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Am I the only one here who likes Keys, Stealing My Heart and to a lesser degree (the rather light-weight) Don't Stop (I find the guitar sound of that song appealing) ? The track I dont like very much is Keith's song, Losing My Touch. Those four songs were the sole reason for buying the 40 Licks cd anyway, for me. Completist that I try to be, I didnt bother to get the GRRR cd set, although I think One More Shot is a pretty decent song.
Having listened to the leaked 2002 songs I feel more confident that they actually should be able to come up with a listenable new album.
__________________________________
Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love are the strongest tracks. They aren't 110% Stones album ready but they were good enough for a greatest hits thigs . but just barley.
Don't Stop is still a good tune though .. better than Highwire. I listen to it now and again .. a happy ... feel good song.
You might have to turn in your Rolling Stones Fan Membership card after posting evil thoughts like these!
Just kidding of course, but I should mention that if you're ever over to my studio for a beer/bbq/ Stones listening party - the last person who mentioned Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love was banned forever lol.
DON'T STOP...cheers Ian
...!!! 
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
I have no statistical data as to who among the IORRians, or the posters in this thread, likes those songs, or finds them passable, or dislikes them. Also, that's everybody's personal affair. See it that way: When a bunch of guys find out they like or dislike the same things (here, songs), they talk about it. That's what is happening here with respect to these songs. My advice: if you really like those songs, don't pay too much attention to our ranting. Rather turn up your stereo and enjoy them! 
I'm with you regarding Losing My Touch. Keith could have made a better effort. To me, it's just run-off-the-mill tinkling that could well have stayed in the archive.
It was the sole reason for me as well, and possibly for many if not most fans (if they bought it at all). After (at that time) 5 years since the last album I was ready to take any breadcrumb they would throw me ...
I tried hard to like the songs but failed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 02:06 by doitywoik.
Haha, that's a good advice and that's how things should go like! Unfortunately, in a discussion group like ours the things aren't always that simple in practise. I learned that when CROSSEYED HEART - a kind of Second Coming of Jesus for some folks here - was released. There was this long thread full of appraisal of the album, and I made the mistake of 'spoiling the party' there with my not-so-appraisal-like remarks, since I didn't hear the awesomeness most of the people were hearing there. A horrible experience altogether, and I mostly blame myself for that. Since then I've decided to keep the critical thoughts within myself, and only tend to say something if I have something 'positive' to say (I am not any purist in that sense, like in any other, so I might say something about critical occasionally). Fortunately all the Stones-related stuff released since then - the blues album, Jagger's solo single - has been easy ones for me to be positive about.
Generally, it is the social psychological effect in places like ours doing some twisted tricks occasionally. It doesn't need to be many folks, but if those folks love a bit too much their own opinions, they tend to repeat them again and again, and there are some other folks sharing the opinions, and doing the same, adding more fuel to the tank, the whole atmosphere is soon pretty much domimated by those opinions, no matter how little actual 'support' there actually is for them (I know I've been one of those 'guilty ones' here traditionally, with all those talks about 'Vegas Era' and everything). With that remark I wasn't referring to that CROSSEYED HEART thread, since there was actually a rather strong consensus about the quality of the album, only a couple of us differing from the mainstream stance.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 03:51 by Doxa.
Sure you're not confusing this with One Hit To The Body? I can't recall any "So help me God" in OMS - or is that somewhere in the fade-out?
Maybe they should have shared vocal duties. To me, the intro verse ("Ooh baby, I got a message for you ...") still cries out for Keith to sing it. Farther into the song things could be seen differently. Singing the chorus together ("Give me one more shot ...") could have sounded cool, for example. The crucifixion part wouldn't fit Keith. I was already wondering if that part was perhaps Mick's contribution to the song.
@Teddy,
that's an interesting aspect (that I didn't really think of) - the mix. What if Mick's voice weren't processed but just his natural voice, and if he sang it without his usual manierisms? Might well make a difference. I wish we could compare the Grrr version to the Winos' version.
Well in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different way and without fighting and by trying to make it clear, and by considering each and every one's opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.
JumpingKentFlash
Micks has changed as well, but when considering the two together, one could still enhance/balance out the other. Some of Micks vocals on B&L were pretty darn good, while at other times it was a bit forced and almost contrived. Keith's voice on his own has never been "pretty" or really even "great" when compared to the truly great Rock and roll singers of all time (including Mick in his prime), but it is definitely unique and maybe a few more cigarettes could fix that lol. Put the two together of them together in a locked room, and maybe the magic will reappear as it did in the old days. Maybe someday we'll find out if the supposed new album is ever to be finished...13+ and counting...
PS - Can you imagine Keith trying to sing backup vocals on Getta Grip or England Lost?
Probably not, especially when they were rejected by Keith himself...maybe a few grunts and there but that's about it.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 05:40 by Hairball.
To my ears, the 2009 remasters are all brickwalled to death, and Dirty Work is no exception. I'm a member of the rare species of Dirty Work appreciators, I find it a very good, in parts even great album, and I was not happy with the sound of the original CD even. Normally I'm definitely not among the ones who sing the praise of vinyl. I don't like the crackling and the static noise and all that, and I give a flying f*ck on that type of sonic sentimentality (apart from the fact that the old vinyls often have rather limited dynamics) but for listening to Dirty Work I clearly prefer my 32-year-old vinyl copy because it has a better mix (or so I think). It's a pity DW was not included in the 1994 Virgin remasters, which generally sound good to me.
Of the post-loggerheads albums B2B sounds pretty OK to me. I'm not always fond of the sound of SW, VL to me is a story in itself (still don't know what to make of the album), and ABB was sonically butchered. Like they squeezed the sound in a tuna can and sealed the lid.
