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DandelionPowderman


Wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what they did.

I doubt they would just throw away everything. They don't have the energy to create a whole 10 to 12 tracks of new material out of thin air. I think the only challenge left them is their own legacy. Can what's left of what is still called the Rolling Stones compete with their own past?

So much of what was the Rolling Stones was based on chemistry. (Which is why they took a big step down when their bass player quit). If they're not going to use already completed Charlie tracks, we don't even know what a Steve Jordan/Darryl Jones rhythm section would sound like on record. (And god knows if Mick, Keith, or Ron decide to play bass instead.)

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matxil
I think in the movie business, this is called "development hell". In the scientific world, it is comparable to an article that has been rejected too many times and then gets re-edited and re-edited again... At a certain point, it's almost better to throw everything away and start from scratch.

One might ask "what is an album"? In the past, it meant a consistent package of songs that somehow complemented each other to create an overall feeling. Examples are Aftermath, any of the Big Four and later Some Girls, and - oddly enough - even Tattoo You. Of the lesser albums, Steel Wheels fulfills this too. (Dirty Work too, but it's just bad, so lets pretend it never happened.) Of the latter albums, one of the flaws was that they were not consistent units but just a hodge-podge of Mick songs, Keith songs and Stones songs. Even nowadays, in times of Spotify, occasionally albums come out that have this sense of unity (Beyonce comes to mind). The fact that this "new Stones album" has been worked on for so long, is in this sense a very bad sign.

Also, the Stones always were at their best when the outside world gave them a push in the right direction. First it was the blues. Then the Beatles. Later, all the late 60's rock acts like Hendrix etc... Late 70's it was punk and disco. But right now, I don't see anything around that could possibly inspire them. And certainly not Mick and Keith in the same way.

So, no, I still don't expect much from this new album and I'd still rather they wouldn't bother.

Excellent post. It's ridiculous, and selfish for us to expect two dynamic artists to remain best buddies; and that their relation would not evolve, and drift apart over 60 years. especially two people who live in such a cauldron (at times). The big drawback for us is that this very relationship is what gave us their best work. Folks like Don Was, Clifford, Leavell, have come into the picture. They may be many fan's cup of tea, but IMO have not been able to deliver.
Best late era pure Stones sound came from Keith and the Winos. And that "Original Stones music" at age 60 is best exemplified on 'Cross Eyed Heart".

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matxil

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guyrachel
Such a sad message. Sure it’s your opinion, but it is depressing. I can see why you might be a Stones fan, there’s a lot to love, but it surprises me you’re on this board, and you’re not remotely interested in hearing new music seems strange…feels like you want attention more than anything…?

What I want more than anything is Keith making more solo albums. They might not be as great as the best of the Stones' work, but they are certainly more interesting than anything the Stones have been doing since a long time.
And I bet most people on this board hardly ever listen to DW, SW, VL, B2B or ABB.

Those 3 highlighted albums are among the albums I listen to the most by the boys, but then I recognize that I’m an anomaly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-08 22:31 by VoodooLounge13.

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VoodooLounge13

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matxil

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guyrachel
Such a sad message. Sure it’s your opinion, but it is depressing. I can see why you might be a Stones fan, there’s a lot to love, but it surprises me you’re on this board, and you’re not remotely interested in hearing new music seems strange…feels like you want attention more than anything…?

What I want more than anything is Keith making more solo albums. They might not be as great as the best of the Stones' work, but they are certainly more interesting than anything the Stones have been doing since a long time.
And I bet most people on this board hardly ever listen to DW, SW, VL, B2B or ABB.

Those 3 highlighted albums are among the albums I listen to the most by the boys, but the recognize that I’m an anomaly.

To be honest, the last couple of days I have been relistening to "The Song That Shall Not Be Named" (I named it in another IORR thread recently and ruined someone's day with it), from DW, with the idea of covering it and improving the sound of the bass, and that song is rather growing on me.
Still, in an ideal world, Mick would have done his version of that song on his solo album and Keith would have done his' on his solo album.

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matxil
I think in the movie business, this is called "development hell". In the scientific world, it is comparable to an article that has been rejected too many times and then gets re-edited and re-edited again...

