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jlowe
At least Mick and Keith appear to have a better personal and working relationship together than Roger Waters and David Gilmour.
Well, just about, anyway.

Yes indeed jlowe - it's more of a democracy (Keith and Mick) than a dictatorship (Roger Waters). Can't imagine either Keith or Mick doing the Waters thing ala "it's my way or the highway"...
Maybe there was an attempt at that in the past by one or the other, but it resulted in solo albums instead of one completely dominating the direction of a Stones album.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-02 18:37 by Hairball.

Well, that's generally why M+K do their solo albums, right? When they want to be their own boss, they do their own album. I play in a bunch of bands, and one of them is called 'The Moaning Sallys' (see "us" on Spotify or iTunes!! Shameless plug!!), but the Moaning Sallys is really just me. I love not having to run stuff by other band members. I AM the other band members, so if the bass line sucks, I don't have to sheepishly avoid offending anybody, I just redo it. I think deep down inside, we've all got our 'own album to do.' And then after it's always nice to get back with other musicians and work on other projects, etc.

I am not interested in what you do Tate.
Jeroen

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Tate
Well, that's generally why M+K do their solo albums, right? When they want to be their own boss, they do their own album. I play in a bunch of bands, and one of them is called 'The Moaning Sallys' (see "us" on Spotify or iTunes!! Shameless plug!!), but the Moaning Sallys is really just me. I love not having to run stuff by other band members. I AM the other band members, so if the bass line sucks, I don't have to sheepishly avoid offending anybody, I just redo it. I think deep down inside, we've all got our 'own album to do.' And then after it's always nice to get back with other musicians and work on other projects, etc.

Jfo Tate
Jeroen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-02 21:01 by corriecas.

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Rocky Dijon
The Wall is symbolic of the mental block fans have in accepting these are men in their seventies. They want to contrast Mick's present creative drive with GODDESS IN THE DOORWAY, an album written and recorded when Mick was in his fifties. Think about that for a moment. Think of someone in their fifties vs. someone who is 75. Try and let that sink in. It does matter. They are old. It doesn't matter how great of shape they're in and that they're able to perform a concert 14 nights out of 365. They are old men. Their priorities are different. Their identity isn't as a band, it's as four individuals with interests and families of their own. They still work together and are rewarded amazingly for doing so, but their priorities aren't what fans would want it to be and they can't be held to the standard they were capable of in their fifties, forties, or thirties. We had someone contrasting their productivity in the 1980s to now just recently. Think how insane that is. In January 1980, Mick and Keith were 36 years old. Someone wants to compare what people could do between 36 and 46 years of age with the same people at 75. There are times I think the place is a madhouse.

So while you agree with me on one of my posts that probably due to Micks age he might be struggling to come up with the goods and writing Stones songs is probably not his bag now, you go on to say this place is a mad house because i pointed out the production from Mick in a ten year space in his 40's compared to the 14 year gap since he was 60 years old to present day. Mick hasn't given the impression he wants to write Stones type songs for 14 years now.

So while you agree with me you think i'm mad at the same time

On the other hand the same cannot be said for his glimmer twin, Keith did quite well recently with Crosseyed Heart, most Stones fans and about 80% of reviewers were of the opinion Keith still has his creative muse intact.

It's only my opinion, but i don't think Keith fakes being a rock & roller, he only creates what is inside of him, he doesn't second guess his audience or try to appeal to a younger audience, he is authentic, the real deal and i think this is one of the reasons he still possess his genius, he has said on many occasions, " be careful what you listen too because it will come out of you when you write".

I think if you are true to yourself age is just a number, but if you are going to try to fit in with trends you will get called out. Just saying.

It’s quite simple in my book. Mick is great and his solo albums are just too polished for stones diehards who view Exile as the rock n roll bible. Keith is great but his solo albums may not be polished enough for general listeners. When the two put their best foot forward and have a unified vision or compromise is when the true stones magic appears in my book. Lots of great songs post 1981 but inconsistent products as a whole.

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Bashlets
It’s quite simple in my book. Mick is great and his solo albums are just too polished for stones diehards who view Exile as the rock n roll bible. Keith is great but his solo albums may not be polished enough for general listeners. When the two put their best foot forward and have a unified vision or compromise is when the true stones magic appears in my book. Lots of great songs post 1981 but inconsistent products as a whole.