As Doxa mentioned Keith’s CH, what definitely sets CH apart not only from other (primarily later) Stones albums but most of today’s popular music is the sound and how the album was recorded. There’s air, voices and instruments sound natural, and the music breathes in the rooms where it was recorded (in fact, some songs almost sound like field recordings). The sound of the 2002 leaks reminds me of that, and to these ears it would be a pleasure to experience a Stones album recorded in a similar spirit.
Not really. He (or rather, his voice) simply wouldn't fit in, I believe (but I didn’t listen to GGAG and EL more often than I had to).
No problem, in my book, "One Hit" is a damn great song, any appreciation of it is welcome!
Alternative strategy: to do a cover version and have Keith (or Mick, or Ronnie, or Charlie) guest on it …
___________________________________
Well ...Would we be allowed to talk about Stealing My Heart, then? Bahahahaha
In seriousness those are the two strongest tracks of the bunch .. easily. However you know.. Everyone has their picks ha.
Ian
“Our version is, to me, much better—but that’s just my opinion” Steve Jordan
[www.wsj.com]
“We cut it, and it’s great,” Jordan says. “Again, that sounds weird. What I mean to say is we really had a great time doing it. Keith was looking for a new song to bring in [to the Stones], so he asked me if I minded if he brought it in, and I said, ‘No.’ So he brought it in and they liked it, and they ended up recording it. We gave them our version to listen to. We have a version, it’s done. It has a different flavor, an additional vocal, Meegan [Voss, Jordan’s wife] singing this counterpoint thing. It’s a little different, Keith is playing all of the guitars and the bass. That’s all I can say, I can’t say much more.” [kearth101.radio.com]
Mick's "uuuuu biiibeee" and 'na na na na na na' are horrible!!! Live version it's embarassing. He has ruined this song.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 09:56 by KRiffhard.
...it was, as always, a beauty on "The Worst" (VL)...
I don't think one should make too many parallers between performing live shows and creating new music. No Jagger or any of the band are there on stage creating something 'novel' or making any sort of artistic statements but just making as good show as possible. The Stones are professional performers or, if you like, entertainers. And especially for Jagger to put a Jagger show there are more pragmatic things to be considered than that of 'am I inspired to sing this song'. My guess would be that the latter kind of thought would be the last one in his last, above it will be things like 'am I able to deliver it right', 'can the band deliver it right', 'how I move', 'how can I hold my horses in order to keep my energy level to able to make the show through', 'how will the lights work', 'how is the crowd responding', etc. They are there trying their best to give the people what they want, and thereby making them happy and feeling they get something for their investment. And, as we know, the main vehicle for that is to play as many 'war horses' as possible and play them as well as they can. Those songs are tested, and I guess for Jagger the most important criterion in picking up a song is simply how it works in a live context. Those do. I don't think Keith - or any of them - are any different. Of course they do some 'obscure' songs just for the sake of trying them, giving some variance to the show, or to please us die-hards, but those songs come and go, while the bulk of the show always consists of those signature 'winner' songs.
ADDITION: my point was not to 'judge' the nature of a Rolling Stones show, anyone can have their own opinions of its 'artistic' merits. But my point was that of showing that if Jagger doesn't feel like being inspired by Keith's latest umpteenth and probably degenarated variant of "Jumping Jack Flash" riff in the studio, that doesn't prevent him the next day to perform his ass off with Keith "Jumping Jack Flash" for 50 000 adoring people.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 15:42 by Doxa.
It appears that the compromise was that Mick brings in better-developed demos whereas Keith brings in ideas for songs or tries to come up with things in the studio only, to the effect that Mick got some of his demoed songs on the album and Keith got his way on a couple of other tracks. B2B might be a good estimate. Keith said in interviews that the songs for SW were written together with Mick within 10 days in Barbados, and that he had written ~150 songs for VL. To what extent Keith is making up things here is a different question. For example, we do have Keith’s acoustic guitar demos for Sad Sad Sad and a couple more songs for SW, so he can’t have gone to the writing session completely unprepared, and neither did Mick, I guess.
Maybe I missed something but it appears to me that most information about their song-writing strategies and approaches (or troubles) come from Keith or his camp and that Mick doesn’t really talk about that a lot, so our picture maybe not exactly balanced.
To judge from what little actual information transpires to us lesser beings, this time Keith doesn’t want to stick to the rules and wants to work out stuff in cooperation rather than enhance existing demo versions of (Mick’s) songs. I guess Mick simply prefers a different way of writing/working, that when he has written a song he has a fairly good idea how it should sound and how it should be played and doesn’t want to have to argue too much about it. In that case, imagine Mick has spent a lot of time and work on a song to get it right, and then comes Keith in the studio and starts to debate every little detail or wants to change everything - must also be quite annoying. We (or at list, I) just never hear too much about these things from Mick’s side and perspective.
edit:
regarding recent tours, IMHO Doxa has summed it up well. I'm not even sure if we die-hards figure as much in their set list calculations as we prefer to believe.
another edit:
I also believe that live shows and studio work should be seen as different areas these days. The whole scene has changed in that tours are no longer done to support a now album but function independetly (or new albums are rather made to support impending tours), all the more in the case of seasoned veterans such as the Stones. In a way, the Stones have become a touring band like the Grateful Dead in their later years (although with the Dead, the war horses rather were their complete repertoire). Also think of Miles Davis, whose work live and in the studio were two rather different affairs from the late 60s onwards.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 18:07 by doitywoik.
Sure it was this thread? Can't remember such a post but I may have missed a page or two out of the 163 ...
edit:
I remember posts (by georgelicks, I think) saying that Universal execs weren't totally happy with what they've heard of the new material, something along the lines of uneven or unbalanced, and part of it only mediocre stuff. But that's already old news.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-16 21:41 by doitywoik.