There’s an (in pratice) even worse version of developmental hell in science publishing, namey “accepted with minor revisions” in edited volumes, which may likewise bear a certain resemblance to what perhaps has happened regarding the new album. This means, the authors are told that basically their papers are OK, they just have to do a few changes or additions, and depending on how many rounds of peer review there are, this can drag on for many years until the volume is finally published: First, an internal/unofficial round of reviews initiated by the volume editors, then an official round of reviews initiated by the volume editors, then a round of reviews initiated by the series editors, then a round of reviews initiated by the publisher - and perhaps several more rounds (say, the series editors or the publisher have a problem with some aspect of the reviews in one round and commission one or more additional rounds, etc.). - And we have not even reached the stage of copy-editing yet.
So you are told to change something here, make an addition there and and remove the section on X because it is not strictly relevant to the subject and the paper is too long anyway. You comply. In the next round you are told to change something here, make an addition there and also say something about X, because it would improve the paper. So you comply, change something here, add something there and reintroduce some version of the section on X. This game can go on for several years and at some point you lose track of what’s actually in the paper or not, or where. From some point on, the paper is not really improved any longer and it does not become better but only different. Then also there are several authors involved in the volume and not everyone adheres to the proposed deadlines, which again isn’t sppeding up things.

Now, artistic choices cannot fully be compared to changes in academic papers. But certain mechanisms and proceedings might be quite similar: There’s a bunch of songs that is basically OK, it just needs a bit more work. - So let’s kick this song out, let’s keep that song but do some changes. -Hey, I’ve got a new song that should be included in the album. - But the album is getting to long, and if we include the new song some other song has to go. - Or: The new song is too similar to one of the ones we already have. - Now some overdubs should be done. - But there’s no time this year, so maybe in the Spring of next year. Then a tour gets in the way, or the holday season, and so on and so forth. Considering it’s not only Mick and Keith but at some point also Ronnie is needed, or Charlie (or, nowadays, Steve), or even Chuck or Darryl, who also may have other commitments, it is easy to see how things may drag along almost infinitely. And from some point on, the album does not become a better album but just a different one.

After B&L came out, Keith said in an interview something to the effect that he hopes the experience gained in the three days of recording B&L will change the further approach in recording the new album. At the time it was not really clear (to me, at least) what he meant but meanwhile I think he hoped for adopting the approach of getting a bunch of songs and just recording them quickly without much further adoo. We will possibly never learn if they tried that and it didn’t work out (or if they did, what the results were) but meanwhile it is clear that whatever Keith had in mind, it didn’t really come to fruition as we still don’t have the album yet. But regarding all the forth and back and starting afresh with Steve, my impression is that we could easily have had two interesting and possibly quite different new albums in the meanwhile.

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matxil

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guyrachel
Such a sad message. Sure it’s your opinion, but it is depressing. I can see why you might be a Stones fan, there’s a lot to love, but it surprises me you’re on this board, and you’re not remotely interested in hearing new music seems strange…feels like you want attention more than anything…?

What I want more than anything is Keith making more solo albums. They might not be as great as the best of the Stones' work, but they are certainly more interesting than anything the Stones have been doing since a long time.
And I bet most people on this board hardly ever listen to DW, SW, VL, B2B or ABB.

Bridges to Babylon is a masterpiece, especially if you include the outtakes 20 Nil, Dream About,Sanctuary, Desperate Man, and Prairie Love. We need a super deluxe of that one!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-10 05:13 by donvis.

OOOwwwww yeah 20 Nil slays me ....



ROCKMAN

Oh, I sincerely hope they spare us from "masterpieces" like 20 Nil that should really be named "20 x Nil = 0, Zero, Nothing (6 Minutes Of Mindless Directionless 2 Chord Riffing)" on the new album!

...stick with the merry-go-round ....
Best ya dont take the ghost train ....HHHHaaa



ROCKMAN

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donvis

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matxil

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guyrachel
Such a sad message. Sure it’s your opinion, but it is depressing. I can see why you might be a Stones fan, there’s a lot to love, but it surprises me you’re on this board, and you’re not remotely interested in hearing new music seems strange…feels like you want attention more than anything…?

What I want more than anything is Keith making more solo albums. They might not be as great as the best of the Stones' work, but they are certainly more interesting than anything the Stones have been doing since a long time.
And I bet most people on this board hardly ever listen to DW, SW, VL, B2B or ABB.

Bridges to Babylon is a masterpiece, especially if you include the outtakes 20 Nil, Dream About, and Prairie Love. We need a super deluxe of that one!!!!

Agree 100%, Bridges and Bigger Bang are two of my most played Stones albums, I'd be absolutely thrilled to get another album of that kind of length and quality.

I've been spinning Bridges a lot in the past year, esp after that outtakes dump; some excellent songs and performances on it. Recently had Always suffering on replay .... a really nice country ballad

B2B I don't think gets the love on here that it deserves. Even containing the ONLY song in their entire catalog that I legitimately skip - MAWGJ - to me it is still a very strong, cohesive album. Their last great one, and as I've said previously, a latter day masterpiece. If we got that part 2, I'd be thrilled to death!!!

