Tell Me :
Talk
As we now know, the Blue and Lonesome covers album was somewhat of a success - even winning a Grammy - which I suppose gave Keith the leverage with the direction of the new album he was hoping for.
So what does Mick do? He quickly poops out Getta Grip/England Lost to the dismay of Keith and most Stones fans - leaving almost everyone asking "so where's the new Stones album for crying out loud"?
Clearly they're at a stalemate and have been for many years, and the only common ground they have left is playing live and digging up treasures from the past such as the upcoming GHS reissue which I'm really looking forward to.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Creating itself is a process of continuous rejection.
………………………………...…...… Francis Bacon
ROCKMAN
I don’t know if this hypothetical new album will ever be released.
I think there are real differences about the choice of the songs to publish among the stuff recorded (30/40 basic tracks?)
I think the bigger involvement in Exile, might not just be the Exile-tracks, but also the getting an idea of next steps of possible releases of the vault material. If I remember correctly, "Scarlett" was already mentioned as forthcoming at the time of the Exile-release (by Don Wass).
Thanks KRiffhard!
Ha, this brings up memories! LOL
You're right, the interview was done in the course of promoting LIFE. And with LIFE happening, also Todger-Gate happened… I had totally forgotten about that. This must also be what Ronnie refers to in the quote in your time line.
Realism - Keith bullshitting (speaking out his wishful thinking) maybe in so far as he was was barely able to play around that time. I remember some videos that were plainly painful to watch. In retrospect it seems like Mick jumped at the chance and did Superheavy – another thing I had blocked out. LOL I also recall an interview with Steve Jordan (I think it was) where he described how had to lure Keith slowly and cautiously back towards recording and how Crosseyed Heart came together only over many years.
(I also remember my feelings of relief when they came to my town in 2014 that he had enough of his chops back to make it through the show without major f*ck-ups.)
Mick certainly also had a new Stones album in mind around that time – or at least didn't fully exclude the idea. I remember reports (interviews?) that Mick and Charlie recorded 40 demos in those duo sessions (I think that was way before the figure of 40 in the Uncut interview but I may err). When there was talk years later about Mick's 30 (or some such number) demos I always thought these were the demos he had recorded with Charlie back then. (There was even a video where you saw the two of them checking out the studio.) In retrospect, again, Mick's quote "I have been writing a lot for the Stones. I mean, when I write, I go, Yeah, that could be a good Stones tune or, That's not really going to work for that" sounds a bit like he wanted to be prepared for a new Stones album as well as for another Solo album (or other side project), perhaps depending on how Todger-Gate would develop. Recording two new songs for GRRRMPF was perhaps the lowest common denominator at the time of the sessions.
All in all the situation in those years – as it comes across in Doxa's timeline – has a flavour of one boy pissing another boy off, then being pissed off himself that the other boy is pissed off and doesn't want to play with him, and while the other boy gets ready to play on goes for another boy … and so on … they might in fact get younger everyday, really …
For much of the past twenty years, Mick has found ways of conveying he's the one writing most of the material, not Keith. Mick will not spend the time with Keith slowly developing new material in the studio by jamming. Neither will Charlie and apparently not Ronnie either. In Charlie's case, doing so would likely be hard on him physically at this point. Both Mick and Keith have made that clear.
Mick is fine with Keith adding new ideas to the demos he works up with Matt Clifford, but he's impatient with how long it's taken Keith to do so this time around (a message Pete Townshend delivered to the press). For his part, Keith called that process "boring" and likened it to "shop class."
Mick's recent "don't hold your breath" is consistent with Don Was and Ronnie's remarks about the progress on the album. Not finishing the album or refusing to play on tracks is Keith's only real strength. What Keith wants is to write songs with Mick as he's said many times. It appears the reality is Keith is welcome to add musical ideas to what Mick has and if Keith brings a finished song to the table, Mick will consider it. This really isn't new apart from the fact that from 2002 to 2012, Keith was a lot more flexible. These past four years, he's put his foot down and let Mick release tracks cut with Ronnie and Charlie as solo singles.
Clearly, Keith is not feeling inspired by what he hears or he wouldn't disparage the creative process as "boring." Matt Clifford's publishing deal means he's not content to take a pre-production credit only this time, he wants songwriting credit if he writes a Stones song with Mick. If Mick wasn't okay with that, Matt wouldn't still be working with them. Mick clearly would prefer if Keith contributed and if not, if Keith would just play where and what he's told. If Mick truly was calling all the shots, we would have had the album in 2017 or 2018 or 2019. Keith doesn't want another "Don't Stop" or "Doom and Gloom" or "Streets of Love" or "Rain Fall Down" where he just does what he's told for the sake of product.