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Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 14, 2018 10:23
Only under the influence
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: April 14, 2018 17:57
Quote
Hairball
Oooh nice doitywoik - that's a keeper!Quote
doitywoik
I'm speculating now - I could even imagine that it was clear that Don't Stop, Keys and whatever the third one of Mick's was would go on 40 Licks even before the Stones had recorded a single note. I'm pretty sure they were specifically designed (or chosen) for that purpose, and that Mick brought them to the studio as by and large complete and worked out songs. I remember an interview with Mick from around that time in which he said that Don't Stop was specifically written with a stadium-crowd audience in mind, so he didn't want to use it for a solo album but for the Stones. So Don't Stop apparently early on was meant to be a/the new song to be played on the tour.
That makes sense regarding the origins of the dorky Don't Stop, the lame Keys, and the cheesy Stealing my heart - a shame isn't it.
And I also recall Mick stating Don't Stop was written with a live audience/concert setting in mind...yawn.
The only memorable part was the state of the art mini doohicky camera that Ronnie had attached to the neck of his guitar visually it was great.
Am I the only one here who likes Keys, Stealing My Heart and to a lesser degree (the rather light-weight) Don't Stop (I find the guitar sound of that song appealing) ? The track I dont like very much is Keith's song, Losing My Touch. Those four songs were the sole reason for buying the 40 Licks cd anyway, for me. Completist that I try to be, I didnt bother to get the GRRR cd set, although I think One More Shot is a pretty decent song.
Having listened to the leaked 2002 songs I feel more confident that they actually should be able to come up with a listenable new album.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
IanBillen
()
Date: April 14, 2018 23:29
Quote
HairballQuote
IanBillen___________________________________Quote
Hairball
I'm listening to Cried Out right now based on your comment and yes a very good tune. Kind of a soulful bluesy R&B tune that sounds as if it's been from a bygone era - though I have to say the vocals could have been a bit more subtle/restrained (it grates a bit), but I suppose Mick is truly baring his soul in this. Similar style to his singing on Down in the Hole (which I love), yet taken much further here. Overall a bit clunky here and there (and a bit sappy), but could have possibly evolved into a great tune in the latter era. Great keyboards - I'm a sucker for that particular sound.
Now listening to U Don't Wanna again as it was a standout upon first listen, but now I'm hearing shades of Dire Straights Money For Nothing (waiting for Sting to come in singing "I want my mtv") w/ a similar sounding chord structure- until the chorus part comes in. I do like the extended jam of it though, and Mick's vocals are nice.
I LOVE listening to outtakes and rough versions of songs. I thoroughly enjoyed this ...and the quality for a bootleg or whatever you may call it is as good as it can get.
With that said the songs we have here are not album worthy. They are songs .. played by The Rolling Stones .. that are all B stock material. It isnt album worthy and they are not album worthy songs. Still GREAT to just hear though .. I really enjoy it. Listening again for the third time right now.
As for Don't Stop and Keys to Your Love being B stock material and not album worthy I would agree, yet they ended up slapping them onto a Greatest Hits album for crying out loud! Some of the other tunes could have easily evolved into decent latter day Stones tunes with a bit of more work and in some cases lots more work, and whose to say that's not exactly what they're doing right now with some of these? Aside from the above two I mention (thankfully they're last in the track order making it easy to skip), I'm enjoying these "rough drafts" more than most of what became of A Bigger Bang. And then you have the early version of Trouble which thankfully was withheld from the Stones (or maybe Mick didn't want to work on it any further). It eventually evolved into a proper tune making it's way on Crosseyed Heart. Nice to hear the skeleton version w/Mick, but the finished result w/Keith singing outshines it by a landslide.
__________________________________
Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love are the strongest tracks. They aren't 110% Stones album ready but they were good enough for a greatest hits thigs . but just barley.
Don't Stop is still a good tune though .. better than Highwire. I listen to it now and again .. a happy ... feel good song.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: April 15, 2018 01:21
Quote
Ian Billen
Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love are the strongest tracks
You might have to turn in your Rolling Stones Fan Membership card after posting evil thoughts like these!
Just kidding of course, but I should mention that if you're ever over to my studio for a beer/bbq/ Stones listening party - the last person who mentioned Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love was banned forever lol.
DON'T STOP...cheers Ian
...!!! _____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 15, 2018 02:04
Quote
SomeGuy
Am I the only one here who likes Keys, Stealing My Heart and to a lesser degree (the rather light-weight) Don't Stop (I find the guitar sound of that song appealing) ? The track I dont like very much is Keith's song, Losing My Touch.
I have no statistical data as to who among the IORRians, or the posters in this thread, likes those songs, or finds them passable, or dislikes them.
Also, that's everybody's personal affair. See it that way: When a bunch of guys find out they like or dislike the same things (here, songs), they talk about it. That's what is happening here with respect to these songs. My advice: if you really like those songs, don't pay too much attention to our ranting. Rather turn up your stereo and enjoy them! I'm with you regarding Losing My Touch. Keith could have made a better effort. To me, it's just run-off-the-mill tinkling that could well have stayed in the archive.
Quote
SomeGuy
Those four songs were the sole reason for buying the 40 Licks cd anyway, for me.
It was the sole reason for me as well, and possibly for many if not most fans (if they bought it at all). After (at that time) 5 years since the last album I was ready to take any breadcrumb they would throw me ...
I tried hard to like the songs but failed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 02:06 by doitywoik.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: April 15, 2018 02:20
doitywoik wrote:
“I'm totally with you as it concerns One More Shot. That song needs Keith's voice, his phrasing and his timing. Mick's voice and style/way of singing simply kills it for me. He is singing the song as if he had swallowed an umbrella before (or suchlike).”
