Quote
TornAndFried
Mick is more interested in partying with his posh friends and banging young women than working on songs in the studio. Whatever creativity and concentration he has left is wasted in his need to stay socially relevant.

If I was able to do all that at 56, let alone 76, you wouldn't catch me within a hundred miles of a studio.

We always assume it’s Jagger holding things up. Could be Keith for all we know

Quote
Gazza
If I was able to do all that at 56, let alone 76, you wouldn't catch me within a hundred miles of a studio.

That's just the sort of thing Matt Clifford would post if he didn't want people to know he was really Matt Clifford.

Quote
Bashlets
We always assume it’s Jagger holding things up. Could be Keith for all we know

Well it seems certain we would have had two new Stones tracks as a single in 2017 if Keith had been as willing as Charlie and Ronnie were to participate.

Allegedly, Mick brought enough finished songs for an album or two to the table in 2015. He had commented that what the Stones didn't want would probably go to a solo album but he wouldn't think about that until after the Stones "thing" was done.

It certainly seems that it's Keith who jams endlessly with loads of riffs and half-formed songs (the unfinished work that's been described to us mainly by Don Was) while Mick is the one who finishes every idea with either Matt Clifford or Dave Stewart and has a highly-polished demo with programmed parts in place before he reaches the studio.

If that is true, we certainly could have had the planned double album with a new Stones disc plus BLUE AND LONESOME in 2016, but Keith didn't want to do as he was told and just overdub Mick's pre-production demos this time. He wanted them to create music together and not just go along with the program since Mick had "rewritten his part" as he complained in "Infamy."

Ronnie mentioned earlier this year that in spite of the sessions they've done as a band over the last few years, Mick and Keith are still working on getting their Jagger-Richards chemistry back.

That would seem to fit the narrative of what went wrong. They hit a wall in December 2015 alright. A wall named Keith who didn't want the last Stones album to be "place your riff here" directions.

Relationships take years to crack sometimes. For Bill, the resentment started early. Not being able to write for the band. The loss of group songwriting credits when composing in the studio once they signed with Klein added fuel to the fire. Resentment over The Glimmer Twins taking over from Jimmy Miller led to his side solo career and to his making Taylor believe it was all falling apart rapidly.

For the rest of the band, it was the situation Keith's Toronto drug bust put them in when Rupert was negotiating with EMI and Atlantic in 1977. To protect the contract, The Rolling Stones were contractually defined as Mick Jagger and two others the public recognized as band members. This was a necessary loophole considering Keith was either headed to prison or as a drug casualty when they were trying to convince Stigwood, EMI, and Ahmet Ertegun they were still worth millions despite likely losing half of the songwriting, production, and guitar team. That's also why it was necessary to stockpile material at the initial Pathe-Marconi sessions in case three more albums had to be finished without Keith.

The downsizing of their organization began in earnest with Jane Rose among others being dismissed by Mick and Rupert. Feeling vulnerable, everyone except Mick suddenly ended up under separate management. Keith hiring Jane was an obvious slap in the face to Mick. Ronnie signed with Nick Cowan. Bill with Eric Gardner. Charlie with Sherry Daly. Now management needed to be contacted individually to arrange band meetings. You can understand the band feeling Rupert was Mick's guy, but he was just protecting his investment when Keith's recklessness endangered the entire organization. The rest felt they were put on notice as replaceable. Soon enough Earl McGrath would be a victim of these politics and driven out by Mick.

Billy Preston's management looked at the writing on the wall after the Toronto bust and had demanded either band membership for Billy or a substantial increase in compensation. Ronnie was more than happy to bring Mac into the fold to replace him, but Mac brought his own issues. Not only was he a partier like Bobby and therefore a potential liability for Keith and Ronnie, but Mac had a resentment of Rod Stewart and all front men which quickly extended to Mick and was taken up by Keith and Ronnie with the Brenda jokes and LV Syndrome remarks.

According to Stu's interview with Bill German in early 1981, Charlie was going to tour with The New Barbarians until "it turned into such bullshit." What that means can be seen in Mick's response in 25 x 5 to why Keith's reaction to Mick going solo was "completely unnecessary since he had already done his New Barbarians thing." Somewhere between Marvin Mitchelson hitting Mick hard with both Bianca and Marsha Hunt in 1978, Keith's hiring of Jane Rose as personal management, Ronnie's solo tour improbably becoming an arena tour because people believed Mick, Dylan, or Neil Young were likely to turn up as guest front men -- somewhere in there Mick decided he didn't want to do it any more and that he was tired of providing for others who didn't pull their weight, bitched all the time (Charlie), were unappreciative of his tireless efforts as manager and in the studio, and were now becoming very vocal in criticizing his creative contributions (Keith).

