's usually a regret having a negative printed about another band.

Agree, it was just odd that he had a handler/manager step in like that. I've seen and read many interviews with Ronnie, and don't recall him ever being accompanied by his manager.
Even on his radio show while having other musicians as guests, they would shoot the breeze about whatever they wanted, and no manager was ever there by his side (as far as I know).
But maybe now because he's always very candid and known to lets things out of the bag, he's been assigned someone to accompany him during interviews. As the saying goes, "loose lips sink ships"...

no. the messages from Stones camp are: the rehearsals, the up coming shows, & they are working towards a new album...any variation, or veering off topic could/ would swallow the message....see a certain politician's recent problems for reference....

You forgot Ronnie's book.

And everything else Ronnie was freely able to talk about without being hushed by his manager- his past drinking problems, his history with drugs, etc.
Maybe they could fit Ronnie with a muzzle, and every time he veers too far off topic they could zap him with an electric shock. lol

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
TeddyB1018
Again, I don't think KR's issues are with Mick's songs per se as much as the process. He wants the band to records playing the songs together, as they did with Blue and Lonesome. Of course, those songs were fully written, so it's a bit different, but what Keith doesn't want is to just sprinkle his "fairy dust" over Mick and Matt Clifford's demos. Keith at minimum playing a live backing track with Charlie (yes, of course I know he's been subbed for a few times), that's what makes it a "classic" Rolling Stones album. Clearly, and in contrast, if Ronnie and Charlie are playing on these MJ solo recordings, they overdubbed on to the electronic backing track.

___________________________________________


I don't think Charlie and Ronnie actually 'play' on these tracks. It was only mentioned here earlier that Ronnie and Charlie were on board .. In other words willing to try the song out or see how taking the avenue the song was taking for a ride with them on it. Keith was not on board and was not interested.

I don't think Charlie and Ronnie play on these .. in fact.. I know Charlie is not on drums and I cannot hear a Ronnie guitar (I do however hear Mick on guitar on Gotta Get A Grip).

I never thought Ronnie and Charlie were on them initially either Ian, and I still can't hear anything that would make me think otherwise, but the credits which were posted by someone shortly after the release supposedly are:


Composed By, Written-By [Author] – Matt Clifford
Drums – Charlie Watts
Electric Guitar – Ronnie Wood
Engineer, Programmed By – Matt Clifford, Robbie Nelson
Guitar, Vocals – Mick Jagger
Keyboards – Matt Clifford
Mastered By – Stephen Marcussen
Mixed By – Tom Elmhirst
Mixed By [Assistant] – Brandon Bost
Other [Participant] – Pia Squillino
Producer – Matt Clifford, Mick Jagger

These credits are also listed on the Discogs site:

Gotta Getta Grip

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
Hairball
I never thought Ronnie and Charlie were on them initially either Ian, and I still can't hear anything that would make me think otherwise, but the credits which were posted by someone shortly after the release supposedly are:


Composed By, Written-By [Author] – Matt Clifford
Drums – Charlie Watts
Electric Guitar – Ronnie Wood
Engineer, Programmed By – Matt Clifford, Robbie Nelson
Guitar, Vocals – Mick Jagger
Keyboards – Matt Clifford
Mastered By – Stephen Marcussen
Mixed By – Tom Elmhirst
Mixed By [Assistant] – Brandon Bost
Other [Participant] – Pia Squillino
Producer – Matt Clifford, Mick Jagger

These credits are also listed on the Discogs site:

Gotta Getta Grip

____________________________________________


This is crazy (I'm stammered) .. Is this accurate?? Note Mick Tweeted he wrote a few songs and wanted to get them out to us .. here it says Matt Clifford (of all people?) wrote it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-23 07:45 by IanBillen.

The way I understood it (not based solely on those credits), Mick wrote all the lyrics and Matt co-wrote the music with Mick.
___________________________________________________________________

edit: Here's the credits originally posted in Getta Grip thread:

Gotta Get A Grip
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author, Keyboards, Co-Producer, Recording Engineer, Programming - Charlie Watts, Drums - Promopub, MusicPublisher - Brandon Bost, Assistant Mixer - Pia Squillino, Participant, AssociatedPerformer

And looks like identical credits for England lost.