Keith has slowly been making progress cutting back on drinking, giving up smoking, all the while fighting against time. The real question is can a relatively sober Keith who previously did a great deal to damage relations not only with Mick but with the rest of the band come through and connect with what Mick is writing "these days" (largely tinkering with material written within the past nine years) and finally give us a new Stones album while the band is still a going concern.
It is a complex situation where they're both at fault. Bear all of that in mind next time Keith promises the album by Christmas or says they'll finish it right after the tour.
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround. When the three of them — Mick, Keith, Steve — appeared in a photo together at Germano Studios in 2018, I thought that was a great sign that progress was being made.
Steve, to his great credit, still has the patience to sit through, shape, and sharpen Keith’s ideas. Again, though, this was two years ago. We are well past the point where this should *still* be a problem.
Since Mick has told us not to hold our breath, we know a little more than nothing. But not much more!
Do you know that for a fact? It could also have been for practical reasons - as in they had access to a studio and a good engineer they knew well, when both were in town.
IMO – assuming you don't know more than me - the info we have is not enough to make such conclusions as you and Rocky did.
There might be many reasons. Not saying you're wrong, though.
In one interview around the time of the release of Main Offender (or so, at any rate with respect to the Winos) Keith said he is writing with Steve Jordan because he doesn't like to write alone but prefers to have a partner to exchange ideas with. So it wouldn't be surprising if things went similarly with Crosseyed heart, all the more in view of the fact (?) that Steve Jordan kind of mildly pushed Keith to record a song every once in a while (at least, SJ said so). In this light also Keith's statements that he would like to work on new stuff together with Mick makes good sense. (That Mick is not fond of the idea of watching Keith strumming the same chord for hours while waiting for inspiration or the like is another story.)
I guess we all know that we know (next to) nothing, and that public statements by the Stones are always to some extent also "political" statements and therefore to be taken with some caution.
But where does that story come from. It's most likely true, but as far as I know it's never been confirmed by Mick.
Their conflicts in the past have been (according to the both of them) about the mixing, the musical direction and touring.
It's as close to a confirmed fact as I can get without speaking to the principals themselves.
But where does that story come from. It's most likely true, but as far as I know it's never been confirmed by Mick.[/quote]
First, I have to say sorry. There should have been a "perhaps" in that sentence that I evidently thought but didn't type. This is of course primarily my own speculation but it draws on articles/reports over the decades describing Keith endlessly strumming the same riff or the like. Here's something in that vein from an interview with Waddy Wachtel:
"One day he was standing there, playing a chord and switching the toggle switch back and forth on his guitar, and I was watching him. He did it over and over again. There are limits to how much you can invade someone’s space, but I went, What are you doing? He said, [Keith voice] ‘I was just figuring out which one’s my sound.’"
[www.mojo4music.com]
There are also interviews with Mick from which it transpires that he doesn't like to waste time but I don't have a quote handy. Also, think of the Paris 2002 sessions where Keith is trying to remember the (or an) intro to one of the songs, and after a minute or so Mick is telling him that he can also search the tapes later (or something to that effect).
I'm pretty sure Rockman has a whole library of fitting quotes.
The puzzling thing is that earlier Keith used to brag how many songs he actually wrote for albums. Like, I remember an interview (or was it from a book?) were he claimed to have written 130 songs just for Voodoo Lounge. In view of this it is a little strange that he now mocks Mick for being prolific while admitting that he himself has only three new songs, and it doesn't come as a surprise that people are wondering what happened to his creative spark.
I'm wondering sometimes if in earlier times his creativity wasn't also correlated with his intake. With most intake options gone or radically reduced (if we are to believe him) a loss in drive would seem quite plausible then.
Good point.
I would be more than "Happy" to help Keith work up a few new songs. 1-800-ELL-MMOO
"No Anchovies, Please"
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Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: March 9, 2020 09:26
Quote
KRiffhardQuote
doitywoikQuote
GasLightStreet
There's still ZERO proof that they've recorded anything new.
Mick: "… and the Stones have recorded some really nice things. But we haven’t finished the album yet"
[www.reuters.com]
Not sure if this counts as proof but it is as much confirmation that something has been recorded and things are in some sort of progress as you can get. And if we are to believe Mick, they even recorded a few things that are fine with him.
When Mick says, "I’ve been writing a lot, and I’ve done a load of demos" this almost sounds like he wants to make it clear that he is delivering his dues. Actually, it makes it sound like he is also (or still?) thinking of the album as an album by Mick Jagger And His Rolling Stones. I'm wondering if one should notice that he didn't say something like "and Keith also brought in some great tunes". But honestly speaking, I can't remember if there has ever been a situation before where they spoke (or were asked) in interviews about an album in progress while the recording of the album was still in progress.
While trying to find the exact quote of Keith's statement about Mick's prolificacy (and his own three dynamite riffs) I stumbled on this interview from 2010 (Hollywood Reporter):
While Richards expects the Rolling Stones to tour in 2011, he says that the group may hit the studio before that. "After these many years working together, we have a lot of unfinished stuff to work on that we had to leave off the last album," says Richards. "And knowing Mick, as I do, he's a very prolific writer. And I have ideas, and we'll put them together in December or January, something like that ... We're looking forward to working."