Rupert's book mentions his difficulty convincing Mick to tour in 1981 saying it wouldn't have happened without the financial hit of Bianca and Marsha Hunt's suits against him. Mick told "High Times" during the EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions that he wanted to do a solo tour. He would talk to George Thorogood and Stevie Ray Vaughan about potentially touring with him in 1982 and 1983, respectively. More seriously, he went after Steve Vai as soon as DIRTY WORK was finished. December 1985, "Musician" reporting on CBS' trade show said Mick's solo tour would be announced in 1986, but they couldn't talk about it until after the Stones album. Keith had dinner with each of the other Stones in early 1984 to discuss Mick's "betrayal." The band met multiple times that year and pulled Ronnie out of the meetings after the first. It does appear a potential break up was actually discussed. All of this took years to crack apart and what we have today is just the latest iteration.

It is claimed Prince Rupert had to take calls (how serious is questionable) about whether or not they could replace Mick with either Womack or Covay. Rupert sardonically suggested Terence Trent D'arby (another of his clients). Wyman thought D'arby was a good idea and had a conversation with Daltrey as well to gauge his interest. John Blake ran with some of this in the British tabloid press after Wyman spoke to him during the whole PRIMITIVE COOL album/tour fiasco while Mick spun out of control with Roger Davies trying and failing to get Mick on a package tour with Bowie and Tina Turner. Was any of this serious or just venting? Hard to say.

Somewhere in there, coked-up conversations in New York in 1985 had Ronnie believing he and Keith were reviving The New Barbarians with Jordan, Drayton, and Ivan Neville and would back each other on solo albums before touring together. Jane Rose was wise enough to know Ronnie's condition made him a bad playmate for Keith if her job was to rehabilitate Keith's brain-damaged junkie image and earn him a major label solo deal. She pressed the right buttons by convincing him to let Ronnie go because if they stuck together, the Stones had no chance of reuniting for the foreseeable future if Ronnie took sides. Unfortunately, Ronnie and Keith's friendship suffered permanent damage as a consequence. They were never as close after spitting in 1986.

Allegedly, Rupert had to take an angry call from Mick about replacing Keith in 1988, but again if true it was probably just Mick venting and there was no real possibility of doing so. Many people were used and discarded as pawns until the two massive egos could work together again and make amazing money starting with Michael Cohl. After B2B failed to match VOODOO LOUNGE, the model would never be the same.

Whether or not Keith's creativity was drying up because of too much over-indulgence for far too long, Mick no longer had the patience to spend a year in the studio with him. Starting with LICKS they followed a more efficient model. That's the long and short of their fractured relationship until the wall was hit at British Grove. The time since has been trying to make it happen again. Both egos are huge. Both want the same thing -- The Rolling Stones on their own terms.

And if ALTERNATIVE NATION quotes chunks of this in their amateurish click-bait news articles that keep turning up on my cell phone, please include the remark that ALTERNATIVE NATION makes WEEKLY WORLD NEWS look like THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 17:36 by Rocky Dijon.

Fascinating read into the fractured history of the group post 1977. There are many things I still don't know about my favorite band. And many things I suppose we will never know. If only Mick would write an autobiography...but he won't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 19:05 by TornAndFried.

The thing is, if Mick and Keith were each able to write a 100% honest autobiography with no concern about lawyers removing anything, they still would tell two different stories much of the time. That's the nature of people and partnerships.

We don't need a book by Mick, we need one by Rocky

I'd be happy with a new solo album from Keith.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

A book by any of us would be as worthless as any other book written by people who don't actually know them, but thank you for the kindness behind that remark, syrel.

Hairball, I'll gladly take Mick and Keith solo albums, but I'd like a Stones album first.

Wow, Rocky.

I feel like I've grown into quite a Stones scholar since becoming a fan in 1989, but much of that post was a revelation.

The first thing that comes to mind is the idea that Wyman negatively colored Taylor's view of the state of the band in '74? I'd never heard that before.

