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VoodooLounge13
A very fascinating take on the whole thing, Doxa. Thank you for taking the time to write all that. I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks. It's all my pleasure. And I mean that: true labor of love, a leisure job and done for therapeutic reasons, while trying to write something totally different...

- Doxa

I continue the discussion from the last page.

Yeah, Witness - and thank you for giving a lot of good food for thought - there is no reason to doubt that they weren't 'inspired' during, say, Pathe Marconi era. It wasn't my purpose to downplay their post-EXILE efforts. And even though the material in many cases wasn't quite that legendary or memorable as their earlier efforts (of course, this is a subjective but a pretty common opinion) they were serious and put all their creative energy into making those albums.

My point was just to emphasize the routine they had then: a new album out every year or two. That of having inspiration or not was not that important: man's gotta do what man's gotta do. They, as we listeners from those days still might do, were following a pattern by the business: you need to release stuff if you want to continue being a major force in the business. Being as ambitious as they are, they naturally did that. For years there was no other option.

Usually there was an inspiration - that was what Mick and Keith did by habit and in which they were damn good: write songs - so making albums was business as normal for them, and most of their doings were based around those sessions when they did not tour. Some of their contemporaries, and even their audiences, seem to follow that pattern and still think in terms of them. Like thinking: yeah, making records is what an artist do, no matter if there actually is any function for it in terms of having something to really 'say' or actual interest for it. I cannot help that it sometimes feels like an emperor without clothes: all - both the aged artists way past from their prime and their aged audience who still buy albums - just acting like nothing has really changed. All form, no substance. All by habit with no real interest or passion. The Stones, probably the biggest band left from those days, do not take - be it good or bad - part in that play (until now, that is).

I think the problem many times is that we use concepts and criteria from the past, and not acknowledging or accepting how much the whole music business has changed along the years. Especially during this Century. What was a norm back then - and for many decades - is not that any longer. It could be painful, I know that.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-01 16:30 by Doxa.

Climbing a mountain is an impressive achievement ...sitting on top of one, not so much.

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donvis
Going back to the earlier stuff about Ronnie, I think we would all agree he is easily the best musician in the band at this point. I don’t think that can be argued.

For the core band? On guitar?

what about harp or vocals?

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Spud
Climbing a mountain is an impressive achievement ...sitting on top of one, not so much.

As someone who mountain climbs, I wholeheartedly disagree. There is nothing quite so humbling to one's own very existence as sitting on a mountaintop and looking out over the vastness of the world below you and realizing just how precious life is and how very small one's role is in the expansiveness of it all..........It's awe-inspiring, and I relish all the time that I have spent sitting on mountain tops thinking about that!!!

Addressed to your post immediately above, Doxa.

For long I thought that the "inspired phase" expired with UNDERCOVER. And I have gone on again and again about the reception to that album as a fatal moment for the studio career by the Stones. On several occasions repeated myself about the difficult context they were confronted by etc, etc. And then reforming from almost breakdown of the band, I have thought about "a professional turn", largely with their concerts in mind, when they started to recreate studio originals live for the big stadia. Studiowise on the other hand, apparently were not that enterprising. First with their not so rewarding STEEL WHEELS. Then, rather with their somewhat backward oriented album VOODOO LOUNGE seemed engaged in most of all finding their feet again in a recognizable way for the more conservative fanbase. You know what other understandings that existed of that period.

However, this was an occasion, I was later made to understand from a post by lem motlow with a quote from Mick Jagger in that article from the Rolling Stone magazine, that things studiowise might have been quite different. Because Mick deplored which songs were used for VOODOO LOUNGE. Telling that alternative unused songs comprised "groove songs, African influences and things like that". All signalling, if Mick had not been overruled, apparently by the producer and one band member in unison, that the album represented a missed opportunity. That has made me wonder whether Rolling Stones studio development at that crossroads could have been quite different. Maybe even, my romantic phantasy perhaps, with a enlivening of their "inspired phase" during the completely new assumptions. This I have wondered about, maybe exaggerating the possibilities that were not taken. Wondering what studio development that might have followed. Obviously dependent on the attitudes with the buying public. But with a somewhat more easily approachable studio album than UNDERCOVER was at its time, what might have happened with new studio work during the '90's?

[www.youtube.com]

After the excitement of the recent confirmation of Paul McCartney guesting on the new album, hoping for some more official statements, tweets, snippets, etc. soon...
Maybe more guests to be announced, or a quick snippet posted by Mick on twiiter, or even an actual comment from one of the band members themselves.