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Rockman
...stick with the merry-go-round ....
Best ya dont take the ghost train ....HHHHaaa

Your reply actually resembles 20 Nil - doesn't sound exactly inspired!

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VoodooLounge13
B2B I don't think gets the love on here that it deserves. Even containing the ONLY song in their entire catalog that I legitimately skip - MAWGJ - to me it is still a very strong, cohesive album. Their last great one, and as I've said previously, a latter day masterpiece. If we got that part 2, I'd be thrilled to death!!!

Really! To me the very best part of BRIDGES TO BABYLON is exactly the sequence of songs with contrasting styles, "Saint of Me", " Might As Well Get Juiced" and "Always Suffering".

I love on Flip The Switch how you can clearly tell it's Keith's lyrics that Mick is singing. Amazing song.

Agree that Juiced is the only skipper on there. Apart from that, absolutely incredible album.

I too LOVE Might as Well Get Juiced... that stop-start stuff at the end, the harp, the treated vocals.

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WorriedAboutYou
I love on Flip The Switch how you can clearly tell it's Keith's lyrics that Mick is singing. Amazing song.

Agreed. But I prefer the live version on No Security, which really breathes whereas the B2B Version sounds still, how to put it?, new and therefore strictly adhering to the rules.

Likewise, the live Version of You Got Me Rocking on No Secutity comes across much more - well, lively than the studio version. No Security is overall a great live album, and the Stones live album I listen to the most often.

MSWGJ is a guilty pleasure for me.

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Rocky Dijon
Looking back on the past three decades, I wish they had made more Stones albums and solo albums and done less touring. Purely selfish, but I'll always wish there had been more songs to enjoy or critique.

The thing about bitching about setlists or sidemen or arrangements is we can choose not to go a concert.

The thing about wishing they wouldn't make a new album at all is we can choose not to buy it or stream it.

Both are a matter of opting out and not minding that others, least of all the artists, might think otherwise.

Wanting more, I understand out of pure selfish greed. Wishing someone wouldn't bother at all is a bit more possessive where you want them to think like you do. Maxtil really just wanted Keith to leave and go solo. That's not the same as wanting to control them, he just gravitated toward one aging Glimmer Twin more than the other and was disenchanted with compromise masquerading as collaboration when they worked together. I can respect that even though Mick with or without The Stones is still capable of surprising me as much as I may feel alienated by some of the material.

Such is the dilemma of a number of aging fans of geriatric rockers.

Excellent post and well said!!!!

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Rockman
OOOwwwww yeah 20 Nil slays me ....

So Rockman you did or did not like 20 Nil? I can’t tell if that is sincerity or sarcasm. No worries either way.

Played it for days ....
Like a blues never heard before ...

Sounds like it comes from far beneath the ground ....



ROCKMAN

The joy of conversing with Terry is he genuinely talks like the greatest liner notes of decades past. Informed, funny, hip, and accessible provided that you can keep up pace, keep an open mind, and don't take anything too seriously but his passion for music. He is kindhearted, generous, opinionated, and very self-aware while doing everything possible to convince you otherwise by playing a role so well it's easy to forget there's a real person behind the mask. Therein is where many people get hung up by (and are sometimes unconscionably cruel to) our flesh and blood Rockman.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-10 05:41 by Rocky Dijon.

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Rocky Dijon
Looking back on the past three decades, I wish they had made more Stones albums and solo albums and done less touring. Purely selfish, but I'll always wish there had been more songs to enjoy or critique.

The thing about bitching about setlists or sidemen or arrangements is we can choose not to go a concert.

The thing about wishing they wouldn't make a new album at all is we can choose not to buy it or stream it.

Both are a matter of opting out and not minding that others, least of all the artists, might think otherwise.

Wanting more, I understand out of pure selfish greed. Wishing someone wouldn't bother at all is a bit more possessive where you want them to think like you do. Maxtil really just wanted Keith to leave and go solo. That's not the same as wanting to control them, he just gravitated toward one aging Glimmer Twin more than the other and was disenchanted with compromise masquerading as collaboration when they worked together. I can respect that even though Mick with or without The Stones is still capable of surprising me as much as I may feel alienated by some of the material.

Such is the dilemma of a number of aging fans of geriatric rockers.

It might be a bit more simple than that - just wishing for new music as they enjoy making it, with the observant reality being that it seems that Keith enjoys it more than Mick.

When he does, anyway.