Honestly, I listened to this song this morning and thought:
My favorite part is Mick’s ‘so help me God’ phrase
and, I’d wished there was more story to the lyric, but,
good tune
‘sohelpmeGod’
“I'm totally with you as it concerns One More Shot. That song needs Keith's voice, his phrasing and his timing. Mick's voice and style/way of singing simply kills it for me. He is singing the song as if he had swallowed an umbrella before (or suchlike).”
Honestly, I listened to this song this morning and thought:
My favorite part is Mick’s ‘so help me God’ phrase
and, I’d wished there was more story to the lyric, but,
good tune
‘sohelpmeGod’
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
TeddyB1018
()
Date: April 15, 2018 03:07
Re One More Touch. It’s the mix. Jagger’s vocals of this sort (“Stonesy”) just don’t work as well when they are not fighting to be heard amid the band.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: April 15, 2018 03:48
Quote
doitywoik
I have no statistical data as to who among the IORRians, or the posters in this thread, likes those songs, or finds them passable, or dislikes them.
Haha, that's a good advice and that's how things should go like! Unfortunately, in a discussion group like ours the things aren't always that simple in practise. I learned that when CROSSEYED HEART - a kind of Second Coming of Jesus for some folks here - was released. There was this long thread full of appraisal of the album, and I made the mistake of 'spoiling the party' there with my not-so-appraisal-like remarks, since I didn't hear the awesomeness most of the people were hearing there. A horrible experience altogether, and I mostly blame myself for that. Since then I've decided to keep the critical thoughts within myself, and only tend to say something if I have something 'positive' to say (I am not any purist in that sense, like in any other, so I might say something about critical occasionally). Fortunately all the Stones-related stuff released since then - the blues album, Jagger's solo single - has been easy ones for me to be positive about.
Generally, it is the social psychological effect in places like ours doing some twisted tricks occasionally. It doesn't need to be many folks, but if those folks love a bit too much their own opinions, they tend to repeat them again and again, and there are some other folks sharing the opinions, and doing the same, adding more fuel to the tank, the whole atmosphere is soon pretty much domimated by those opinions, no matter how little actual 'support' there actually is for them (I know I've been one of those 'guilty ones' here traditionally, with all those talks about 'Vegas Era' and everything). With that remark I wasn't referring to that CROSSEYED HEART thread, since there was actually a rather strong consensus about the quality of the album, only a couple of us differing from the mainstream stance.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 03:51 by Doxa.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: April 15, 2018 04:01
LOL new album thread, I am revisiting Dirty Work remaster 2009
on my brand new Spotify account.
I don’t like the ‘computer sound albums’ after Tattoo You
(exception Blue & Lonesome, they dirtied that up, I do not know the terms/ analog)
I am saying nothing new, others have said exact same thing.
One part of Crosseyed Heart I loved was the SOUND AND THE PRODUCTION.
It was mixed with Keith Richards ears- those exquisite inputs and the timing from God.
on my brand new Spotify account.
I don’t like the ‘computer sound albums’ after Tattoo You
(exception Blue & Lonesome, they dirtied that up, I do not know the terms/ analog)
I am saying nothing new, others have said exact same thing.
One part of Crosseyed Heart I loved was the SOUND AND THE PRODUCTION.
It was mixed with Keith Richards ears- those exquisite inputs and the timing from God.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 15, 2018 04:17
Quote
35love
doitywoik wrote:
“I'm totally with you as it concerns One More Shot. That song needs Keith's voice, his phrasing and his timing. Mick's voice and style/way of singing simply kills it for me. He is singing the song as if he had swallowed an umbrella before (or suchlike).”
Honestly, I listened to this song this morning and thought:
My favorite part is Mick’s ‘so help me God’ phrase
Sure you're not confusing this with One Hit To The Body? I can't recall any "So help me God" in OMS - or is that somewhere in the fade-out?
Maybe they should have shared vocal duties. To me, the intro verse ("Ooh baby, I got a message for you ...") still cries out for Keith to sing it. Farther into the song things could be seen differently. Singing the chorus together ("Give me one more shot ...") could have sounded cool, for example. The crucifixion part wouldn't fit Keith. I was already wondering if that part was perhaps Mick's contribution to the song.
@Teddy,
that's an interesting aspect (that I didn't really think of) - the mix. What if Mick's voice weren't processed but just his natural voice, and if he sang it without his usual manierisms? Might well make a difference. I wish we could compare the Grrr version to the Winos' version.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Tate
()
Date: April 15, 2018 04:52
M+K harmonies are super rare in recent years, in studio recordings and on stage. I don't understand this AT ALL. They harmonize so beautifully together. If I were one of the lucky producers (lol... those poor guys), I'd insist on M+K vocal harmonies all over the place.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:11
Listening again to the "new" tune When I Call Your Name right now, and it's a shame they never finished it - it's soooo close to being there! In fact, everything is seemingly there except for the vocals (and maybe some lyrics), and maybe a nice little guitar solo. Not knocking Mick as he's clearly still working out the kinks (even an awkward attempt at falsetto near the beginning), but the fact is it's such a Keith-ish style tune musically that maybe Mick balked at taking it further. Great keyboards and the guitars are so nice, and the way Charlie kicks it up as the song progresses...great stuff. Again not knocking Mick, but have to say the vocals as they are really ruin the experience for me (sounds as if he's whining through his nostrils towards the end of the tune), and wish there was a way to delete them from the mix. On a positive note, maybe some day Keith will revisit and finish it for himself - his vocal mannerisms would be just what the Dr. ordered - wonder why he didn't work it out for Crosseyed Heart. I suppose that's part of what makes some of these so great - being gifted with gems that could have and should have made the cut (either Stones or solo), but for one reason or another were buried in the sands of time.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
JumpingKentFlash
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:15
Quote
DoxaQuote
doitywoik
I have no statistical data as to who among the IORRians, or the posters in this thread, likes those songs, or finds them passable, or dislikes them.