"Don't know where the new album is now, do you"? - Charlie Watts, 2018

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

While I understand that GHS is not as monumentally powerful an album as the revered Big 4, I have always felt that it was tremendously undervalued, underrated, and under-appreciated. For me, it is the 3rd best album they've ever made!!!! Reinforced even more so by the Super Deluxe that came out, as I really love the Johns' mixed tracks!!!

For me, I think the first misstep in their career was IORR, an album I rarely come back to. I do wholeheartedly enjoy the diversity of B&B, and it holds a special place for me, because it came out the year I was born. I have always thought it was a very groovy album, and hearing the songs live on El Mo last year, just reiterated that same sentiment to me. Another underrated album.

I used to love Some Girls far more than I do these days, and for me it just hasn't aged as well, possessing two of my least favorite Stones songs in Shattered and Beast of Burden, and the allllllllll too boring live Miss You, which has now impacted my ability to listen to the studio track. So I have rested from playing this one for a long while, and even though there are some true gems on here - Far Away Eyes, BTMMR, Imagination - I personally think it's overrated.....BUT I recognize that most think it their last masterpiece, so I bear that in mind here...

LYL was just such a bad live album, I've scratched my head for years about why it was released. The sound is muddy, the performances not that great. For me, it's a huge miss.

Emotional Rescue in my mind continues to the back slide. The dance vibes are all over that album and while it, too, has some true gems - Let Me Go, She's So Cold - I think it was strike two.

Along came TY with its mix of Rock and Ballads, and the colossal hit of SMU, and BOOM! Just like that the boys were back!! At the time I was discovering all these past albums, I was clueless to this album having been cobbled together from leftovers. I just thought it was a fantastic album. On par with the Big 4.5 (indulge me - GHS really belongs in that grouping!). There's not a clunker on it.

But then as a band, IMHO, they took 4 steps back with Undercover and once again were on the verge of obscurity if you will, due to the change in music and just a really bad album. There's some great tunes on here - Wanna Hold You, Tie You Up, Must Be Hell - but overall, I find it a rather forgettable album.

For all the hatred hurled at it, I love DW and I felt that it was a step back in the right direction. It has an edge, a rawness, an angry swagger that was lacking on Undercover and ER. To me, it feels more like the rebellious band that I think is synonymous with The Rolling Stones. The guitars are gritty, the lyrics are biting. I had no idea the songs were directed at the 2 main players. I just thought it was a great return to form. I still do. If I had to choose, I think I'd put it the 2nd best album they released in the 80's, after TY.

SW is a solid effort, and while some on here have found criticism with the shmultzy lyrics on some of the songs, they don't bother me. AHYS is a lost cousin to Ruby Tuesday, and IMO holds it own alongside that song - it IS that good!!!! By any other band, the song would have been a #1 smash hit for weeks!!!! Mixed Emotions was great as a 'reunion' single and really got the fans back - hell it's the song that got me into them. I remember watching the video every week and following its chart performance on the MTV countdown each Saturday. Both Keef numbers are great, as is Continental Drift. The one thing that hampers this album is the tinny production sound, and it just has not aged well as a result, but still I think they continued in the right direction with this effort. One step forward, but still not back to their roots if you will....

Which they found wholeheartedly on Voodoo Lounge, an absolute friggin rock and roll masterpiece!!!!! Swagger, Sex, Innuendos, Political Melodies, and a smokey-voiced dark jazz club ending (vinyl and cassette) in Thru & Thru, one of my Top 10 favorite Stones songs - in fact, I absolutely LOVE the 1-2 punch of Baby Break It Down followed by T&T. I wore out that cassette in college, commuting back and forth for 4.5 years to UConn. FINALLY, the boys had found their legs, swagger, Rock Gods status again!!!

Upon its release, I must admit I was a bit disappointed with B2B, and I listened to it a few times, but the diversity of it left me somewhat wanting more. However, the more I listened to it, the more I really grew to love it, and it, too, is a modern day classic - a true blend of Mick and Keef, stylistically. Some real rockers, with some dance/experimental stuff. They pushed themselves into new territory, challenged themselves to make something a bit different. Compromised on song choices, and it worked. A Some Girls for the new generation!! And by that I mean that it's very much a NY album for the 90's, whilst SG was for the 70's.