As for the post-'77 stuff, it certainly makes me feel more empathy toward Mick, since I've generally felt that it was Keith who always had the "can't we just be a band of brothers and play the blues" kind of mentality, and that Mick was just self-absorbed during those rough 80's. VL, BtB and BB have always felt somewhat uneven for me, and your post helps me understand why that might be the case...and why B & L feels like the sound of a band having fun again, because they were playing in the mutually comfortable blues pocket of their youth.

And Billy Preston's people wanted Billy to become a member of the band?

Whatever they do in the future is good with me. I genuinely have no expectations. if the last record ends up being "Blue and Lonesome", in some ways that seems fitting.

Thank you for your post.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-06 18:56 by floodonthepage.

No, we got it already

Rocky, you mention 'everyone except Mick ended up under seperate Management'..
But does Mick have a 'Manager' as such?
I have always thought that since Klein left he has been his own man.
Prince Rupert managed the finances and contracts, for the group. McGrath the Record label and so on.
I have never seen a Jane Rose Manager type in the background. Mick has P.A's of course to sort out his personal life.
Like Macca and Dylan...they have a 'team' behind the scenes but they dont take any guidance from anyone...or so it seems.

Great message, by the way. Very illuminating.

The single most amazing part of that great account was that billy preston's management demanded "band membership."

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
Bashlets
We always assume it’s Jagger holding things up. Could be Keith for all we know

Well it seems certain we would have had two new Stones tracks as a single in 2017 if Keith had been as willing as Charlie and Ronnie were to participate.

Allegedly, Mick brought enough finished songs for an album or two to the table in 2015. He had commented that what the Stones didn't want would probably go to a solo album but he wouldn't think about that until after the Stones "thing" was done.

It certainly seems that it's Keith who jams endlessly with loads of riffs and half-formed songs (the unfinished work that's been described to us mainly by Don Was) while Mick is the one who finishes every idea with either Matt Clifford or Dave Stewart and has a highly-polished demo with programmed parts in place before he reaches the studio.

If that is true, we certainly could have had the planned double album with a new Stones disc plus BLUE AND LONESOME in 2016, but Keith didn't want to do as he was told and just overdub Mick's pre-production demos this time. He wanted them to create music together and not just go along with the program since Mick had "rewritten his part" as he complained in "Infamy."

Ronnie mentioned earlier this year that in spite of the sessions they've done as a band over the last few years, Mick and Keith are still working on getting their Jagger-Richards chemistry back.

That would seem to fit the narrative of what went wrong. They hit a wall in December 2015 alright. A wall named Keith who didn't want the last Stones album to be "place your riff here" directions.

Relationships take years to crack sometimes. For Bill, the resentment started early. Not being able to write for the band. The loss of group songwriting credits when composing in the studio once they signed with Klein added fuel to the fire. Resentment over The Glimmer Twins taking over from Jimmy Miller led to his side solo career and to his making Taylor believe it was all falling apart rapidly.

For the rest of the band, it was the situation Keith's Toronto drug bust put them in when Rupert was negotiating with EMI and Atlantic in 1977. To protect the contract, The Rolling Stones were contractually defined as Mick Jagger and two others the public recognized as band members. This was a necessary loophole considering Keith was either headed to prison or as a drug casualty when they were trying to convince Stigwood, EMI, and Ahmet Ertegun they were still worth millions despite likely losing half of the songwriting, production, and guitar team. That's also why it was necessary to stockpile material at the initial Pathe-Marconi sessions in case three more albums had to be finished without Keith.

The downsizing of their organization began in earnest with Jane Rose among others being dismissed by Mick and Rupert. Feeling vulnerable, everyone except Mick suddenly ended up under separate management. Keith hiring Jane was an obvious slap in the face to Mick. Ronnie signed with Nick Cowan. Bill with Eric Gardner. Charlie with Sherry Daly. Now management needed to be contacted individually to arrange band meetings. You can understand the band feeling Rupert was Mick's guy, but he was just protecting his investment when Keith's recklessness endangered the entire organization. The rest felt they were put on notice as replaceable. Soon enough Earl McGrath would be a victim of these politics and driven out by Mick.