I seem to remember you being blown away and emotional about how good Crosseyed heart was when it came out ?
There are some 250 pages on iorr somewhere on here with most people loving it and sharing the experience of listening to songs like Suspicious and Just A Gift.
So now its underpolished ?
I played it yesterday and thought it was better than ever, its stood the test of time imho.

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keithsman
I wish Don Was had been a bit more specific about the wall they hit, its been so slow since he mentioned or hinted at Mick hitting a wall. Ok we got B&L as a result of the wall, but i'm getting the impression there is a real problem with Mick coming up with the goods, what if he really can't create at that level anymore, or that he can create like GGAG and England Lost, but he just can't make Stones songs anymore, its possible and understandable at his age.
I just don't think its his bag these days.

Two posters have been addressed as Riffie, you, Keithman, and stone4ever. Possibly I make take it that both usernames represent the same person.

In the quote you refer rather unprecisely to Don Was giving out that a wall was hit by either them or by Mick only.

It is interesting then that on page 3 of an old thread
[iorr.org]
eventually in a PS on the 26th of December, 2017 at 02:05 the username stone4ever admitted
"PS. Sorry Witness, you are correct, Don Was said they hit a wall, not specifically Mick hit a wall. I stand corrected thankyou.

I suppose we can only assume Mick and Keith hit a wall but that still means Mick hit a wall."

Why then go on using Don Was as a source for your own assumption that Mick hit a wall?

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keithsman
So while you agree with me you think i'm mad at the same time
I think if you are true to yourself age is just a number, but if you are going to try to fit in with trends you will get called out. Just saying.

I think iorr is a madhouse for many reasons. The ability of politics to invade nearly every thread is one. Fan expectations on productivity at age 75 (or older, in Charlie's case) is another reason. I don't mean to suggest I'm rational and sane. I've been here nearly every day for something like 20 years.

I don't think you're particularly mad, keithsman, despite referencing one of your posts. For the record, I don't agree with you at all that Mick has writer's block and Keith doesn't. I will, however, defend you to my last breath on "if you are going to try to fit in with trends, you will get called out." That is both well-said and well-observed.

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Witness

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keithsman
I wish Don Was had been a bit more specific about the wall they hit, its been so slow since he mentioned or hinted at Mick hitting a wall. Ok we got B&L as a result of the wall, but i'm getting the impression there is a real problem with Mick coming up with the goods, what if he really can't create at that level anymore, or that he can create like GGAG and England Lost, but he just can't make Stones songs anymore, its possible and understandable at his age.
I just don't think its his bag these days.

Two posters have been addressed as Riffie, you, Keithman, and stone4ever. Possibly I make take it that both usernames represent the same person.

In the quote you refer rather unprecisely to Don Was giving out that a wall was hit by either them or by Mick only.

It is interesting then that on page 3 of an old thread
[iorr.org]
eventually in a PS on the 26th of December, 2017 at 02:05 the username stone4ever admitted
"PS. Sorry Witness, you are correct, Don Was said they hit a wall, not specifically Mick hit a wall. I stand corrected thankyou.

I suppose we can only assume Mick and Keith hit a wall but that still means Mick hit a wall."

Why then go on using Don Was as a source for your own assumption that Mick hit a wall?

Stone4ever is a hideous sounding user name Riffy is my nick name, it's not a user name. Keithsman will do just fine thanks.

It's like i said earlier today Witness, the wall might have been Keith, i don't think Keith wants to go down a different road musically this late in the day, Mick likes to stay more current and has one eye on the charts and might be a bit tired of Stones type music, who knows, but i'm betting Mick came at Keith with GGAG & England Lost and a few other demos and Keith wasn't buying any of it.
Its speculation on my part, but that is what we do here most the time on this particular thread, we speculate things like where the hell is that album, the good thing is i get a feeling now that it might surprise us, its going to be terrible or fantastic hehe.

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Bashlets
It’s quite simple in my book. Mick is great and his solo albums are just too polished for stones diehards who view Exile as the rock n roll bible. Keith is great but his solo albums may not be polished enough for general listeners. When the two put their best foot forward and have a unified vision or compromise is when the true stones magic appears in my book. Lots of great songs post 1981 but inconsistent products as a whole.

I've started etching this in marble. Well said.

This would make a mighty fine cover for the new album if I do say so myself.
And imagine a brick Stones tongue superimposed and protruding from the wall....