England Lost
Stephen Marcussen, Mastering Engineer - MICK JAGGER, Composer, Author, Guitar, Co-Producer, Vocals, MainArtist - Copyright Control, MusicPublisher - Tom Elmhirst, Mixer - Robbie Nelson, Recording Engineer, Programming - Ronnie Wood, Electric Guitar - Matt Clifford, Composer, Author, Keyboards, Co-Producer, Recording Engineer, Programming - Charlie Watts, Drums - Promopub, MusicPublisher - Brandon Bost, Assistant Mixer - Pia Squillino, Participant, AssociatedPerformer


Don't know how accurate this all is, but there it is............

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-23 08:11 by Hairball.

Those credits were provided by Universal. Mick and Matt co-wrote and co-produced the songs. The only mystery to me is why Mick's assistant, Pia Squillino is listed as an "associated performer." It turns up that way when I play the tracks online so Universal registered the files as such. Very odd. I understand she did some programming along with Matt and the recording engineer (and some of the beats and guitar sounds are likely their work), but Universal lists the songs as if they're performed by Mick and Pia as the recording artists.

Has a Stones song ever been credited to Jagger-Richards-Clifford?

I think Mick comes up with the rough demos and Clifford whips them into shape, for which he rightfully asks for a credit. That's the process Keith probably objects to.

No. to any official Jagger/Richards/Clifford credits. Matt has had co-writing credits on several songs on GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY (he's credited as musical director on the album and arranged and co-produced most of the tracks) and he co-wrote Mick's duet with Brad Paisley.

He was also an arranger on "Continental Drift" on STEEL WHEELS and "Angel in My Heart" on WANDERING SPIRIT. He was the guiding force behind SYMPHONIC MUSIC OF THE ROLLING STONES in 1994. He played piano on Mick's version of "Streets of Berlin" for the film, BENT.

He's listed for pre-production on "Don't Stop," "Keys to Your Love," and "Stealing My Heart" on FORTY LICKS and pre-production and/or co-producer on "Streets of Love" and "Rain Fall Down" on A BIGGER BANG. He provided pre-production assistance for the reworked tracks for the reissued EXILE and SOME GIRLS.

He plays on all of the above as well as BLUE AND LONESOME, FLASHPOINT, SWEET SUMMER SUN, STICKY FINGERS LIVE FROM THE FONDA THEATER, and HAVANA MOON.

I would imagine Keith's objection is his limited role in the creative process when Mick presents a very polished demo he worked up with Matt with the intent the others overdub their parts.

"I'm still learning my lines, baby, since you've rewritten my part."

Quote
Rocky Dijon
No. to any official Jagger/Richards/Clifford credits. Matt has had co-writing credits on several songs on GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY (he's credited as musical director on the album and arranged and co-produced most of the tracks) and he co-wrote Mick's duet with Brad Paisley.

He was also an arranger on "Continental Drift" on STEEL WHEELS and "Angel in My Heart" on WANDERING SPIRIT. He was the guiding force behind SYMPHONIC MUSIC OF THE ROLLING STONES in 1994. He played piano on Mick's version of "Streets of Berlin" for the film, BENT.

He's listed for pre-production on "Don't Stop," "Keys to Your Love," and "Stealing My Heart" on FORTY LICKS and pre-production and/or co-producer on "Streets of Love" and "Rain Fall Down" on A BIGGER BANG. He provided pre-production assistance for the reworked tracks for the reissued EXILE and SOME GIRLS.

He plays on all of the above as well as BLUE AND LONESOME, FLASHPOINT, SWEET SUMMER SUN, STICKY FINGERS LIVE FROM THE FONDA THEATER, and HAVANA MOON.

I would imagine Keith's objection is his limited role in the creative process when Mick presents a very polished demo he worked up with Matt with the intent the others overdub their parts.