Haha, that's a good advice and that's how things should go like! Unfortunately, in a discussion group like ours the things aren't always that simple in practise. I learned that when CROSSEYED HEART - a kind of Second Coming of Jesus for some folks here - was released. There was this long thread full of appraisal of the album, and I made the mistake of 'spoiling the party' there with my not-so-appraisal-like remarks, since I didn't hear the awesomeness most of the people were hearing there. A horrible experience altogether, and I mostly blame myself for that. Since then I've decided to keep the critical thoughts within myself, and only tend to say something if I have something 'positive' to say (I am not any purist in that sense, like in any other, so I might say something about critical occasionally). Fortunately all the Stones-related stuff released since then - the blues album, Jagger's solo single - has been easy ones for me to be positive about.
Generally, it is the social psychological effect in places like ours doing some twisted tricks occasionally. It doesn't need to be many folks, but if those folks love a bit too much their own opinions, they tend to repeat them again and again, and there are some other folks sharing the opinions, and doing the same, adding more fuel to the tank, the whole atmosphere is soon pretty much domimated by those opinions, no matter how little actual 'support' there actually is for them (I know I've been one of those 'guilty ones' here traditionally, with all those talks about 'Vegas Era' and everything). With that remark I wasn't referring to that CROSSEYED HEART thread, since there was actually a rather strong consensus about the quality of the album, only a couple of us differing from the mainstream stance.
- Doxa
Well in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different way and without fighting and by trying to make it clear, and by considering each and every one's opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.
JumpingKentFlash
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:17
I'm not sure if their voices still blend as nicely as they used to, Keith's voice has changed a lot over the years. But it's difficult to tell if it is never been done again.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:27
Interesting thoughts here about "One More Shot". I was thinking that song particularly when in the other thread there was a discussion that Keith's songs probably do not make MIck 'click' any longer. I think it is a good point by Teddy if the song would have been mixed differently, Jagger would not sound so 'anomaly' like, but more natural to the whole.
But I still tend to think, with doitywork, that the song simply "needs Keith's voice, his phrasing and timing". Which is to say, for me, that the song by lyrical and melodic constitution simply doesn't fit for Jagger to sing. Probably he might added there something (like doitywork suggested) but it still to me sounds very much as an idiosyncratic Keith Richards song: those fragmentary phrases, no continuity in melody, dramatic pauses, and the lyrics - is just something so pure Richards, and Jagger seemingly didn't even try to translate to suit to him. If he had been properly 'Jaggerized' there would have been much more words, and the melody being a much more coherent, non-fragmentaric story from the singer's point of view. Listen, for example, the vocal melody of 'original' "Trouble" ("Just Before/Because"), and how Jagger sings that 'properly' from note to note, and compare that to the version Keith ends up delivering in the finished version of "Trouble" - with all that idisosyncratic Richards style of reducing the amount of words, even the notes just referring to the right key or melody idea, all covered with the art of silence - that of dramatic liitle pauses here and there. Then, think of 'I'm all yours Jack' (which I think can be the least convincing moment Jagger ever has released on a record) and all that:
Oooh baby, I got a message for you
You got me doing something
I thought I'd never will do
Give me one more, one more shot
And it's all I got
Give you one more shot
And take me back
I'm all yours Jack
Yeah you got me freakin'
Yeah I'm over heat, just when things are sweet
You can't meet on the street
Jagger might do some damn stupid lyrics by his own right, but that's not his style. But by contrast, for the guy who wrote "Take It So Hard" and delivered it with 'no hostages taken' attitude, that that might even sound convincing.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 05:29 by Doxa.
But I still tend to think, with doitywork, that the song simply "needs Keith's voice, his phrasing and timing". Which is to say, for me, that the song by lyrical and melodic constitution simply doesn't fit for Jagger to sing. Probably he might added there something (like doitywork suggested) but it still to me sounds very much as an idiosyncratic Keith Richards song: those fragmentary phrases, no continuity in melody, dramatic pauses, and the lyrics - is just something so pure Richards, and Jagger seemingly didn't even try to translate to suit to him. If he had been properly 'Jaggerized' there would have been much more words, and the melody being a much more coherent, non-fragmentaric story from the singer's point of view. Listen, for example, the vocal melody of 'original' "Trouble" ("Just Before/Because"), and how Jagger sings that 'properly' from note to note, and compare that to the version Keith ends up delivering in the finished version of "Trouble" - with all that idisosyncratic Richards style of reducing the amount of words, even the notes just referring to the right key or melody idea, all covered with the art of silence - that of dramatic liitle pauses here and there. Then, think of 'I'm all yours Jack' (which I think can be the least convincing moment Jagger ever has released on a record) and all that:
Oooh baby, I got a message for you
You got me doing something
I thought I'd never will do
Give me one more, one more shot
And it's all I got
Give you one more shot
And take me back
I'm all yours Jack
Yeah you got me freakin'
Yeah I'm over heat, just when things are sweet
You can't meet on the street
Jagger might do some damn stupid lyrics by his own right, but that's not his style. But by contrast, for the guy who wrote "Take It So Hard" and delivered it with 'no hostages taken' attitude, that that might even sound convincing.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 05:29 by Doxa.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:29
LOL I did confuse I’m sorry thanks for correction
‘So help me God’ phrase is ‘One Hit To The Body’ (of course.)
I also wondered if I was getting gushy sentimental but maybe it’s the headlines.
‘So help me God’ phrase is ‘One Hit To The Body’ (of course.)
I also wondered if I was getting gushy sentimental but maybe it’s the headlines.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:34
Quote
doitywoik
I'm not sure if their voices still blend as nicely as they used to, Keith's voice has changed a lot over the years. But it's difficult to tell if it is never been done again.