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doitywoik
The nature of the brick wall is possibly known, the following picture is said to have been leaked:

Or similar to this great piece from artist Emmanuel Argier located in France- superimpose the Stones faces onto the wall...Keith, Mick, Charlie, and Ronnie...I can see it now.



_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Love Crosseyed Heart and I stick by my assessment. Best overall Stones related product since 1981 but it’s not the stones. It’s KEEF, just like I really like wandering spirit but it’s not the stones- it’s mick

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Bashlets
Love Crosseyed Heart and I stick by my assessment. Best overall Stones related product since 1981 but it’s not the stones. It’s KEEF, just like I really like wandering spirit but it’s not the stones- it’s mick

Its all good Bashlets although i can't agree , Crosseyed Heart is polished to perfection, 16 tracks and not a dud among them, great vocals from Keith too.

I agree with you about one thing, it's the best Stones related product since Tattoo You

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keithsman

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Witness

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keithsman
I wish Don Was had been a bit more specific about the wall they hit, its been so slow since he mentioned or hinted at Mick hitting a wall. Ok we got B&L as a result of the wall, but i'm getting the impression there is a real problem with Mick coming up with the goods, what if he really can't create at that level anymore, or that he can create like GGAG and England Lost, but he just can't make Stones songs anymore, its possible and understandable at his age.
I just don't think its his bag these days.

Two posters have been addressed as Riffie, you, Keithman, and stone4ever. Possibly I make take it that both usernames represent the same person.

In the quote you refer rather unprecisely to Don Was giving out that a wall was hit by either them or by Mick only.

It is interesting then that on page 3 of an old thread
[iorr.org]
eventually in a PS on the 26th of December, 2017 at 02:05 the username stone4ever admitted
"PS. Sorry Witness, you are correct, Don Was said they hit a wall, not specifically Mick hit a wall. I stand corrected thankyou.

I suppose we can only assume Mick and Keith hit a wall but that still means Mick hit a wall."

Why then go on using Don Was as a source for your own assumption that Mick hit a wall?

Stone4ever is a hideous sounding user name Riffy is my nick name, it's not a user name. Keithsman will do just fine thanks.

It's like i said earlier today Witness, the wall might have been Keith, i don't think Keith wants to go down a different road musically this late in the day, Mick likes to stay more current and has one eye on the charts and might be a bit tired of Stones type music, who knows, but i'm betting Mick came at Keith with GGAG & England Lost and a few other demos and Keith wasn't buying any of it.
Its speculation on my part, but that is what we do here most the time on this particular thread, we speculate things like where the hell is that album, the good thing is i get a feeling now that it might surprise us, its going to be terrible or fantastic hehe.

Out of the various versions of your points of views, I choose to relate to the current one, that I quoted. My impression is rather that Mick has not got such a narrow understanding of what Rolling Stones music might comprise and would like to expand it as a contrasting interpretation to yours. When Keith has vetoed some of his song ideas, you give out that Mick is unable to create Rolling Stones music. In that case, there probably would not be a basis for a Rolling Stones album, contrary to rumours and seeming reports. It cannot be Keith songs exclusively.

Probably many IORR'ians agree with you that Mick's two songs were not that good, and quite many liked CROSSEYED HEART. However, not anybody thinks quite so. Among the latter, I don't. I really appreciated Mick's two songs, whereas I find Keith's album in its way maybe quite good, but most of all somewhat sterile and rather boring. Still I have made myself listen to it approximately thirty times in all. I do hope though that the coming Rolling Stones will be more rewarding than Keith's album and well worth the long wait. Maybe Mick also can stimulate Keith to come up with better contributions to a Stones album, more worthy of Keith's great past, in that respect in addition to Mick's songs.

I for one hope that Mick some time after the release of the Rolling Stones studio album, will release an album of songs that Keith vetoed.

The interesting thing to me is I can agree with an isolated statement by Bashlets, for example, but not agree with other conclusions drawn by the same individual. That's what makes the sharing of opinions entertaining or sometimes enlightening.

For Mick, I love WANDERING SPIRIT and rank PRIMITIVE COOL higher than most. For Keith, I think TALK IS CHEAP and MAIN OFFENDER are terrific (despite his limitations) and while still impressed with the overall quality of CROSSEYED HEART, I don't think it ever approaches his first two solo efforts. I like a number of songs throughout their solo catalogs, but generally agree they need one another (while understanding that is still an over-simplification).