[www.hollywoodreporter.com]
This must have been the session(s?) which in the end only spawned a meagre two songs (D&G, OMS). Keith doesn't say the word "album" but it sounds like he was clearly thinking of more than just a single. Now considering that also Mick said the Stones should have released more new music, one only wonders what the hell has gone wrong all these years.
From Uncut, nov. 2016
Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.
“Being prolific dont mean shit“, replies Richards.
“I‘ve got three songs and they‘re dynamite. I don‘t want to make any decisions about this until this record comes out, because I think it might radically change Mick‘s attitude; it might change mine“.
“I want to see the fallout from this record before I decide wheteher I want to record 40 of Mick‘s songs or whether he wants to sit down with me and record some songs together. That‘s my thing. That‘s my ball there. I‘ve always got a few songs on the back burner and so does Mick - he writes a lot. I don‘t. I tend to concentrate on two or three really interesting riffs or ideas, rather than being prolific“.
[www.uncut.co.uk]
As we now know, the Blue and Lonesome covers album was somewhat of a success - even winning a Grammy - which I suppose gave Keith the leverage with the direction of the new album he was hoping for.
So what does Mick do? He quickly poops out Getta Grip/England Lost to the dismay of Keith and most Stones fans - leaving almost everyone asking "so where's the new Stones album for crying out loud"?
Clearly they're at a stalemate and have been for many years, and the only common ground they have left is playing live and digging up treasures from the past such as the upcoming GHS reissue which I'm really looking forward to.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: March 9, 2020 10:19
Creating itself is a process of continuous rejection.
………………………………...…...… Francis Bacon
ROCKMAN
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: March 9, 2020 11:27
Inspired by that Keith interview from 2010 I discussed above I checked the always useful timeisonourside.com chronicle from 2011.
The original quote, from October 2010, was:
While Richards expects the Rolling Stones to tour in 2011, he says that the group may hit the studio before that. "After these many years working together, we have a lot of unfinished stuff to work on that we had to leave off the last album," says Richards. "And knowing Mick, as I do, he's a very prolific writer. And I have ideas, and we'll put them together in December or January, something like that ... We're looking forward to working."
So Keith wanted him and Mick to start making a new Stones album around December2010/January2011. What did happen?
No matter what LIFE did, Mick seemingly was rather involved in SuperHeavy project. The sessions had started years earlier, but the last sessions he did with Dave Stewart took place in late February. The album was to be released in September.
So was it that Mick's solo project was, once again, stand in the way for a new Stones album? Well, seemingly Keith didn't know anything about the whole project. In June Keith simply stated: "I haven't heard anything about it. I just wish him luck."
Keith himself started the sessions with Jordan for CROSSEYED HEART in Mid April. (He also sometimes during the year confessed: "I hardly played at all for two years. I'm sort of basically recovering from the book, and this is my therapy at the moment. In the process of doing it, my chops are coming back".)
Later in the year Mick was involved in SOME GIRLS bonus album material in August (Keith did his overdubs in September). This seemingly wasn't such a big project as the EXILE one - something, according to MIck, "he lived six months".
But what is interesting that in September - just after doing the SOME GIRLS stuff and around the time SUPERHEAVY was released - he stated:
I have been writing a lot for the Stones. I mean, when I write, I go, Yeah, that could be a good Stones tune or, That's not really going to work for that.
I did some sessions with Charlie recently where I just played some songs I'd written, and of course I wrote more when he was there. I'd start making them up, so that was good fun, so we had a really good time doing that.
(I've been) writing loads of these 12-bar blues songs, so I'm looking forward to doing something more in that vein. But then last night, I wrote a song and went straight from my version of John Lee Hooker into writing sort of pop songs, so I don't really know.
That sounded like Mick, after all, had a Stones relaese in his mind. How serious that was - hard to know. But Charlie was there, if that means anything (Interestingly when Charlie years later talked about 'what happened to that album' and of a series of sessions, might he also had that particular session in his mind?).
But then Keith declared two months later (in November):
I'm not writing for (the Stones) right now. I'm cutting my own stuff with Steve Jordan. There's no point in writing for the Stones until I know that Mick Jagger's in. He could have every song I've ever written. They're all for him. If he doesn't like them - or if he poo-poos them - I take them somewhere else.
Damn those two last quotes tell rather clearly that the Glimmer Twins weren't much in speaking terms... I think this quote by Ronnie from November is a rather telling here what was going on:
I think there's a healing process waiting to take place. I think it's happening now as we speak, but it has to be resolved. Something has to be resolved there. They have to come to terms with going on a working basis, which Charlie and I will help make happen. Wish me luck.