Billy Preston's management looked at the writing on the wall after the Toronto bust and had demanded either band membership for Billy or a substantial increase in compensation. Ronnie was more than happy to bring Mac into the fold to replace him, but Mac brought his own issues. Not only was he a partier like Bobby and therefore a potential liability for Keith and Ronnie, but Mac had a resentment of Rod Stewart and all front men which quickly extended to Mick and was taken up by Keith and Ronnie with the Brenda jokes and LV Syndrome remarks.

According to Stu's interview with Bill German in early 1981, Charlie was going to tour with The New Barbarians until "it turned into such bullshit." What that means can be seen in Mick's response in 25 x 5 to why Keith's reaction to Mick going solo was "completely unnecessary since he had already done his New Barbarians thing." Somewhere between Marvin Mitchelson hitting Mick hard with both Bianca and Marsha Hunt in 1978, Keith's hiring of Jane Rose as personal management, Ronnie's solo tour improbably becoming an arena tour because people believed Mick, Dylan, or Neil Young were likely to turn up as guest front men -- somewhere in there Mick decided he didn't want to do it any more and that he was tired of providing for others who didn't pull their weight, bitched all the time (Charlie), were unappreciative of his tireless efforts as manager and in the studio, and were now becoming very vocal in criticizing his creative contributions (Keith).

Rupert's book mentions his difficulty convincing Mick to tour in 1981 saying it wouldn't have happened without the financial hit of Bianca and Marsha Hunt's suits against him. Mick told "High Times" during the EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions that he wanted to do a solo tour. He would talk to George Thorogood and Stevie Ray Vaughan about potentially touring with him in 1982 and 1983, respectively. More seriously, he went after Steve Vai as soon as DIRTY WORK was finished. December 1985, "Musician" reporting on CBS' trade show said Mick's solo tour would be announced in 1986, but they couldn't talk about it until after the Stones album. Keith had dinner with each of the other Stones in early 1984 to discuss Mick's "betrayal." The band met multiple times that year and pulled Ronnie out of the meetings after the first. It does appear a potential break up was actually discussed. All of this took years to crack apart and what we have today is just the latest iteration.

It is claimed Prince Rupert had to take calls (how serious is questionable) about whether or not they could replace Mick with either Womack or Covay. Rupert sardonically suggested Terence Trent D'arby (another of his clients). Wyman thought D'arby was a good idea and had a conversation with Daltrey as well to gauge his interest. John Blake ran with some of this in the British tabloid press after Wyman spoke to him during the whole PRIMITIVE COOL album/tour fiasco while Mick spun out of control with Roger Davies trying and failing to get Mick on a package tour with Bowie and Tina Turner. Was any of this serious or just venting? Hard to say.

Somewhere in there, coked-up conversations in New York in 1985 had Ronnie believing he and Keith were reviving The New Barbarians with Jordan, Drayton, and Ivan Neville and would back each other on solo albums before touring together. Jane Rose was wise enough to know Ronnie's condition made him a bad playmate for Keith if her job was to rehabilitate Keith's brain-damaged junkie image and earn him a major label solo deal. She pressed the right buttons by convincing him to let Ronnie go because if they stuck together, the Stones had no chance of reuniting for the foreseeable future if Ronnie took sides. Unfortunately, Ronnie and Keith's friendship suffered permanent damage as a consequence. They were never as close after spitting in 1986.

Allegedly, Rupert had to take an angry call from Mick about replacing Keith in 1988, but again if true it was probably just Mick venting and there was no real possibility of doing so. Many people were used and discarded as pawns until the two massive egos could work together again and make amazing money starting with Michael Cohl. After B2B failed to match VOODOO LOUNGE, the model would never be the same.

Whether or not Keith's creativity was drying up because of too much over-indulgence for far too long, Mick no longer had the patience to spend a year in the studio with him. Starting with LICKS they followed a more efficient model. That's the long and short of their fractured relationship until the wall was hit at British Grove. The time since has been trying to make it happen again. Both egos are huge. Both want the same thing -- The Rolling Stones on their own terms.

And if ALTERNATIVE NATION quotes chunks of this in their amateurish click-bait news articles that keep turning up on my cell phone, please include the remark that ALTERNATIVE NATION makes WEEKLY WORLD NEWS look like THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.