"I'm still learning my lines, baby, since you've rewritten my part."

Yep, taking all this into account, at closer look it seems like Matt is Mick's little helper, and not just since yesterday, despite the fact that after Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle, he seems to have disappeared from the "public eye" concerning Stones activities to a large extent. Maybe that's what Keith objects to.

Apart from that, I dunno, but the whole picture is still a bit grainy. As it looks, Keith obviously does not just want to add overdubs to quite developed Jagger/Clifford demos, instead aiming for more participation in the creative process itself, which is understandable from his point of view. At least that is what I read from this "recording basic tracks with the band"-claim, because that's the only way how he could add something substantial to the songs instead of just acting like a session player, doing overdubs, adding some "fairy dust". I recall someone (Ronnie?) mentioning a while ago that some of stuff would probably need to be re-recorded from scratch. But apart from the material Mick brought to the table - what's with Keith's stuff? Is Mick willing to have Keith his way on Keith's songs?

Is Keith still able to compose ?
I read on this board that the songs of his last studio album were quite old.
Just a question.
What can he propose in front of the songs of Mick ?

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-23 22:50 by powerage78.

Quite a few tracks on CROSSEYED HEART date back to 2000-2002 and some even went back to 1996. There has been discussion that at least one track was started even earlier. The thing is none of these were complete compositions in the sense that you're hearing genuine outtakes of untouched tracks that never surfaced or re-recordings of discarded songs. These were all works-in-progress that were transformed between 2011 and 2014 into finished compositions. If Keith truly had writer's block, he found his way back. It may be that Steve Jordan helped him re-gain his confidence in his creative abilities with CROSSEYED HEART.

Thanks RD.

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-23 23:59 by DandelionPowderman.

Quote
Hairball
I never thought Ronnie and Charlie were on them initially either Ian, and I still can't hear anything that would make me think otherwise, but the credits which were posted by someone shortly after the release supposedly are:


Composed By, Written-By [Author] – Matt Clifford
Drums – Charlie Watts
Electric Guitar – Ronnie Wood
Engineer, Programmed By – Matt Clifford, Robbie Nelson
Guitar, Vocals – Mick Jagger
Keyboards – Matt Clifford
Mastered By – Stephen Marcussen
Mixed By – Tom Elmhirst
Mixed By [Assistant] – Brandon Bost
Other [Participant] – Pia Squillino
Producer – Matt Clifford, Mick Jagger

These credits are also listed on the Discogs site:

Gotta Getta Grip

If you listen to the drumparts, they're clearly Charlie. Sampled yes, but still. Compare it to the album Jim Keltner did with Charlie, and you can hear the simillarities in drum grooves. Of course there's a lot of programming involved, but they've used Charlies patterns.

[www.reverbnation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-24 00:01 by audun-eg.

Quote
audun-eg

Quote
Hairball
I never thought Ronnie and Charlie were on them initially either Ian, and I still can't hear anything that would make me think otherwise, but the credits which were posted by someone shortly after the release supposedly are:


Composed By, Written-By [Author] – Matt Clifford
Drums – Charlie Watts
Electric Guitar – Ronnie Wood
Engineer, Programmed By – Matt Clifford, Robbie Nelson
Guitar, Vocals – Mick Jagger
Keyboards – Matt Clifford
Mastered By – Stephen Marcussen
Mixed By – Tom Elmhirst
Mixed By [Assistant] – Brandon Bost
Other [Participant] – Pia Squillino
Producer – Matt Clifford, Mick Jagger

These credits are also listed on the Discogs site:

Gotta Getta Grip

If you listen to the drumparts, they're clearly Charlie. Sampled yes, but still. Listen to the album Jim Keltner did, and you can hear the simillarities in drum grooves. Of course there's a lot of programming involved, but they've used Charlies patterns.