- Doxa
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-09 12:14 by Doxa.
The original quote, from October 2010, was:
While Richards expects the Rolling Stones to tour in 2011, he says that the group may hit the studio before that. "After these many years working together, we have a lot of unfinished stuff to work on that we had to leave off the last album," says Richards. "And knowing Mick, as I do, he's a very prolific writer. And I have ideas, and we'll put them together in December or January, something like that ... We're looking forward to working."
So Keith wanted him and Mick to start making a new Stones album around December2010/January2011. What did happen?
No matter what LIFE did, Mick seemingly was rather involved in SuperHeavy project. The sessions had started years earlier, but the last sessions he did with Dave Stewart took place in late February. The album was to be released in September.
So was it that Mick's solo project was, once again, stand in the way for a new Stones album? Well, seemingly Keith didn't know anything about the whole project. In June Keith simply stated: "I haven't heard anything about it. I just wish him luck."
Keith himself started the sessions with Jordan for CROSSEYED HEART in Mid April. (He also sometimes during the year confessed: "I hardly played at all for two years. I'm sort of basically recovering from the book, and this is my therapy at the moment. In the process of doing it, my chops are coming back".)
Later in the year Mick was involved in SOME GIRLS bonus album material in August (Keith did his overdubs in September). This seemingly wasn't such a big project as the EXILE one - something, according to MIck, "he lived six months".
But what is interesting that in September - just after doing the SOME GIRLS stuff and around the time SUPERHEAVY was released - he stated:
I have been writing a lot for the Stones. I mean, when I write, I go, Yeah, that could be a good Stones tune or, That's not really going to work for that.
I did some sessions with Charlie recently where I just played some songs I'd written, and of course I wrote more when he was there. I'd start making them up, so that was good fun, so we had a really good time doing that.
(I've been) writing loads of these 12-bar blues songs, so I'm looking forward to doing something more in that vein. But then last night, I wrote a song and went straight from my version of John Lee Hooker into writing sort of pop songs, so I don't really know.
That sounded like Mick, after all, had a Stones relaese in his mind. How serious that was - hard to know. But Charlie was there, if that means anything (Interestingly when Charlie years later talked about 'what happened to that album' and of a series of sessions, might he also had that particular session in his mind?).
But then Keith declared two months later (in November):
I'm not writing for (the Stones) right now. I'm cutting my own stuff with Steve Jordan. There's no point in writing for the Stones until I know that Mick Jagger's in. He could have every song I've ever written. They're all for him. If he doesn't like them - or if he poo-poos them - I take them somewhere else.
Damn those two last quotes tell rather clearly that the Glimmer Twins weren't much in speaking terms... I think this quote by Ronnie from November is a rather telling here what was going on:
I think there's a healing process waiting to take place. I think it's happening now as we speak, but it has to be resolved. Something has to be resolved there. They have to come to terms with going on a working basis, which Charlie and I will help make happen. Wish me luck.
- Doxa
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-09 12:14 by Doxa.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
KRiffhard
()
Date: March 9, 2020 12:49
Quote
Doxa
Inspired by that Keith interview from 2010 I discussed above I checked the always useful timeisonourside.com chronicle from 2011.
The original quote, from October 2010, was:
While Richards expects the Rolling Stones to tour in 2011, he says that the group may hit the studio before that. "After these many years working together, we have a lot of unfinished stuff to work on that we had to leave off the last album," says Richards. "And knowing Mick, as I do, he's a very prolific writer. And I have ideas, and we'll put them together in December or January, something like that ... We're looking forward to working."
So Keith wanted him and Mick to start making a new Stones album around December2010/January2011. What did happen?
No matter what LIFE did, Mick seemingly was rather involved in SuperHeavy project. The sessions had started years earlier, but the last sessions he did with Dave Stewart took place in late February. The album was to be released in September.
So was it that Mick's solo project was, once again, stand in the way for a new Stones album? Well, seemingly Keith didn't know anything about the whole project. In June Keith simply stated: "I haven't heard anything about it. I just wish him luck."
Keith himself started the sessions with Jordan for CROSSEYED HEART in Mid April. (He also sometimes during the year confessed: "I hardly played at all for two years. I'm sort of basically recovering from the book, and this is my therapy at the moment. In the process of doing it, my chops are coming back".)
Later in the year Mick was involved in SOME GIRLS bonus album material in August (Keith did his overdubs in September). This seemingly wasn't such a big project as the EXILE one - something, according to MIck, "he lived six months".
But what is interesting that in September - just after doing the SOME GIRLS stuff and around the time SUPERHEAVY was released - he stated:
I have been writing a lot for the Stones. I mean, when I write, I go, Yeah, that could be a good Stones tune or, That's not really going to work for that.
I did some sessions with Charlie recently where I just played some songs I'd written, and of course I wrote more when he was there. I'd start making them up, so that was good fun, so we had a really good time doing that.