This...this is a cool post. Mick was incredibly prolific up until Superheavy or so. One assumes he has a ton of songs that he won't put out as "Mick Jagger" because of fear no one will listen. (Which sadly seems justified, since England Lost was IMO a good track but I don't think it went anywhere.) I think with Bang they tried Mick and Keith in a room together again but Mick made remarks indicating that the bulk of the writing was his. I didn't know Keith & Ronnie drifted away over him not doing Talk Is Cheap, but Rose was right - he had to stay neutral. I must say, Mick, Tina & Bowie would have been a cool tour!

Quote
jlowe
Rocky, you mention 'everyone except Mick ended up under seperate Management'..
But does Mick have a 'Manager' as such?
I have always thought that since Klein left he has been his own man.
Prince Rupert managed the finances and contracts, for the group. McGrath the Record label and so on.
I have never seen a Jane Rose Manager type in the background. Mick has P.A's of course to sort out his personal life.
Like Macca and Dylan...they have a 'team' behind the scenes but they dont take any guidance from anyone...or so it seems.

Great message, by the way. Very illuminating.

My take was that Rupert (and now Joyce) fulfill the same role as Klein but with less powers (they don't own the band's copyrights or publishing, but they still negotiate with labels and tour promoters on their behalf). And almost certainly Joyce signed an NDA that Rupert was not required to do way back when.

One of the most interesting parts of Rupert's book was reading how he was a major player in sorting out the Pink Floyd name rights between Waters vs. Gilmour and Mason. It was apparently Rupert's suggestion that Rick Wright would give them the leverage needed to make a claim that would stand up in court. It would also appear that Rupert was very involved in setting up the 1987 Floyd tour and, consequently, STEEL WHEELS / URBAN JUNGLE which in many ways followed the Floyd model.

Rupert's role was financial, not creative - find the right deal, find the right people, but his guidance was invaluable. I'm sure Brian's Estate had to deal with Rupert as much as Klein and I would love to see the details there, but of course we never will. Considering Rupert just their "banker" (as Mick dismissed him when they fell out) does a grave disservice to the man who steered them through every deal since they first began carefully disentangling with Klein in 1969.

I would say Victoria Pearman fulfilled a Jane Rose-type function for Mick for quite a few years. There's also Tony King who stayed very much in the background for decades. He was Andrew's hire who then worked directly for the band once they left Klein. He became an independent and still represented them for a very long time. I believe their association did come to an end though. Marshall Chess, Earl McGrath, Art Collins, etc. could all tell (or when they were alive at any rate) amazing stories.

Another one is Eric Easton (or whatever his real name was) who falls off the face of the earth when Klein comes in. One would have thought given the huge success of the band that he would have returned to be interviewed or write books. He appeared to take a powder almost like a witness relocation program. Klein was quite the intimidating figure in his day, as Sam Cooke would doubtless tell us if he could. It's always interesting to me that all the Brian conspiracy theories never involve Klein. I also found it interesting that Bobby Womack never appeared to discuss Klein despite his very close involvement with him and the fact that right up to both their deaths, Klein still owned a good chunk of Bobby's early copyrights and publishing. These are things I'd love to know. Klein is a fascinating figure, but I suspect the best stories died with him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 20:11 by Rocky Dijon.

Going of Woody's comments, I think we could be listening to this album by May. Then hearing it live in July. 2020 could be a good year!

Quote
CJFP
Going of Woody's comments, I think we could be listening to this album by May. Then hearing it live in July. 2020 could be a good year!

Woody is great for giving spontaneous and often colorful remarks but he doesn't call the shots and has a track record for being overly optimistic. And with shows averaging 19 songs now do you really want 2 or 3 of them to be new ones?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 20:25 by TornAndFried.

For what it's worth, a few of us heard that rough timeframe for the new album before Woody said it (I'm pretty sure it's even posted in this massive thread somewhere or other). Allegedly it was finish the album by April and then hit the road with a new album. Breath-holding isn't advisable.

Quote
Rocky Dijon

Quote
jlowe
Rocky, you mention 'everyone except Mick ended up under seperate Management'..
But does Mick have a 'Manager' as such?
I have always thought that since Klein left he has been his own man.
Prince Rupert managed the finances and contracts, for the group. McGrath the Record label and so on.
I have never seen a Jane Rose Manager type in the background. Mick has P.A's of course to sort out his personal life.
Like Macca and Dylan...they have a 'team' behind the scenes but they dont take any guidance from anyone...or so it seems.

Great message, by the way. Very illuminating.