ABB I devoured. 8 looooooooooooooooooooooong years had passed since last we'd had a new album, and I listened to that thing NONSTOP for 6 friggin months straight! ALLLLLLLLLLLL DAY, Every Damn Day!!!! I couldn't get enough of it. It was an album done by an older, wiser group of rockstars - one that had just beaten cancer. I thought it a valiant effort, and yes, with a couple of clunkers, but I was willing to overlook the far misses (Sweet NeoCon) and the over-enunciated ridiculousness (SOL) to have an overall solid album, though to be fair not quite on par with VL and B2B.

As someone who got into the band much later than a lot on here, I think my perspective is truly unique. And after seeing them in concert and going back to find other albums in their catalog, I looked at each album on its own merits, not based on what came before it, because I skipped all around. As of October '97, when I saw them live for the first time, I only owned SW, Flashpoint, VL, Stripped, The London Years, and IORR, which was the weakest by far to me out of those. I loved the sound of Flashpoint, and to this day, it's one of my favorite live albums of theirs. After Foxboro, I started doing my research, spending time in record stores, and I chose albums to buy based on how many songs on it I thought I knew. Sticky was the first purchase, because they'd played several off of that, and I was blown away. Let It Bleed might have been next. Or maybe Flowers, I'm really not sure. But my point is, I jumped around. I listened to each album as something new to discover, not as the latest release by The Rolling Stones, and my God it sucks compared to.......

Some I liked more than others. Some I really loved. Exile I couldn't understand why it was held so high - for YEARS!!!! After I'd gotten all the albums and put them in chronological order, I saw that they had some ups and downs just like most bands. No one can stay on top forever, but for me, the downward trajectory started with IORR, and while they had some positive blips along the way (SG I'll recognize for its commercial success, TY), it really continued until the steel cage match of DW. And from there onward, they have moved toward the sound that is, The Rolling Stones, while still experimenting and pushing the limits of what a rock song is (Out Of Control) and baiting us to come along with them.

LIAGT was great - a very positive affirmation of what might be forthcoming. There have been some really great songs released on the Super Deluxes - even with new vocals over old leftovers, but Criss Cross is a criminally incredible song that was just wallowing away in a dusty box somewhere!!!!

Am I expecting another Voodoo? No. And honestly, I wouldn't want one. I have that album. At this stage, I am hoping and wishing and praying for a varied, eclectic collection - a lil bit of this, a lil bit of that. Some country, a bit of blues/soul with a touch of gospel, a funky dance track, a great rocking number. And most importantly, all recorded loosely, not forced, not contrived. A varied collection along the lines of B2B. Really, what would be great for these Old Gods to go out with, is a collection of new songs that throws Exile and B2B into a blender and comes out with something that sounds like a modern version of those two. One final artistic statement by a band that laid the ground work for so many, and something that is not just a mic drop, but that causes all other artists' mouths to gape open and say, Holy Fk, have you HEARD the new Stones album?!?!?!!? My God, I had no idea they had it in them!!!!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-01 20:59 by VoodooLounge13.

In response to VoodooLounge13's comment, "And most importantly, all recorded loosely, not forced, not contrived."

Agree 100%!

Great post! Great to hear a different perspective and from the “modern” era!

Completely agree as well about how the new album might sound… For me, a more eclectic the better.

Always interesting to read others' opinions.

Re: Love You Live... I absolutely LOVE this album to death, always have, its loose, very different live renditions, and the expanded edition was an absolute dream a number of years back.

Looking ahead to the next release... I just hope for some fun music that is not overproduced or contrived, just an album of music that all the musicians enjoy making. Not an effort at relevance, or re-creating old magic, just a set of songs by the older Rolling Stones.

I get very excited at every new Stones release, even if ultimately most of the latter day albums don't get a lot of airplay in my world these days. But I'd love the next release to out-shine the last few. Very much looking forward to it, whenever it comes.

VoodooLounge13:

You were born in 1976 and by the time TY was released you were discovering the older albums too ?
Since TY was released in 1981 you were 4 or 5 years old ?
I don't know but on that age exploring older albums sounds very incredible.

I just want to show that i'm amazed ! At that age i was far from discovering albums

@Doxa
It's always interesting to read everyone's opinions, even those you don't share, however I wonder....if the inspired phase ended some time ago for you, why are you so interested in this 3d? It's quite curious.
I think instead that the most creative phase of the Stones ends with Let It Bleed, then they have continued to make good albums to this day. There isn't a bad album in their discography, some are better than others.
It is the expectations of the fans that have changed, in a historical period where it is disposable.
Voodoo Lounge was a great album, better than many 70's albums, Bridges to Babylon was a good attempt at a different sound, A Bigger Bang is the quintessential Mick and Keith album.
It is us and our expectations that have changed.