Wow. I come on here and BTB is being praised. It is an oddity. The production experiments are dated. It's not a very 'Stonesy' record. I never listen to it. To me Steel Wheels is the last real Stones album. Not an A album, but a good B Plus. No great single, but over all a great effort with the real band.

I've always found a cut or two on every Stones album Post Wyman. Plus the odd singles like Ghost Town and Doom and Gloom. None of them come up to the level of the Golden Age Stones (1963-1990). It would be interesting to only know the band by their Post Wyman output. My ears just aren't trained that way.

Fanks Bill lovely words .....

Was someone cruel ta me ???? .... have ya got dar number ...????



ROCKMAN

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24FPS
Wow. I come on here and BTB is being praised. It is an oddity. The production experiments are dated. It's not a very 'Stonesy' record. I never listen to it. To me Steel Wheels is the last real Stones album. Not an A album, but a good B Plus. No great single, but over all a great effort with the real band.

I've always found a cut or two on every Stones album Post Wyman. Plus the odd singles like Ghost Town and Doom and Gloom. None of them come up to the level of the Golden Age Stones (1963-1990). It would be interesting to only know the band by their Post Wyman output. My ears just aren't trained that way.

I’ve actually got high praise for that one as well, with its phenomenal Gered-shot cover and Ruby Tuesday, my all-time favorite Stones song and LSTNT, it’s a real classic album. Though I admit I prefer the UK version for My Obesession, Connection, Back Street Girl, and Yesterday’s Papers.

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VoodooLounge13

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24FPS
Wow. I come on here and BTB is being praised. It is an oddity. The production experiments are dated. It's not a very 'Stonesy' record. I never listen to it. To me Steel Wheels is the last real Stones album. Not an A album, but a good B Plus. No great single, but over all a great effort with the real band.

I've always found a cut or two on every Stones album Post Wyman. Plus the odd singles like Ghost Town and Doom and Gloom. None of them come up to the level of the Golden Age Stones (1963-1990). It would be interesting to only know the band by their Post Wyman output. My ears just aren't trained that way.

I’ve actually got high praise for that one as well, with its phenomenal Gered-shot cover and Ruby Tuesday, my all-time favorite Stones song and LSTNT, it’s a real classic album. Though I admit I prefer the UK version for My Obesession, Connection, Back Street Girl, and Yesterday’s Papers.

I meant Bridges To Babylon. (Unless you're pulling my leg).

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24FPS

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VoodooLounge13

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24FPS
Wow. I come on here and BTB is being praised. It is an oddity. The production experiments are dated. It's not a very 'Stonesy' record. I never listen to it. To me Steel Wheels is the last real Stones album. Not an A album, but a good B Plus. No great single, but over all a great effort with the real band.

I've always found a cut or two on every Stones album Post Wyman. Plus the odd singles like Ghost Town and Doom and Gloom. None of them come up to the level of the Golden Age Stones (1963-1990). It would be interesting to only know the band by their Post Wyman output. My ears just aren't trained that way.

I’ve actually got high praise for that one as well, with its phenomenal Gered-shot cover and Ruby Tuesday, my all-time favorite Stones song and LSTNT, it’s a real classic album. Though I admit I prefer the UK version for My Obesession, Connection, Back Street Girl, and Yesterday’s Papers.

I meant Bridges To Babylon. (Unless you're pulling my leg).

Instead of pulling of legs, this concerns a correct identification of the abbreviations BTB and B2B, as that distinction has been introduced here.

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24FPS
Wow. I come on here and BTB is being praised. It is an oddity. The production experiments are dated. It's not a very 'Stonesy' record.

It sounds like you haven't given Bridges a proper chance. Listen to Too Tight, for example, that is one of the most "Stonsey" sounding songs of their entire career. The guitars and sublime percussion during the intro, the timing of all that would not have been possible without Charlie and Keith, the slashing chords when Jagger comes in, the key change when the piano kicks in during the third verse, that song is such a Stonsey rush.

The production experiments don't sound dated at all to me, I think you're misremembering. They sound distinctive and appropriate for the songs and give the album flavour, but don't age it horribly or make it sound of its time. It's a Stones album without doubt that has its own identity and character.

Easily, easily above Some Girls, Tattoo You, even perhaps above Goats Head Soup for me. Classic album. Get into it.

BRIDGES TO BABYLON would be much better with fewer songs, which makes it typical of the band’s later work
Remove anybody seen my baby, always suffering and too tight, and you have a pretty solid album.
If only the band had taken the same approach a few years earlier, then some of the great songs that made it onto Wandering Spirit and main offender
could have graced a full band album.