My take was that Rupert (and now Joyce) fulfill the same role as Klein but with less powers (they don't own the band's copyrights or publishing, but they still negotiate with labels and tour promoters on their behalf). And almost certainly Joyce signed an NDA that Rupert was not required to do way back when.

One of the most interesting parts of Rupert's book was reading how he was a major player in sorting out the Pink Floyd name rights between Waters vs. Gilmour and Mason. It was apparently Rupert's suggestion that Rick Wright would give them the leverage needed to make a claim that would stand up in court. It would also appear that Rupert was very involved in setting up the 1987 Floyd tour and, consequently, STEEL WHEELS / URBAN JUNGLE which in many ways followed the Floyd model.

Rupert's role was financial, not creative - find the right deal, find the right people, but his guidance was invaluable. I'm sure Brian's Estate had to deal with Rupert as much as Klein and I would love to see the details there, but of course we never will. Considering Rupert just their "banker" (as Mick dismissed him when they fell out) does a grave disservice to the man who steered them through every deal since they first began carefully disentangling with Klein in 1969.

I would say Victoria Pearman fulfilled a Jane Rose-type function for Mick for quite a few years. There's also Tony King who stayed very much in the background for decades. He was Andrew's hire who then worked directly for the band once they left Klein. He became an independent and still represented them for a very long time. I believe their association did come to an end though. Marshall Chess, Earl McGrath, Art Collins, etc. could all tell (or when they were alive at any rate) amazing stories.

Another one is Eric Easton (or whatever his real name was) who falls off the face of the earth when Klein comes in. One would have thought given the huge success of the band that he would have returned to be interviewed or write books. He appeared to take a powder almost like a witness relocation program. Klein was quite the intimidating figure in his day, as Sam Cooke would doubtless tell us if he could. It's always interesting to me that all the Brian conspiracy theories never involve Klein. I also found it interesting that Bobby Womack never appeared to discuss Klein despite his very close involvement with him and the fact that right up to both their deaths, Klein still owned a good chunk of Bobby's early copyrights and publishing. These are things I'd love to know. Klein is a fascinating figure, but I suspect the best stories died with him.

Has their ever been a book written about Allen Klein? Have his children indicated they have an archive of letters, tapes, legal documents and other correspondence that would illuminate his history with the Beatles, Stones and others?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 21:11 by TornAndFried.

Jody is his son actually (unless you meant Robin, if so - apologies) and I don't think there's been a book or will be. Jody might not be his Dad, but they're a family that likes to keep relatively low profiles. Think of Belushi talking to himself in the mirror as Ron Decline in THE RUTLES ("I want to protect you from people like me").

There is a book by Fred Goodman

[www.amazon.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 21:06 by Rocky Dijon.

Quote
TornAndFried
And with shows averaging 19 songs now do you really want 2 or 3 of them to be new ones?

Clever thought! And considering their last self-penned songs that became a part of their setlist, permanently, on it's following tour;
Doom & Gloom, Oh No Not You Again, Don't Stop, Streets Of Love, Rough Justice, etc.....no, it would be better with a studio album AFTER any tour, I'd say



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 21:42 by Erik_Snow.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Whether or not Keith's creativity was drying up because of too much over-indulgence for far too long, Mick no longer had the patience to spend a year in the studio with him. Starting with LICKS they followed a more efficient model. That's the long and short of their fractured relationship until the wall was hit at British Grove. The time since has been trying to make it happen again. Both egos are huge. Both want the same thing -- The Rolling Stones on their own terms.

I've sensed a stagnation in their process as well.

Listening to the outtakes from the Paris "Don't Stop" sessions kind of lifted the veil on what exactly goes on when they get together to work. It appears to me that Keith does not work well in the rushed pace that Mick prefers. I recall moments when Keith comes off a bit flustered with trying to come up with parts for the new songs. Whatever input Keith can contribute seems to be stifled because Mick likes the wham-bam approach in the studio. Come in ready with songs. Jamming kept to a minimum. . The problem is Keith likes to find new songs with the whole band together. And that takes time.

It doesn't help that for many of the new songs Mick comes in with--he insists on taking the 'lead' rhythm guitar parts leaving almost nothing for Keith to do ("Don't Stop," "Doom and Gloom"). I'm sure Mick does this just to move things along in the process but again, leaves Keith in the dark.