(I've been) writing loads of these 12-bar blues songs, so I'm looking forward to doing something more in that vein. But then last night, I wrote a song and went straight from my version of John Lee Hooker into writing sort of pop songs, so I don't really know.
That sounded like Mick, after all, had a Stones relaese in his mind. How serious that was - hard to know. But Charlie was there, if that means anything (Interestingly when Charlie years later talked about 'what happened to that album' and of a series of sessions, might he also had that particular session in his mind?).
But then Keith declared two months later (in November):
I'm not writing for (the Stones) right now. I'm cutting my own stuff with Steve Jordan. There's no point in writing for the Stones until I know that Mick Jagger's in. He could have every song I've ever written. They're all for him. If he doesn't like them - or if he poo-poos them - I take them somewhere else.
Damn those two last quotes tell rather clearly that the Glimmer Twins weren't much in speaking terms... I think this quote by Ronnie from November is a rather telling here what was going on:
I think there's a healing process waiting to take place. I think it's happening now as we speak, but it has to be resolved. Something has to be resolved there. They have to come to terms with going on a working basis, which Charlie and I will help make happen. Wish me luck.
- Doxa
I don’t know if this hypothetical new album will ever be released.
I think there are real differences about the choice of the songs to publish among the stuff recorded (30/40 basic tracks?)
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 9, 2020 13:18
I don't believe in the «drama theory». There's nothing new there, btw, it's been like that with Mick and Keith since 1979. They released albums anyhow.
Today, however, they are old. And they don't spend as much time in the studio as they used to. With that approach things take time.
Today, however, they are old. And they don't spend as much time in the studio as they used to. With that approach things take time.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
GetYerAngie
()
Date: March 9, 2020 13:19
Quote
Doxa
Later in the year Mick was involved in SOME GIRLS bonus album material in August (Keith did his overdubs in September). This seemingly wasn't such a big project as the EXILE one - something, according to MIck, "he lived six months".
- Doxa
I think the bigger involvement in Exile, might not just be the Exile-tracks, but also the getting an idea of next steps of possible releases of the vault material. If I remember correctly, "Scarlett" was already mentioned as forthcoming at the time of the Exile-release (by Don Wass).
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: March 9, 2020 13:19
I am ready for a new album right now.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: March 9, 2020 19:58
I am ready for more vault material, right now.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: March 9, 2020 21:05
Quote
24FPS
I am ready for more vault material, right now.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Bjorn
()
Date: March 9, 2020 22:33
I´m ready for anything right now.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: March 9, 2020 22:42
….okay … what tight rope walking
across Niagara Falls while wearing hiking boots …
ROCKMAN
across Niagara Falls while wearing hiking boots …
ROCKMAN
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: March 9, 2020 23:42
I'm ready for a digital single right now!
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: March 9, 2020 23:43
Actually, can you imagine if Doom & Gloom were released as a single right now?
Number one in 10 countries!
Number one in 10 countries!
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
iraq0708
()
Date: March 10, 2020 01:39
I'm ready for a nap right now!
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: March 10, 2020 06:47
Quote
KRiffhard
From Uncut, nov. 2016
Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.
“Being prolific dont mean shit“, replies Richards.
“I‘ve got three songs and they‘re dynamite. I don‘t want to make any decisions about this until this record comes out, because I think it might radically change Mick‘s attitude; it might change mine“.
“I want to see the fallout from this record before I decide whether I want to record 40 of Mick‘s songs or whether he wants to sit down with me and record some songs together. That‘s my thing. That‘s my ball there. I‘ve always got a few songs on the back burner and so does Mick - he writes a lot. I don‘t. I tend to concentrate on two or three really interesting riffs or ideas, rather than being prolific“.
[www.uncut.co.uk]
Thanks KRiffhard!
Quote
Doxa
Well, LIFE happened. I find this interview by Keith interesting, and I recall not seeing it before. Probably the context is that of him promoting LIFE, right? So, Keith was "expecting" the Stones to tour in 2011... I wonder how much realism or substance there was in his expectations - was there real plans, or is just Keith speaking out of his mouth (bullshitting) while promoting the book. It would be over one year until there were those loose three-day jam sessions organized by Keith in London (December 2011).
Ha, this brings up memories! LOL
You're right, the interview was done in the course of promoting LIFE. And with LIFE happening, also Todger-Gate happened… I had totally forgotten about that. This must also be what Ronnie refers to in the quote in your time line.
Realism - Keith bullshitting (speaking out his wishful thinking) maybe in so far as he was was barely able to play around that time. I remember some videos that were plainly painful to watch. In retrospect it seems like Mick jumped at the chance and did Superheavy – another thing I had blocked out. LOL I also recall an interview with Steve Jordan (I think it was) where he described how had to lure Keith slowly and cautiously back towards recording and how Crosseyed Heart came together only over many years.