I was hoping for a Mick solo album in the absence of a Stones album, it's a surprise to me that Mick has held on to these demos for so long without releasing anything with them on.
In various interviews over the last ten years or so Mick has said that he is frequently writing, this is at odds with the lack of releases from Mick.
Ok so there isn't much money in making albums these days, and he did work with Dave Stewart on some good tracks like Old Habits Die Hard, he also did his thing with Super Heavy but i would have preferred a solo album from him, Wondering Spirit was a really good album and it left us wanting more but we never got it.

So yeah disappointed with the amount of product from Mick in particular, something has happened , it's not like him to take a back seat and i genuinely thought Crosseyed Heart might have jolted him into action, but the reverse seems to have happened, it's as though he is intimidated by it.

It seems that Mick recently has been motivated anew to make a Rolling Stones album. Then what has prevented him, appears to have been vetoed by Keith. I find thoughts that he would be intimidated by CROSSEYED HEART as strange. The reception to that album by some record buyers may have increased Keith's stubbornness further though.

Edits: My mobile tries to correct what I write, both when I have made errors in my writing, and when I have not. I did not notice that "rececption" had been "corrected" to "exception". And even once more. And my clumsy fingers hit an s instead of an d on the mobiler.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-03 15:06 by Witness.

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Witness
It seems that Mick recently has been motivated anew to make a Rolling Stones album. Then what has prevented him, appears to have been vetoes by Keith. I find thoughts that he would be intimidated by CROSSEYED HEART as strange. The exception to that album by some rekord buyers may have increased Keith's stubbornness further though.

I don't know about that, maybe Keith wanted more collaboration from Mick on this album, perhaps Keith didn't want Mick coming in with almost finished demos, you can tell by Keith's "IVE GOT THREE KILLER RIFFS" attitude that Keith might have shunned Micks pre worked efforts prior to making the album.
It's my guess that Keith wanted this album to be more Mick and Keith woven songs as opposed to Micks songs with Keith playing on them and visa versa.
Its really interesting to see what this album offers when it's released, how will it play out, it might well be a great collaboration after all.

PS. What i mean about Mick being intimidated by CH, is that no one including myself though Keith was still capable of making an album of 16 songs like that, ok to some its a snooze fest and i admit its lacking in blistering guitar solo's and high tempos, and maybe Keith was still a bit rusty when he started to make it, but it offers some really well crafted and heartfelt songs. Was Mick intimidated by it ? if Mick is struggling a bit creatively, would seeing his rival and the man he has had a power struggle with doing such a good job effect him, is it not possible that Mick thinks to himself, i don't know if i want to go in the studio with nothing planned and trade with Keith, what if Keith is a bit more spontaneous than me, what if i can't match him in every department, its an ego thing, its hard to explain. Mick has to be top dog, what if he isn't. That's the point in time that the wall might have reared its ugly head.

Well Keithsmen i think you hit the wall to often.To many bumps

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harlem shuffle
Well Keithsmen i think you hit the wall to often.To many bumps

Too true, that's enough from me for a while, see you on the flip side.

No Brickwalling! No brick walls on the digital songs. Brick walls = Bad
Right Gas Light Street?

I can’t keep up with this thread but saw ‘comparisons’ Keith vocal (always puts his heart in it, that you Riffy? Ya, good one)
Compared to Mick.
You can not compare to Mick’s vocal. It stands alone in sound forever.
It is so far gone, anyone attempting an ‘Exile’ cover vocal...well, no just don’t.
The noise his vocal cords make is distinctive trademark.
There is no ‘better’ ‘worse’
2 different things. (Another layer of RS greatness.)
I’ve been in love/ played over over over
‘Before They Make Me Run’
‘You Got The Silver’
‘Happy’


So, whatever the boys got, I’m ready

[www.youtube.com]
Connection - The Rolling Stones

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keithsman
I don't know about that, maybe Keith wanted more collaboration from Mick on this album, perhaps Keith didn't want Mick coming in with almost finished demos, you can tell by Keith's "IVE GOT THREE KILLER RIFFS" attitude that Keith might have shunned Micks pre worked efforts prior to making the album.
It's my guess that Keith wanted this album to be more Mick and Keith woven songs as opposed to Micks songs with Keith playing on them and visa versa.