I would like to throw in one more element to the mix that I've been chewing on. Completely speculating: I suspect that Charlie may have even less patience than Mick in the studio. I'm wondering if Mick's frustrations with the new material may also include Charlie's disinterest in spending time finding interesting parts for these songs? Going by the latest new songs they've released plus Charlie's performing habits on stage recently---Charlie has remained pretty loyal to the four-on-the-floor beat on most songs. Could he be"phoning" it in, in the studio as well and this is causing things to stagnate?

In recent tours it's clear that the band is working smoother than ever before when they perform on stage. Hopefully whatever cooperation and goodwill they've exhibited on stage can be brought over to the studio so they can finally finish this project.

Good points about Charlie. Apart from actual band sessions, Mick is the only one who still works with Keith in isolation. Charlie and Ronnie will still work with Mick, but no one but Mick has been around Keith (among the Stones) for years. You could say it's purely geographical separation, but is that excuse really valid for guys who can afford to go anywhere anytime?

If it was a question of Keith being difficult, then it's interesting that Steve Jordan, Waddy, and Ivan have no difficulty staying loyal to him. Even with over 20 years between albums, those guys play or cut with Keith pretty regularly. They're actual friends. I'm not certain Keith really has close relationships in the Stones any more. He says nice things about Charlie always, but when did they last hang out? When did Keith last go to one of Charlie's jazz gigs (as he used to)? Keith and Ronnie vacationed together with the wives earlier this year and that was the first time in a good long while (the 2006 head injury as far as I know and that incident was the first in what 20 years?) since they've done that. Keith's habits vs. Ronnie's battles with sobriety are or likely were also a factor. They do a great job of hiding the truth. Their kids all seem to get along well and they view the others as uncles, but there isn't much love any more. Jerry's attitude to Keith also seemed to have hardened over the years.

This really does seem like a BRIDGES TO BABYLON type situation again between Mick and Keith. Although, this seems to be far worse. I mean when was the last time Keith truly had his flavor on a Stones album? I'd say VOODOO LOUNGE. B2B was basically an all Mick album with 3 Keith songs thrown in and A BIGGER BANG was basically all Mick. Do we really believe that Mick and Keith got along during those writing sessions with Don Was at Germano Studios in 2017 & 2018?

There's clearly a fight for what they want for this album. They have a shit ton of stuff down, but, according to Don Was, it's pretty directionless. That's not a good way of making a band album when you literally have no idea what shape the album is taking. It's come down to them saying, "Yes, we started making an album. It should come out next year." Than the same question is asked the following year where the answer pushes it again to the following year. We still don't know if those 40 or so songs are mostly rough sketches or they have a dozen or so songs ready for overdubbing.

The Stones fan in me says they'll absolutely finish and release it in 2020. The other side of me though says it'll be released by their 60th anniversary.

Quote
JordyLicks96
This really does seem like a BRIDGES TO BABYLON type situation again between Mick and Keith. Although, this seems to be far worse. I mean when was the last time Keith truly had his flavor on a Stones album? I'd say VOODOO LOUNGE. B2B was basically an all Mick album with 3 Keith songs thrown in

Disagree about B2B, I'd say it's about 50/50. The tracks with the Dust Brothers or Danny Saber or the one started by Babyface are Mick's. That's six tracks and all the singles. The others with just Don Was and Rob Fraboni are Keith's.

The album was born out of two abandoned solo albums in 1996. They then worked on each other's tracks. Something like "Flip the Switch" and "Low Down" or "Too Tight" have Winos blueprints all over them. The sound is all drum and guitar contrasts with those tribal vocals that start with TALK IS CHEAP and peaked with WINGLESS ANGELS. "Anyway You Look At It" with its haunting guitar melody and namecheck for "Point of View" (Keith's home in Jamaica and also referenced in "Make No Mistake") is a Keith song. "Always Suffering" with those vocals and Pierre's close involvement is one of Keith's. That's eight for Keith.

I'm not suggesting there's no Mick DNA in the ones Mick sings that I'm calling Keith songs, but they started with Keith certainly. Likewise, Keith's guitar work is stamped indelibly on "Anybody Seen My Baby" which is clearly Mick's song.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 22:29 by Rocky Dijon.

Mick and Keith are still able to write songs, the problem is that the Rolling Stones are a subtle balance of Mick and Keith and the rest of the band ... it's not always easy to find this balance again, especially if they don't all go off together somewhere. It is no coincidence that the last great Stones album, for me a masterpiece, is VL. All together in Ireland in the old house of Ronnie ... a masterpiece !!!