Micks has changed as well, but when considering the two together, one could still enhance/balance out the other. Some of Micks vocals on B&L were pretty darn good, while at other times it was a bit forced and almost contrived. Keith's voice on his own has never been "pretty" or really even "great" when compared to the truly great Rock and roll singers of all time (including Mick in his prime), but it is definitely unique and maybe a few more cigarettes could fix that lol. Put the two together of them together in a locked room, and maybe the magic will reappear as it did in the old days. Maybe someday we'll find out if the supposed new album is ever to be finished...13+ and counting...
PS - Can you imagine Keith trying to sing backup vocals on Getta Grip or England Lost?
Probably not, especially when they were rejected by Keith himself...maybe a few grunts and there but that's about it.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 05:40 by Hairball.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 15, 2018 05:55
The Ronnie thread reminded me - How could I forget the brick wall
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 15, 2018 07:50
Quote
35love
LOL new album thread, I am revisiting Dirty Work remaster 2009 (...) I don’t like the ‘computer sound albums’ after Tattoo You (...)
To my ears, the 2009 remasters are all brickwalled to death, and Dirty Work is no exception. I'm a member of the rare species of Dirty Work appreciators, I find it a very good, in parts even great album, and I was not happy with the sound of the original CD even. Normally I'm definitely not among the ones who sing the praise of vinyl. I don't like the crackling and the static noise and all that, and I give a flying f*ck on that type of sonic sentimentality (apart from the fact that the old vinyls often have rather limited dynamics) but for listening to Dirty Work I clearly prefer my 32-year-old vinyl copy because it has a better mix (or so I think). It's a pity DW was not included in the 1994 Virgin remasters, which generally sound good to me.
Of the post-loggerheads albums B2B sounds pretty OK to me. I'm not always fond of the sound of SW, VL to me is a story in itself (still don't know what to make of the album), and ABB was sonically butchered. Like they squeezed the sound in a tuna can and sealed the lid.
As Doxa mentioned Keith’s CH, what definitely sets CH apart not only from other (primarily later) Stones albums but most of today’s popular music is the sound and how the album was recorded. There’s air, voices and instruments sound natural, and the music breathes in the rooms where it was recorded (in fact, some songs almost sound like field recordings). The sound of the 2002 leaks reminds me of that, and to these ears it would be a pleasure to experience a Stones album recorded in a similar spirit.
Quote
Hairball
PS - Can you imagine Keith trying to sing backup vocals on Getta Grip or England Lost?
Not really. He (or rather, his voice) simply wouldn't fit in, I believe (but I didn’t listen to GGAG and EL more often than I had to).
Quote
35love
LOL I did confuse I’m sorry thanks for correction
‘So help me God’ phrase is ‘One Hit To The Body’ (of course.)
No problem
, in my book, "One Hit" is a damn great song, any appreciation of it is welcome! Quote
Hairball
I suppose that's part of what makes some of these so great - being gifted with gems that could have and should have made the cut (either Stones or solo), but for one reason or another were buried in the sands of time.
Alternative strategy: to do a cover version and have Keith (or Mick, or Ronnie, or Charlie) guest on it …
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: April 15, 2018 08:39
maybe there's an app so we can get a ticker for that last digit up there.
just don't waste all the excitement on one puny passing year at a time....
...then when they DO release it, we'll have our best energy for it!!!
....otherwise we're glutted up w threads till the 2792 tour and you know it...
....they will have a virtual Altamont too; it's already a done deal....
...they are negoting the AI and AR rights as we speak...
that's right. I know an insider.
just don't waste all the excitement on one puny passing year at a time....
...then when they DO release it, we'll have our best energy for it!!!
....otherwise we're glutted up w threads till the 2792 tour and you know it...
....they will have a virtual Altamont too; it's already a done deal....
...they are negoting the AI and AR rights as we speak...
that's right. I know an insider.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
IanBillen
()
Date: April 15, 2018 09:07
Quote
HairballQuote
Ian Billen
Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love are the strongest tracks
You might have to turn in your Rolling Stones Fan Membership card after posting evil thoughts like these!
Just kidding of course, but I should mention that if you're ever over to my studio for a beer/bbq/ Stones listening party - the last person who mentioned Don't Stop and Keys To Your Love was banned forever lol.
DON'T STOP...cheers Ian
___________________________________
Well ...Would we be allowed to talk about Stealing My Heart, then? Bahahahaha
In seriousness those are the two strongest tracks of the bunch .. easily. However you know.. Everyone has their picks ha.
Ian
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: April 15, 2018 09:16
GRRRRRR.......speaking of which Ian, do you have a favorite of the two tracks that were slapped on to GRRRR for no real reason?
I'm torn between the two - Doom and Gloom is rather generic, while One More Shot isn't much better (though I still would like to hear Keith's solo version which according to Steve Jordan far superior).
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
...speaking of which Ian, do you have a favorite of the two tracks that were slapped on to GRRRR for no real reason?I'm torn between the two - Doom and Gloom is rather generic, while One More Shot isn't much better (though I still would like to hear Keith's solo version which according to Steve Jordan far superior).
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
KRiffhard
()
Date: April 15, 2018 09:53
Quote
Hairball
GRRRRRR....
I'm torn between the two - Doom and Gloom is rather generic, while One More Shot isn't much better (though I still would like to hear Keith's solo version which according to Steve Jordan far superior).