Great Reviews by Doxa and VoodooLounge13.

I agree with VoodooLounge13 that DW is actually a very good album. Like you say it has an edge, a rawness and swagger. ER has always sounded great as a summer record, and VL is an album I still like when playing the record.
Bridges is not as coherant as VL but is a great record nonetheless, ABB is not so good to me as the records before.

Testify, I don't quite follow you here, but to the question why I am interested - well, I am interested in whatever related to The Rolling Stones, and I am dying to hear the new album (like I guess everyone here). I don't think they have ever released an album that I think it is a bad one. I rate them differently, but I love all of them all. They all are important and significiant in this great story of the greatest rock and roll band of the world. With all ups and downs. A fascinating career, fascinating music, a fascinating band.

What I have tried to do here above has been just trying to make some sense of their doings - and non-doings (and tried to avoid my own personal opinion of the quality of their releases). Why they have released albums and why, for example, so rarely these days. The term 'inspiration' is not the one I would use here to describe their motivation behind their acts. I am sure every time they end up releasing something there is some sort of inspiration behind. And now, like I have tried argue, for the first time in their career they do it simply for the sake of art itself.

- Doxa



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-01 23:26 by Doxa.

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ProfessorWolf
hail to the king!

doxa very well said

and to the ronnie haters

i don't understand why people seem to disregard him and minimalize so much his importance in the band for the last half a century

RONNIE WOOD IS A ROLLING STONE!

he is not a sideman or a hired gun he is 100% a member of the band and should be given the respect he deserves

and he is and always was a great musician right from the beginning





compare that version by the birds with a teenage ronnie with the rather anemic version by the who





ronnie isn't lucky to be in the stones

the stones are lucky to have ronnie

Well said indeed!!!!

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rolling1us
VoodooLounge13:

You were born in 1976 and by the time TY was released you were discovering the older albums too ?
Since TY was released in 1981 you were 4 or 5 years old ?
I don't know but on that age exploring older albums sounds very incredible.

I just want to show that i'm amazed ! At that age i was far from discovering albums

It was in 1997 after seeing them live finally that I went back thru their catalog. I listed out the albums that I had at the time of seeing them. They were a band I liked but far from the band with whom I’ve become a bit obsessed like many of us. They were just another band to me until the lights went out that fateful night. Imagine going to a show having never heard Gimme Shelter or Rambler, Tumbling Dice or Miss You, let alone obscure stuff like Sister Morphine and Star Star. That was my first experience.

Let it Bleed was my first Stones album. It was a lot darker (Midnight Rambler still is) than what I listened to up to that point. I was a big Beatles fan. I think Ya Yas is the first album where things really clicked, and I was hooked.

Then a girl lent me all her early Stones albums. I only knew Brian Jones from photos and hearing he died. (The first rock star in my generation to die). I discovered that was a whole different Rolling Stones than the one I was listening to in the early 70s. And if you started listening in 1978 you would have encountered a totally different Stones.

Younger fans hear things the Stones used to do, they think are new....

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Hairball
After the excitement of the recent confirmation of Paul McCartney guesting on the new album, hoping for some more official statements, tweets, snippets, etc. soon...
Maybe more guests to be announced, or a quick snippet posted by Mick on twiiter, or even an actual comment from one of the band members themselves.


"Don't know where the new album is now, do you"? - Charlie Watts, 2018

I just hope it will be Stones and selected guests rather than Guests and selected Stones ...

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doitywoik

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Hairball
After the excitement of the recent confirmation of Paul McCartney guesting on the new album, hoping for some more official statements, tweets, snippets, etc. soon...
Maybe more guests to be announced, or a quick snippet posted by Mick on twiiter, or even an actual comment from one of the band members themselves.


"Don't know where the new album is now, do you"? - Charlie Watts, 2018

I just hope it will be Stones and selected guests rather than Guests and selected Stones ...

Yes agreed, and one or two (or even a few) more select guests of similar vintage and calibur as the Stones could possibly be great.
Aside from Macca, a guest spot from Pete Townshend would be more than welcome imo. And/or Jimmy Page. And/or Eric Clapton (again). And/or Bob Dylan.
There's quite a few other possible greats of similar stature to add to the mix, but I would think less is more. As it stands the only confirmation is Macca.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-02 20:13 by Hairball.