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Rocky Dijon
If it was a question of Keith being difficult, then it's interesting that Steve Jordan, Waddy, and Ivan have no difficulty staying loyal to him. Even with over 20 years between albums, those guys play or cut with Keith pretty regularly. They're actual friends. I'm not certain Keith really has close relationships in the Stones any more. He says nice things about Charlie always, but when did they last hang out? When did Keith last go to one of Charlie's jazz gigs (as he used to)?

That's an interesting point. I think the only person that would consider Keith to be "difficult" might be Mick! But Keith is not difficult in the proper sense of the word, he is just not compatible with Mick's work style in the studio.

Regarding Steven Jordan, Waddy and Ivan it comes across to me that they will gladly let Keith take complete charge of the sessions. Neither of those guys are on equal footing with Keith to take the direction of the music anywhere else besides wherever Keith wants it to go. Unlike how it is with Mick.

Like you say, the egos and the power struggles between the two guys certainly don't help matters...

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Rocky Dijon

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JordyLicks96
This really does seem like a BRIDGES TO BABYLON type situation again between Mick and Keith. Although, this seems to be far worse. I mean when was the last time Keith truly had his flavor on a Stones album? I'd say VOODOO LOUNGE. B2B was basically an all Mick album with 3 Keith songs thrown in

Disagree about B2B, I'd say it's about 50/50. The tracks with the Dust Brothers or Danny Saber or the one started by Babyface are Mick's. That's six tracks and all the singles. The others with just Don Was and Rob Fraboni are Keith's.

The album was born out of two abandoned solo albums in 1996. They then worked on each other's tracks. Something like "Flip the Switch" and "Low Down" or "Too Tight" have Winos blueprints all over them. The sound is all drum and guitar contrasts with those tribal vocals that start with TALK IS CHEAP and peaked with WINGLESS ANGELS. "Anyway You Look At It" with its haunting guitar melody and namecheck for "Point of View" (Keith's home in Jamaica and also referenced in "Make No Mistake") is a Keith song. "Always Suffering" with those vocals and Pierre's close involvement is one of Keith's. That's eight for Keith.

I'm not suggesting there's no Mick DNA in the ones Mick sings that I'm calling Keith songs, but they started with Keith certainly. Likewise, Keith's guitar work is stamped indelibly on "Anybody Seen My Baby" which is clearly Mick's song.

I see what you're saying Rocky. I guess what I'm saying is there hasn't really been a lot of "Classic Keith riff" songs since VOODOO LOUNGE, if that makes any sense. I can only think of "One More Shot" and "Trouble."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-12-05 23:41 by JordyLicks96.

Flip the Switch — Keith riff/chords and most or all the lyrics, as indicated in “Life.”

ASMB - all Mick

Lowdown - Keith riff and title, Mick lyrics

Already Over Me - all Mick

Gunface - all Mick

You Don’t Have to Mean It - all Keith

Out of Control - likely all Mick (key of B, feels like “Mother of a Man” and “Peace for the Wicked” to me, obviously with Temptations thrown in)

Saint of Me - all Mick

Might as Well Get Juiced - all Mick

Always Suffering - all Mick

Too Tight - Keith riff, maybe the title, but rest of lyrics definitely Mick

Thief in the Night - all Keith

How Can I Stop - all Keith

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MelBelli
Flip the Switch — Keith riff/chords and most or all the lyrics, as indicated in “Life.”

ASMB - all Mick

Lowdown - Keith riff and title, Mick lyrics

Already Over Me - all Mick

Gunface - all Mick

You Don’t Have to Mean It - all Keith

Out of Control - likely all Mick (key of B, feels like “Mother of a Man” and “Peace for the Wicked” to me, obviously with Temptations thrown in)

Saint of Me - all Mick

Might as Well Get Juiced - all Mick

Always Suffering - all Mick

Too Tight - Keith riff, maybe the title, but rest of lyrics definitely Mick

Thief in the Night - all Keith

How Can I Stop - all Keith

The album really does feel like 2 solo albums combined to make a Stones album. The Stones are at their best when the Jagger/Richards songwriting team actually work closely together. It sounds like that's yet again the struggle for the new album. Ronnie even kind of said it himself.