(I also remember my feelings of relief when they came to my town in 2014 that he had enough of his chops back to make it through the show without major f*ck-ups.)
Mick certainly also had a new Stones album in mind around that time – or at least didn't fully exclude the idea. I remember reports (interviews?) that Mick and Charlie recorded 40 demos in those duo sessions (I think that was way before the figure of 40 in the Uncut interview but I may err). When there was talk years later about Mick's 30 (or some such number) demos I always thought these were the demos he had recorded with Charlie back then. (There was even a video where you saw the two of them checking out the studio.) In retrospect, again, Mick's quote "I have been writing a lot for the Stones. I mean, when I write, I go, Yeah, that could be a good Stones tune or, That's not really going to work for that" sounds a bit like he wanted to be prepared for a new Stones album as well as for another Solo album (or other side project), perhaps depending on how Todger-Gate would develop. Recording two new songs for GRRRMPF was perhaps the lowest common denominator at the time of the sessions.
All in all the situation in those years – as it comes across in Doxa's timeline – has a flavour of one boy pissing another boy off, then being pissed off himself that the other boy is pissed off and doesn't want to play with him, and while the other boy gets ready to play on goes for another boy … and so on … they might in fact get younger everyday, really …
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 10, 2020 09:48
They did huge tours in 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007. They were also turning old.
Is it any wonder they needed a break?
They make so much money on these tours that the only reason I can see for any of them to get pissed off is when a band member says «I can't do the tour this time».
The tours have always been more important for Mick and Keith than the bickering. As time has proved, it doesn't run too deep.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-10 09:49 by DandelionPowderman.
Is it any wonder they needed a break?
They make so much money on these tours that the only reason I can see for any of them to get pissed off is when a band member says «I can't do the tour this time».
The tours have always been more important for Mick and Keith than the bickering. As time has proved, it doesn't run too deep.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-10 09:49 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: March 10, 2020 19:26
Quote
KRiffhard
From Uncut, nov. 2016
Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.
Keith: “I want to see the fallout from [BLUE AND LONESOME] before I decide whether I want to record...Mick‘s songs or whether he wants to sit down with me and record some songs together. That‘s my thing. That‘s my ball there.“
[www.uncut.co.uk]
For much of the past twenty years, Mick has found ways of conveying he's the one writing most of the material, not Keith. Mick will not spend the time with Keith slowly developing new material in the studio by jamming. Neither will Charlie and apparently not Ronnie either. In Charlie's case, doing so would likely be hard on him physically at this point. Both Mick and Keith have made that clear.
Mick is fine with Keith adding new ideas to the demos he works up with Matt Clifford, but he's impatient with how long it's taken Keith to do so this time around (a message Pete Townshend delivered to the press). For his part, Keith called that process "boring" and likened it to "shop class."
Mick's recent "don't hold your breath" is consistent with Don Was and Ronnie's remarks about the progress on the album. Not finishing the album or refusing to play on tracks is Keith's only real strength. What Keith wants is to write songs with Mick as he's said many times. It appears the reality is Keith is welcome to add musical ideas to what Mick has and if Keith brings a finished song to the table, Mick will consider it. This really isn't new apart from the fact that from 2002 to 2012, Keith was a lot more flexible. These past four years, he's put his foot down and let Mick release tracks cut with Ronnie and Charlie as solo singles.
Clearly, Keith is not feeling inspired by what he hears or he wouldn't disparage the creative process as "boring." Matt Clifford's publishing deal means he's not content to take a pre-production credit only this time, he wants songwriting credit if he writes a Stones song with Mick. If Mick wasn't okay with that, Matt wouldn't still be working with them. Mick clearly would prefer if Keith contributed and if not, if Keith would just play where and what he's told. If Mick truly was calling all the shots, we would have had the album in 2017 or 2018 or 2019. Keith doesn't want another "Don't Stop" or "Doom and Gloom" or "Streets of Love" or "Rain Fall Down" where he just does what he's told for the sake of product.
Keith has slowly been making progress cutting back on drinking, giving up smoking, all the while fighting against time. The real question is can a relatively sober Keith who previously did a great deal to damage relations not only with Mick but with the rest of the band come through and connect with what Mick is writing "these days" (largely tinkering with material written within the past nine years) and finally give us a new Stones album while the band is still a going concern.
It is a complex situation where they're both at fault. Bear all of that in mind next time Keith promises the album by Christmas or says they'll finish it right after the tour.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: March 10, 2020 20:24
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
KRiffhard
From Uncut, nov. 2016
Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.
Keith: “I want to see the fallout from [BLUE AND LONESOME] before I decide whether I want to record...Mick‘s songs or whether he wants to sit down with me and record some songs together. That‘s my thing. That‘s my ball there.“
[www.uncut.co.uk]
For much of the past twenty years, Mick has found ways of conveying he's the one writing most of the material, not Keith. Mick will not spend the time with Keith slowly developing new material in the studio by jamming. Neither will Charlie and apparently not Ronnie either. In Charlie's case, doing so would likely be hard on him physically at this point.