Could do without Clapton. Don't really feel he adds anything. Honestly, would hope for minimal outside influences unless they're to add parts, as in the rumored bass overdubs that Macca added. A sax here, some piano there. If we're gonna bring in any guest guitarist............well, do I really need to type it out???

Yep ...... type it out



ROCKMAN

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VoodooLounge13
Could do without Clapton. Don't really feel he adds anything. Honestly, would hope for minimal outside influences unless they're to add parts, as in the rumored bass overdubs that Macca added. A sax here, some piano there. If we're gonna bring in any guest guitarist............well, do I really need to type it out???

Good god I hope you're not talking about Mick Taylor. His talents eroded a long time ago.

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24FPS

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VoodooLounge13
Could do without Clapton. Don't really feel he adds anything. Honestly, would hope for minimal outside influences unless they're to add parts, as in the rumored bass overdubs that Macca added. A sax here, some piano there. If we're gonna bring in any guest guitarist............well, do I really need to type it out???

Good god I hope you're not talking about Mick Taylor. His talents eroded a long time ago.

I’ll take a depleted MT over Clapton at his “prime” all day every day. Most on here love Plundered My Soul. Myself I was a bit underwhelmed by it, but my opinion aside, if most love it wouldn’t you want more MT licks on the final installment!?!?? Hell yeah!!!

I believe it'd be a good idea for the new album to conclude with a hidden track of Charlie jamming, talking, rehearsing or whatever.

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VoodooLounge13

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rolling1us
VoodooLounge13:

You were born in 1976 and by the time TY was released you were discovering the older albums too ?
Since TY was released in 1981 you were 4 or 5 years old ?
I don't know but on that age exploring older albums sounds very incredible.

I just want to show that i'm amazed ! At that age i was far from discovering albums

It was in 1997 after seeing them live finally that I went back thru their catalog. I listed out the albums that I had at the time of seeing them. They were a band I liked but far from the band with whom I’ve become a bit obsessed like many of us. They were just another band to me until the lights went out that fateful night. Imagine going to a show having never heard Gimme Shelter or Rambler, Tumbling Dice or Miss You, let alone obscure stuff like Sister Morphine and Star Star. That was my first experience.

I am with you, bro ! Great way to get educated by the Greatest Band in the World. Was just wondering, that's all

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VoodooLounge13

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Spud
Climbing a mountain is an impressive achievement ...sitting on top of one, not so much.

As someone who mountain climbs, I wholeheartedly disagree. There is nothing quite so humbling to one's own very existence as sitting on a mountaintop and looking out over the vastness of the world below you and realizing just how precious life is and how very small one's role is in the expansiveness of it all..........It's awe-inspiring, and I relish all the time that I have spent sitting on mountain tops thinking about that!!!

Quite so ...but it's the perception of others I'm talking about .

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VoodooLounge13

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24FPS

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VoodooLounge13
Could do without Clapton. Don't really feel he adds anything. Honestly, would hope for minimal outside influences unless they're to add parts, as in the rumored bass overdubs that Macca added. A sax here, some piano there. If we're gonna bring in any guest guitarist............well, do I really need to type it out???

Good god I hope you're not talking about Mick Taylor. His talents eroded a long time ago.

I’ll take a depleted MT over Clapton at his “prime” all day every day. Most on here love Plundered My Soul. Myself I was a bit underwhelmed by it, but my opinion aside, if most love it wouldn’t you want more MT licks on the final installment!?!?? Hell yeah!!!

I thought Clapton's two cuts on Blue & Lonesome were outstanding, especially on Everybody Knows About My Good Thing. When was the last time MT did anything new on record?

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VoodooLounge13

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24FPS

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VoodooLounge13
Could do without Clapton. Don't really feel he adds anything. Honestly, would hope for minimal outside influences unless they're to add parts, as in the rumored bass overdubs that Macca added. A sax here, some piano there. If we're gonna bring in any guest guitarist............well, do I really need to type it out???

Good god I hope you're not talking about Mick Taylor. His talents eroded a long time ago.

I’ll take a depleted MT over Clapton at his “prime” all day every day. Most on here love Plundered My Soul. Myself I was a bit underwhelmed by it, but my opinion aside, if most love it wouldn’t you want more MT licks on the final installment!?!?? Hell yeah!!!

For their "final installment" I'd much prefer a Brian lick from the vaults because after all, it was him who started the whole thing.