Not being a drummer myself, or an expert at analyzing individual drummers styles for that matter (although I can tell Ringo from John Bonham, or Charlie from Neil Peart, etc.), it's still difficult to say that this is "clearly" signature style Charlie. Before these credits were posted in the original thread, nobody had a clue Charlie played drums on this - same with Ronnie on guitar. Once they were posted a few days after release, there were certain people that claimed it's clearly them, but none of them said a thing prior to credits being posted. That said, I suppose someone like yourself can hear it easily, and once I learned Charlie's name was on the credits I guessed he might have played a simple pattern which was then sampled and programmed. Not sure that was even necessary as anybody could have played a simple pattern and then have it sampled/programmed. Same with Ronnie's guitar playing on the tune...nothing about it screams "Ronnie"!!! as it sounds quite standard and generic (but then again Ronnie doesn't really have much of a signature/unique sound anyways imo). Perhaps it was a matter of convenience to keep them since they might have been recorded when initial work began on Mick's demos...and then Keith bowed out.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-24 00:14 by Hairball.

I think Charlie is easier to tell than Ronnie. Without the credits, I would doubt it was Ronnie, but I also didn't think BLUE AND LONESOME sounded like Keith and Ronnie on a number of tracks. I can hear Charlie especially at the start of "England Lost" which is a bit like his drum beats at the start of "Suck on the Jugular." That said, I agree with Hairball in that until I read it was Charlie, I didn't expect it to be him. Part of the difficulty for me is that both tracks still sound like "noise" to my ears and it's more difficult to focus on them as songs. The guitars sound more like assaults. I see where U2 in the 1990s seems like an influence stylistically. Maybe I'm just old...

Quote
Rocky Dijon
I think Charlie is easier to tell than Ronnie. Without the credits, I would doubt it was Ronnie, but I also didn't think BLUE AND LONESOME sounded like Keith and Ronnie on a number of tracks. I can hear Charlie especially at the start of "England Lost" which is a bit like his drum beats at the start of "Suck on the Jugular." That said, I agree with Hairball in that until I read it was Charlie, I didn't expect it to be him. Part of the difficulty for me is that both tracks still sound like "noise" to my ears and it's more difficult to focus on them as songs. The guitars sound more like assaults. I see where U2 in the 1990s seems like an influence stylistically. Maybe I'm just old...

__________________________________


Shocked The other Stones (Ronnie & Charlie decided to be on it .. that is more evidence that this came directly from the The Stones sessions for the next / new RS album).


Very surprised Matt Clifford actually received writing credits........?? (<< like why now....?? lol)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-24 02:25 by IanBillen.

Ronnie and Charlie have played with Mick on solo demos before, but never on an official release. Maybe it's because this is a DIY single and not part of a solo album. As for Matt Clifford receiving songwriting credits, have a look at GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY. This collaboration is nothing new. If Mick doesn't write with Dave Stewart, he writes with Matt.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
No. to any official Jagger/Richards/Clifford credits. Matt has had co-writing credits on several songs on GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY (he's credited as musical director on the album and arranged and co-produced most of the tracks) and he co-wrote Mick's duet with Brad Paisley.

He was also an arranger on "Continental Drift" on STEEL WHEELS and "Angel in My Heart" on WANDERING SPIRIT. He was the guiding force behind SYMPHONIC MUSIC OF THE ROLLING STONES in 1994. He played piano on Mick's version of "Streets of Berlin" for the film, BENT.

He's listed for pre-production on "Don't Stop," "Keys to Your Love," and "Stealing My Heart" on FORTY LICKS and pre-production and/or co-producer on "Streets of Love" and "Rain Fall Down" on A BIGGER BANG. He provided pre-production assistance for the reworked tracks for the reissued EXILE and SOME GIRLS.

He plays on all of the above as well as BLUE AND LONESOME, FLASHPOINT, SWEET SUMMER SUN, STICKY FINGERS LIVE FROM THE FONDA THEATER, and HAVANA MOON.

I would imagine Keith's objection is his limited role in the creative process when Mick presents a very polished demo he worked up with Matt with the intent the others overdub their parts.

"I'm still learning my lines, baby, since you've rewritten my part."