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround. When the three of them — Mick, Keith, Steve — appeared in a photo together at Germano Studios in 2018, I thought that was a great sign that progress was being made.
Steve, to his great credit, still has the patience to sit through, shape, and sharpen Keith’s ideas. Again, though, this was two years ago. We are well past the point where this should *still* be a problem.
Since Mick has told us not to hold our breath, we know a little more than nothing. But not much more!
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Christiaan
()
Date: March 10, 2020 22:25
From a interview about the his new film:
“Don’t hold your breath!” Jagger said. “I’ve been writing a lot, and I’ve done a load of demos and the Stones have recorded some really nice things. But we haven’t finished the album yet, so I’ve got no date for that.”
[www.reuters.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-10 22:27 by Christiaan.
“Don’t hold your breath!” Jagger said. “I’ve been writing a lot, and I’ve done a load of demos and the Stones have recorded some really nice things. But we haven’t finished the album yet, so I’ve got no date for that.”
[www.reuters.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-10 22:27 by Christiaan.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
bitusa2012
()
Date: March 11, 2020 12:55
They will have plenty of time, a few months, free, soon, so they should get into finishing this off. No way the tour goes ahead I reckon.
Rod
Rod
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 11, 2020 13:22
Quote
MelBelliQuote
Rocky DijonQuote
KRiffhard
From Uncut, nov. 2016
Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.
Keith: “I want to see the fallout from [BLUE AND LONESOME] before I decide whether I want to record...Mick‘s songs or whether he wants to sit down with me and record some songs together. That‘s my thing. That‘s my ball there.“
[www.uncut.co.uk]
For much of the past twenty years, Mick has found ways of conveying he's the one writing most of the material, not Keith. Mick will not spend the time with Keith slowly developing new material in the studio by jamming. Neither will Charlie and apparently not Ronnie either. In Charlie's case, doing so would likely be hard on him physically at this point.
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround. When the three of them — Mick, Keith, Steve — appeared in a photo together at Germano Studios in 2018, I thought that was a great sign that progress was being made.
Steve, to his great credit, still has the patience to sit through, shape, and sharpen Keith’s ideas. Again, though, this was two years ago. We are well past the point where this should *still* be a problem.
Since Mick has told us not to hold our breath, we know a little more than nothing. But not much more!
Do you know that for a fact? It could also have been for practical reasons - as in they had access to a studio and a good engineer they knew well, when both were in town.
IMO – assuming you don't know more than me - the info we have is not enough to make such conclusions as you and Rocky did.
There might be many reasons. Not saying you're wrong, though.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: March 11, 2020 15:22
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MelBelli
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround.
Do you know that for a fact?
In one interview around the time of the release of Main Offender (or so, at any rate with respect to the Winos) Keith said he is writing with Steve Jordan because he doesn't like to write alone but prefers to have a partner to exchange ideas with. So it wouldn't be surprising if things went similarly with Crosseyed heart, all the more in view of the fact (?) that Steve Jordan kind of mildly pushed Keith to record a song every once in a while (at least, SJ said so). In this light also Keith's statements that he would like to work on new stuff together with Mick makes good sense. (That Mick is not fond of the idea of watching Keith strumming the same chord for hours while waiting for inspiration or the like is another story.)
I guess we all know that we know (next to) nothing, and that public statements by the Stones are always to some extent also "political" statements and therefore to be taken with some caution.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 11, 2020 15:27
Quote
doitywoikQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MelBelli
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround.
Do you know that for a fact?
In one interview around the time of the release of Main Offender (or so, at any rate with respect to the Winos) Keith said he is writing with Steve Jordan because he doesn't like to write alone but prefers to have a partner to exchange ideas with. So it wouldn't be surprising if things went similarly with Crosseyed heart, all the more in view of the fact (?) that Steve Jordan kind of mildly pushed Keith to record a song every once in a while (at least, SJ said so). In this light also Keith's statements that he would like to work on new stuff together with Mick makes good sense. (That Mick is not fond of the idea of watching Keith strumming the same chord for hours while waiting for inspiration or the like is another story.)
I guess we all know that we know (next to) nothing, and that public statements by the Stones are always to some extent also "political" statements and therefore to be taken with some caution.
But where does that story come from. It's most likely true, but as far as I know it's never been confirmed by Mick.
Their conflicts in the past have been (according to the both of them) about the mixing, the musical direction and touring.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: March 11, 2020 21:49
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MelBelliQuote
Rocky DijonQuote
KRiffhard
From Uncut, nov. 2016
Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.