“Our version is, to me, much better—but that’s just my opinion” Steve Jordan
[www.wsj.com]
“We cut it, and it’s great,” Jordan says. “Again, that sounds weird. What I mean to say is we really had a great time doing it. Keith was looking for a new song to bring in [to the Stones], so he asked me if I minded if he brought it in, and I said, ‘No.’ So he brought it in and they liked it, and they ended up recording it. We gave them our version to listen to. We have a version, it’s done. It has a different flavor, an additional vocal, Meegan [Voss, Jordan’s wife] singing this counterpoint thing. It’s a little different, Keith is playing all of the guitars and the bass. That’s all I can say, I can’t say much more.” [kearth101.radio.com]
Mick's "uuuuu biiibeee" and 'na na na na na na' are horrible!!! Live version it's embarassing. He has ruined this song.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 09:56 by KRiffhard.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
RoughJusticeOnYa
()
Date: April 15, 2018 11:49
Quote
Tate
M+K harmonies are super rare in recent years, in studio recordings and on stage. I don't understand this AT ALL. They harmonize so beautifully together. If I were one of the lucky producers (lol... those poor guys), I'd insist on M+K vocal harmonies all over the place.
...it was, as always, a beauty on "The Worst" (VL)...
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 15, 2018 13:18
Perhaps my earlier post belongs on this thread, not a talking about base thread. so here it is.
It's as if Mick has gone down that road (with Keith trying to turn Mick onto his music) so many times he doesn't want to go there any more. The problem is that Mick and Keith need each other creatively, they are the only people on this earth capable of taking each others music to greater heights, it's a pity they don't inspire each other anymore.
A compromise is in order, they have reached stalemate, like some sort of Mexican stand off, i think this has been brewing since these 2002 sessions, possibly as far back as Bridges To Babylon. If they could humour each others musical direction enough go along and give 100 percent of themselves to each others songs, happy in the knowledge that half the album will consist of their own songs, but also helping out on each others at the same time it could work, the way it use to work.
Going through the pages of iorr in recent years we begin to notice more recent Stones albums consist of Mick or Keith's songs, not Mick and Keith's songs.
The only thing i don't understand is this, if Mick has fallen out of love with the Stones old tried and tested demographic, where does that leave him, what is a 75 year old man to do, is it a bit late in life to look for new avenues, why not make a solo album, why go in the studio with Keith if he doesn't inspire him, what did he expect from Keith ??
I actually think Keith ventured into some surprisingly exiting styles himself on Crosseyed Heart with tracks like Amnesia, Something For nothing and Substantial Damage. They sound fresh and new, although obviously not, but it comes across that way from Keith.
I look forward to a Mick solo album now because i am very intrigued as to what music does inspire him now, i have a hunch he has backed himself into a corner, Mick could even be uninspired by his own gifts musically, even bored with his own demos.
Is it surprising after a 13+ year drought, that this long break in creativity could be misconstrued as writers block. It's not being horrible, its a strong probability.
Edit.
Something curious about Mick, he doesn't appear to be uninspired with this music when it comes to playing it live, he's very reluctant to try out new things, or even sing old songs differently, instead he's happy to play pretty much 16 or 17 of the sames songs every night.
This doesn't go along with the idea that Mick is uninspired by Keith's contribution to the Stones sound or songs played.
so here it is.It's as if Mick has gone down that road (with Keith trying to turn Mick onto his music) so many times he doesn't want to go there any more. The problem is that Mick and Keith need each other creatively, they are the only people on this earth capable of taking each others music to greater heights, it's a pity they don't inspire each other anymore.
A compromise is in order, they have reached stalemate, like some sort of Mexican stand off, i think this has been brewing since these 2002 sessions, possibly as far back as Bridges To Babylon. If they could humour each others musical direction enough go along and give 100 percent of themselves to each others songs, happy in the knowledge that half the album will consist of their own songs, but also helping out on each others at the same time it could work, the way it use to work.
Going through the pages of iorr in recent years we begin to notice more recent Stones albums consist of Mick or Keith's songs, not Mick and Keith's songs.
The only thing i don't understand is this, if Mick has fallen out of love with the Stones old tried and tested demographic, where does that leave him, what is a 75 year old man to do, is it a bit late in life to look for new avenues, why not make a solo album, why go in the studio with Keith if he doesn't inspire him, what did he expect from Keith ??
I actually think Keith ventured into some surprisingly exiting styles himself on Crosseyed Heart with tracks like Amnesia, Something For nothing and Substantial Damage. They sound fresh and new, although obviously not, but it comes across that way from Keith.
I look forward to a Mick solo album now because i am very intrigued as to what music does inspire him now, i have a hunch he has backed himself into a corner, Mick could even be uninspired by his own gifts musically, even bored with his own demos.
Is it surprising after a 13+ year drought, that this long break in creativity could be misconstrued as writers block. It's not being horrible, its a strong probability.
Edit.
Something curious about Mick, he doesn't appear to be uninspired with this music when it comes to playing it live, he's very reluctant to try out new things, or even sing old songs differently, instead he's happy to play pretty much 16 or 17 of the sames songs every night.
This doesn't go along with the idea that Mick is uninspired by Keith's contribution to the Stones sound or songs played.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: April 15, 2018 15:01
Quote
keithsman
Something curious about Mick, he doesn't appear to be uninspired with this music when it comes to playing it live, he's very reluctant to try out new things, or even sing old songs differently, instead he's happy to play pretty much 16 or 17 of the sames songs every night.
This doesn't go along with the idea that Mick is uninspired by Keith's contribution to the Stones sound or songs played.
I don't think one should make too many parallers between performing live shows and creating new music. No Jagger or any of the band are there on stage creating something 'novel' or making any sort of artistic statements but just making as good show as possible. The Stones are professional performers or, if you like, entertainers. And especially for Jagger to put a Jagger show there are more pragmatic things to be considered than that of 'am I inspired to sing this song'. My guess would be that the latter kind of thought would be the last one in his last, above it will be things like 'am I able to deliver it right', 'can the band deliver it right', 'how I move', 'how can I hold my horses in order to keep my energy level to able to make the show through', 'how will the lights work', 'how is the crowd responding', etc. They are there trying their best to give the people what they want, and thereby making them happy and feeling they get something for their investment. And, as we know, the main vehicle for that is to play as many 'war horses' as possible and play them as well as they can. Those songs are tested, and I guess for Jagger the most important criterion in picking up a song is simply how it works in a live context. Those do. I don't think Keith - or any of them - are any different. Of course they do some 'obscure' songs just for the sake of trying them, giving some variance to the show, or to please us die-hards, but those songs come and go, while the bulk of the show always consists of those signature 'winner' songs.