“Pre-production.” Nice euphimism. Incidentally, or maybe not so incidentally, it was Matt Clifford who Mick Taylor went into the studio with to add overdubs to the Exile bonus disc. Keith didn’t know, and Mick Jagger wasn’t there. MT played stuff that wasn’t used.

It’s actually inconceivable to me that Keith has allowed as much material from Jagger/Clifford sessions to be used on Stones albums as he has. He’s really cut Mick a lot of slack to keep things going with the band. This is the hassle that started with Bridges to Babylon, where they “combined” material planned for solo albums. It’s further telling that the three songs from the Licks sessions that Rocky cites above were the three that were used, the Keith sung one aside. There were many other ideas, including the one that became “Trouble”, that they could easily have finished. This idea that Mick doesn’t want to hang about the studio waiting for Keith and the band to find inspiration, and prefers his own hermetically sealed demos, is at the root of why there have been so few Stones recordings the past couple of decades. Even on Bigger Bang, where a deal was reached for Mick and Keith to work together, the most solo type of Jagger songs have a Matt Clifford credit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-24 05:04 by TeddyB1018.

Some interesting nuggets there, Teddy. Thanks for sharing them.

Quote
TeddyB1018
Incidentally, or maybe not so incidentally, it was Matt Clifford who Mick Taylor went into the studio with to add overdubs to the Exile bonus disc. Keith didn’t know, and Mick Jagger wasn’t there. MT played stuff that wasn’t used.

Wait...I thought it was commonly known (except for Keith) that Mick Taylor was on Plundered My Soul?

"I’ve put Mick Taylor on Plundered My Soul, because he wasn’t on it. I wasn’t on it, he wasn’t on it, so obviously we were driving to the studio when that was done (laughs)... (I)t was very nice, it was just like the old days, you know, I just sat Mick down and we did it like half an hour..."
- Mick Jagger, 2010

(I)t was one of Mick's songs. It was among the outtakes that had to be finished. Actually, some of them were finished. But this particular song didn't have a vocal on it and it didn't have any lead guitar. It just had Keith Richards, Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts playing on it. So he asked me to step into the studio one afternoon, and I did some guitar in about three or four passes. I thought it turned out well.
- Mick Taylor, 2012


Mick Taylor told Gibson.com that it didn't take him very long to record his overdubbed guitar licks for this track. Said Taylor: "That was very quick. I mean, because the track was already there for me to overdub on, and Mick had already done a rough vocal, so it didn't actually sound too much like an outtake from Exile on Main St. Well, it did, except Mick had added vocals and back-up vocals and all it needed was some lead guitar, which I did… very quickly. I think it took about two hours for me to do about four or five different passes on the guitar."

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-24 05:06 by Hairball.

It was commonly known that MT played on Plundered My Doul, but the description above that Mick Jagger offers was not exactly accurate. Mick Taylor was asked to step into the studio, but it was with Matt Clifford he worked.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-24 05:08 by TeddyB1018.

OK - I was confused by your comment that "MT played stuff that wasn’t used..".

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
Hairball
OK - I was confused by your comment that "MT played stuff that wasn’t used..".

MT tried some things on other tracks that were not used.

Quote
TeddyB1018

Quote
Hairball
OK - I was confused by your comment that "MT played stuff that wasn’t used..".

MT tried some things on other tracks that were not used.

Interesting, I don't recall ever hearing that - I thought it was only Plundered he was brought in to play on.
Would be interesting to know which of the other tracks he might have worked on, and even more interesting to actually hear them.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
Hairball

Quote
TeddyB1018

Quote
Hairball
OK - I was confused by your comment that "MT played stuff that wasn’t used..".

MT tried some things on other tracks that were not used.

Interesting, I don't recall ever hearing that - I thought it was only Plundered he was brought in to play on.
Would be interesting to know which of the other tracks he might have worked on, and even more interesting to actually hear them.

I honestly don’t know the answer to that and haven’t heard them. It certainly would be interesting.

"Scarlet" which Don Was described as "a hit then and a hit now" that was reworked in 2010 but has thus far never seen the light of day is a good guess.