Keith: “I want to see the fallout from [BLUE AND LONESOME] before I decide whether I want to record...Mick‘s songs or whether he wants to sit down with me and record some songs together. That‘s my thing. That‘s my ball there.“
[www.uncut.co.uk]
For much of the past twenty years, Mick has found ways of conveying he's the one writing most of the material, not Keith. Mick will not spend the time with Keith slowly developing new material in the studio by jamming. Neither will Charlie and apparently not Ronnie either. In Charlie's case, doing so would likely be hard on him physically at this point.
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround. When the three of them — Mick, Keith, Steve — appeared in a photo together at Germano Studios in 2018, I thought that was a great sign that progress was being made.
Steve, to his great credit, still has the patience to sit through, shape, and sharpen Keith’s ideas. Again, though, this was two years ago. We are well past the point where this should *still* be a problem.
Since Mick has told us not to hold our breath, we know a little more than nothing. But not much more!
Do you know that for a fact? It could also have been for practical reasons - as in they had access to a studio and a good engineer they knew well, when both were in town.
IMO – assuming you don't know more than me - the info we have is not enough to make such conclusions as you and Rocky did.
There might be many reasons. Not saying you're wrong, though.
It's as close to a confirmed fact as I can get without speaking to the principals themselves.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: March 12, 2020 03:20
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
doitywoik
...(That Mick is not fond of the idea of watching Keith strumming the same chord for hours while waiting for inspiration or the like is another story.)-...
But where does that story come from. It's most likely true, but as far as I know it's never been confirmed by Mick.[/quote]
First, I have to say sorry. There should have been a "perhaps" in that sentence that I evidently thought but didn't type. This is of course primarily my own speculation but it draws on articles/reports over the decades describing Keith endlessly strumming the same riff or the like. Here's something in that vein from an interview with Waddy Wachtel:
"One day he was standing there, playing a chord and switching the toggle switch back and forth on his guitar, and I was watching him. He did it over and over again. There are limits to how much you can invade someone’s space, but I went, What are you doing? He said, [Keith voice] ‘I was just figuring out which one’s my sound.’"
[www.mojo4music.com]
There are also interviews with Mick from which it transpires that he doesn't like to waste time but I don't have a quote handy. Also, think of the Paris 2002 sessions where Keith is trying to remember the (or an) intro to one of the songs, and after a minute or so Mick is telling him that he can also search the tapes later (or something to that effect).
I'm pretty sure Rockman has a whole library of fitting quotes.
The puzzling thing is that earlier Keith used to brag how many songs he actually wrote for albums. Like, I remember an interview (or was it from a book?) were he claimed to have written 130 songs just for Voodoo Lounge. In view of this it is a little strange that he now mocks Mick for being prolific while admitting that he himself has only three new songs, and it doesn't come as a surprise that people are wondering what happened to his creative spark.
I'm wondering sometimes if in earlier times his creativity wasn't also correlated with his intake. With most intake options gone or radically reduced (if we are to believe him) a loss in drive would seem quite plausible then.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: March 12, 2020 04:56
I fear we've hit a wall with speculation, educated guesses, and rumors.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: March 12, 2020 05:10
I don't understand Mick's impatience with Keith. When they sit down and work together they write great songs. Who cares how long it takes.
And obviously when they don't work together, like now, it takes even longer.
And obviously when they don't work together, like now, it takes even longer.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: March 12, 2020 05:12
I'm pretty sure Rockman has a whole library of fitting quotes
Yeah but the only filing tool I own is a flat-bastard ….
ROCKMAN
Yeah but the only filing tool I own is a flat-bastard ….
ROCKMAN
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: March 12, 2020 13:37
Quote
wonderboy
I don't understand Mick's impatience with Keith. When they sit down and work together they write great songs. Who cares how long it takes.
And obviously when they don't work together, like now, it takes even longer.
Good point.
Re: New Stones album for 2020?
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: March 12, 2020 14:28
Quote
doitywoikQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MelBelli
Bringing Steve Jordan into the mix was supposed to be the workaround.
Do you know that for a fact?
In one interview around the time of the release of Main Offender (or so, at any rate with respect to the Winos) Keith said he is writing with Steve Jordan because he doesn't like to write alone but prefers to have a partner to exchange ideas with. So it wouldn't be surprising if things went similarly with Crosseyed heart, all the more in view of the fact (?) that Steve Jordan kind of mildly pushed Keith to record a song every once in a while (at least, SJ said so). In this light also Keith's statements that he would like to work on new stuff together with Mick makes good sense. (That Mick is not fond of the idea of watching Keith strumming the same chord for hours while waiting for inspiration or the like is another story.)
I guess we all know that we know (next to) nothing, and that public statements by the Stones are always to some extent also "political" statements and therefore to be taken with some caution.
I would be more than "Happy" to help Keith work up a few new songs. 1-800-ELL-MMOO
"No Anchovies, Please"
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