ADDITION: my point was not to 'judge' the nature of a Rolling Stones show, anyone can have their own opinions of its 'artistic' merits. But my point was that of showing that if Jagger doesn't feel like being inspired by Keith's latest umpteenth and probably degenarated variant of "Jumping Jack Flash" riff in the studio, that doesn't prevent him the next day to perform his ass off with Keith "Jumping Jack Flash" for 50 000 adoring people.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 15:42 by Doxa.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 15, 2018 17:50
Quote
keithsman
A compromise is in order, they have reached stalemate, like some sort of Mexican stand off, i think this has been brewing since these 2002 sessions, possibly as far back as Bridges To Babylon.
It appears that the compromise was that Mick brings in better-developed demos whereas Keith brings in ideas for songs or tries to come up with things in the studio only, to the effect that Mick got some of his demoed songs on the album and Keith got his way on a couple of other tracks. B2B might be a good estimate. Keith said in interviews that the songs for SW were written together with Mick within 10 days in Barbados, and that he had written ~150 songs for VL. To what extent Keith is making up things here is a different question. For example, we do have Keith’s acoustic guitar demos for Sad Sad Sad and a couple more songs for SW, so he can’t have gone to the writing session completely unprepared, and neither did Mick, I guess.
Maybe I missed something but it appears to me that most information about their song-writing strategies and approaches (or troubles) come from Keith or his camp and that Mick doesn’t really talk about that a lot, so our picture maybe not exactly balanced.
To judge from what little actual information transpires to us lesser beings, this time Keith doesn’t want to stick to the rules and wants to work out stuff in cooperation rather than enhance existing demo versions of (Mick’s) songs. I guess Mick simply prefers a different way of writing/working, that when he has written a song he has a fairly good idea how it should sound and how it should be played and doesn’t want to have to argue too much about it. In that case, imagine Mick has spent a lot of time and work on a song to get it right, and then comes Keith in the studio and starts to debate every little detail or wants to change everything - must also be quite annoying. We (or at list, I) just never hear too much about these things from Mick’s side and perspective.
edit:
regarding recent tours, IMHO Doxa has summed it up well. I'm not even sure if we die-hards figure as much in their set list calculations as we prefer to believe.
another edit:
I also believe that live shows and studio work should be seen as different areas these days. The whole scene has changed in that tours are no longer done to support a now album but function independetly (or new albums are rather made to support impending tours), all the more in the case of seasoned veterans such as the Stones. In a way, the Stones have become a touring band like the Grateful Dead in their later years (although with the Dead, the war horses rather were their complete repertoire). Also think of Miles Davis, whose work live and in the studio were two rather different affairs from the late 60s onwards.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-15 18:07 by doitywoik.
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: April 16, 2018 14:45
Quote
DoxaQuote
keithsman
Something curious about Mick, he doesn't appear to be uninspired with this music when it comes to playing it live, he's very reluctant to try out new things, or even sing old songs differently, instead he's happy to play pretty much 16 or 17 of the sames songs every night.
This doesn't go along with the idea that Mick is uninspired by Keith's contribution to the Stones sound or songs played.
I don't think one should make too many parallers between performing live shows and creating new music. No Jagger or any of the band are there on stage creating something 'novel' or making any sort of artistic statements but just making as good show as possible. The Stones are professional performers or, if you like, entertainers. And especially for Jagger to put a Jagger show there are more pragmatic things to be considered than that of 'am I inspired to sing this song'. My guess would be that the latter kind of thought would be the last one in his last, above it will be things like 'am I able to deliver it right', 'can the band deliver it right', 'how I move', 'how can I hold my horses in order to keep my energy level to able to make the show through', 'how will the lights work', 'how is the crowd responding', etc. They are there trying their best to give the people what they want, and thereby making them happy and feeling they get something for their investment. And, as we know, the main vehicle for that is to play as many 'war horses' as possible and play them as well as they can. Those songs are tested, and I guess for Jagger the most important criterion in picking up a song is simply how it works in a live context. Those do. I don't think Keith - or any of them - are any different. Of course they do some 'obscure' songs just for the sake of trying them, giving some variance to the show, or to please us die-hards, but those songs come and go, while the bulk of the show always consists of those signature 'winner' songs.
ADDITION: my point was not to 'judge' the nature of a Rolling Stones show, anyone can have their own opinions of its 'artistic' merits. But my point was that of showing that if Jagger doesn't feel like being inspired by Keith's latest umpteenth and probably degenarated variant of "Jumping Jack Flash" riff in the studio, that doesn't prevent him the next day to perform his ass off with Keith "Jumping Jack Flash" for 50 000 adoring people.
- Doxa
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
JumpingKentFlash
()
Date: April 16, 2018 20:53
Where is that post a few pages back, that mentions some rc exec mediating between Mick and Keef? Can’t find it.
JumpingKentFlash
JumpingKentFlash
Re: Another Stones studio album in 2018
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 16, 2018 21:38
Quote
JumpingKentFlash
Where is that post a few pages back, that mentions some rc exec mediating between Mick and Keef? Can’t find it.
Sure it was this thread? Can't remember such a post but I may have missed a page or two out of the 163 ...
edit:
I remember posts (by georgelicks, I think) saying that Universal execs weren't totally happy with what they've heard of the new material, something along the lines of uneven or unbalanced, and part of it only mediocre stuff. But that's already old news.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-16 21:41 by doitywoik.
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