The above quote I think is very likely a good assessment. The part about Mick being intimidated by CROSSEYED HEART is not very likely. I think Universal treated both Keith's album and Mick's single as litmus tests for the market. BLUE AND LONESOME was the oddball that exceeded everyone's expectations. Since then, there's probably been some head-scratching and lots of opinions from different corners (Don, Carl Falk, among others). The fact that we're not getting another blues album or a soul album or a country album is a good sign, though Universal may second guess that decision if the album's reception is less than stellar. If they're smart, they'll push the idea that BLUE AND LONESOME reinvigorated the band to make the new album and have Mick and Keith and Ronnie and Don repeat the message everywhere until the public accepts it as Gospel.

(I fell asleep while writing)

I don't think at all that Mick is in the need to be "a top dog" in collaboration with others, like you will have it, keithsman. SuperHeavy appears as an illustrating example of the opposite of such an impression. But it may be that the very narrowness of Keith more recently as to what Rolling Stones music may comprise, somehow in marked contrast to the Keith of the more distant past, instead of Keith being Mick's ideal partner of creation, to some extent may have turned collaboration with Keith into an eternal fight for control for Mick. However, for that matter I can hardly consider CROSSEYED HEART as intimidating as such for Mick, only, with the tendency of that album, as an reminder of that possibly sad fact. The question is, however, if they during the last months from time to time may have bypassed any such description of their working relationship.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-03 07:12 by Witness.

How can an album filled with soul, country, rock'n'roll, reggae, ballads and blues be associated with narrowness?

Narrowness is relatively speaking, compared to what Mick wants to do. Illustrated by Keith's attitude towards "Gotta Get a Grip" / "England Lost", excluding those songs as not Rolling Stones music, according to his definition.

Over time there developed from years of development so to speak a trademark for what Rolling Stones music may comprise. Keith after a certain point in time has wanted to create music within that trademark, Mick's disposition is to still expand the boundaries for that trademark by some songs.

Tracks like Amnesia and Substantial Damage are anything but narrowness, Keith can't be accused if being stuck in a mold, he comes out with funky fresh tracks as well as all the above. Sometimes i actually wonder if some posters have actually listened to CH properly.

I made the mistake if playing Micks solo albums once or twice when i purchased them and put them down in protest because they didn't have Keith on them lol.
Then a while ago on a thread on iorr discussing Micks solo albums i began to start playing them again and realized they were far better than i imagined or remembered. Plenty of great melody's and some very good tracks.

I think people in the Mick camp do the same with Keith's albums, because Mick isn't singing on them they dismiss them, but if they actually imagine Mick singing those songs they might realize that they are very good musically and creatively.

Micks the Rock and Keith is the Roll is not actually an accurate description, they are in my opinion more alike musically than we think, some of the excuses we make for them not getting along musically are wrong, its more a battle of egos than musical differences, Keith once said once you perceive something as a power struggle you have a power struggle.
We as fans get drawn into that same power struggle, but it might not be what it appears with the glimmers, deep down they are still two halves of the same whole. I just hope they have both woken up to that idea before it's too late. Ultimately if they make great music together it's always going to count for more than anything they do separately.
Having said that at this stage i would rather receive a good solo album from either of them than another BTB or ABB, what's needed now is for both of them to bring there A game to the table for the Stones, not saving the best for a Solo album, i think this is what's been happening since 1984, they have been keeping the best for themselves.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-03 14:31 by keithsman.

I think people put too much into Keith's "being prolific doesn't mean shit"-quote.

The reporter could have talked about Mick's 40 demos too enthusiastically, and Keith may have wanted to get him down on his feet again - by simply saying that it's never the amount of songs that counts.

We don't even know which songs Keith approved or loved. It's all speculation.

Keith thought songs like Continental Drift and Moon Is Up were interesting. In fact, the latter song was his!

So let's not jump to conclusions, based on no info at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-11-03 14:41 by DandelionPowderman.

I based some of the contents of my posts here on Keith's verdict of Mick's recent two songs. That must be seen as legitimate, at least until that saying will be said to be inauthentic.

I confronted some quotes from keithsman. The problem for me thereby is that he has got a whole series of various views points, not all quite consistent, to fall back upon. But not withdrawing clearly an earlier quote, when he presents another different one. By the way, I have been through CROSSEYED HEART thirty times in all spread over months, sometimes only listening to a few tracks from where I left it on the earlier occasion. That is really several times more than many posters listen to Stones-related music, which does not please them too much. By the way, I have not the same views on TALK IS CHEAP if I am read as a consistent anti-Keith poster. Keith's first solo album I find excellent.